Tactical Squad Heavy Weapons

[captain sox]

Hey everybody,

 

I've never really seen why heavy weapons are taken in Tac Squads. I know they are cheap, but to me they hinder the squad. You can break it down into 2 combat squads, but really, you are minimising the effectiveness of the squad (s) just to be able to use that heavy weapon. To me, if you want heavy weapons, pay the extra cost and take Devs. In my opinion, you are limited when you take a heavy in a Tac.

 

So 3 questions,

 

Do you take heavy weapons? What do you normally take? How do you use your squad effectively?

 

Thanks. I'm not looking to start a controversy, just trying to learn how to use Tacs effectively.

[puck]

I use C:SM for my DAs and I take a Multi Melta/plasma gun/combi plasma squad in drop pods fairly often. All the ranges match (24"/12") so you're not wasting shots to get one weapon to fire. The MM is a free upgrade. And they work pretty good as objective sitters because no tanks want to go near them and even elite infantry are scared of 4 plasma shots and at MM shot at 12 inches.

 

In general I think heavy weapons on tacticals work best when the squad is dropped and won't be moving much (objective games). If your army is set up to have the tacticals on the move as many people do I'd stick with one of the free heavy upgrades specifically the missile launcher so you can hit targets of opportunity like side/rear armor but I wouldn't put points in it as it won't be shooting many turns.

[king tiger 101]

I had 30 tacticals, no heavy weapons, just fists and melts, walk forward until something can be charged or shot allot

[HJL]

Interesting topic. I have pondered the same myself. A cheap heavy weapon is worth it i think, you wont be on the move every turn and if that cheap missile launcher takes out a dread or something then it was well worth it. I think the biggest problem with heavy weapons are that people often feel that they have to sit still in order to make value of them. This gives your opponent a stationary opponent to fight which is much easier.

 

I take plasma cannons on all my tac squads. It gives them a heavy punch in the turns they sit on an objective.

[Cactus]

I always include a heavy weapon in tactical squads, because that's how space marines roll. My collection lacks sufficient transport vehicles to go zipping around so they're only really effective when I split into combat squads. MSU sergeant & special weapon squads supported by MSU firebases is quite fun. When I do this I tend to use a cheap company master and command squad as troubleshooters or a counter-assault unit.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I always take one (usually PC or LC), all you lose is one bolter shot at 12", but you gain the tactical flexiliby to kill tanks and MCs if you stand still. It is a must in my PA lists.

 

:angry:

stobz

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I always take one, just in case. usually the ubiquitous missile launcher.

[pueriexdeus]

All my Tac Sqds come with either a ML or PC. I combat Sqd them and leave the HW on the obj with the Devs.

[Brother Kovash]

I currently only have 2 tac squads ready to go, and each has a multi-melta. I haven't used them in a long time, but they've always earned their points and then some when I fielded them.

[Raven Angel]

In my experiance Devs are only really a safe bet when you have tons of points to spend or are garented to be fighting from a defensive position and not having to advance alot. My advice for general is take 4 tac squads, all with a HvyWep in it. Advace the Squads in paires so you always have big guns to shoot. Also take Razorback IFVs when you can for more firepower. Your squads will likly take loses from shoooting and They will fit in the IFV after a few casualties. Also the IFVs will force the other guy to chose between them or the Tac squads. They might also draw fire away from other tanks if your opponet isn't overly focused on them. Plasma, missles, and Hvy Bolters are my weapons of choice. I tend to use melta guns as the special weapons cause the range is the same as the Plasma gun and it won't blow up. This for me tends to be a good setup for turnies as it is flexable and is a good solid block of 40 guys. Of cours if its only one game and you know the opponet and what army hes bring talor the loadout. Odds are he will be doing the same.

[whiteraven17708]

I try to run 3 tacts, i almost always run a missle launcher and a assault weapon of some sort i usually put power weapon or fist on sarg for a little extra punch, combat squad em, 4 bolters and missle launcher in a good firing position sarge assault weapon and 3 bolters ride a rhino into the thick but i keep em together so they act like a squad of 15 with 3 power weapon a good grip of flame thrower / melta to teardown numbers before assault and i get three long range support in three different spots on the table. seems to work pretty good usually

[shabbadoo]

Heavy weapons in Tactical Squads are very useful; especially if you combat squad the unit.

 

First configuration: The Sergeant and special weapon marine form the core of a close assault combat squad. I prefer meltaguns and flamers, as, unlike rapid firing plasma guns, they allow the unit to still charge if they fire. The heavy weapon forms the core of a supporting fire combat squad. Your close assault combat squads advance to harass the enemy/take objectives, backed up by shooting from the supporting fire combat squads. For the heavy weapons I prefer missile launchers and heavy bolters, as both weapons can be added to the other marines' bolter fire to take down infantry well enough, plus being able to toss out a krak missile instead can be useful too. And they are cheap points-wise. Of my six 3rd Company Tactical Squads, two have heavy bolter/missile launcher/multi-melta options, two have heavy bolter/missile launcher options, and two have lascannon/plasma cannon options. That is what I usually do, but there is one other useful configuration that people will recognize.

 

Second configuration: Combat Squad the unit as usual. In this case though, the Sergeant on his own forms the core of the close assault combat squad, so he and four basic Tactical Marines are in the unit. The special weapon and heavy weapon form the core of the supporting fire combat squad in this case, and the special weapon chosen should be a plasma gun, mainly as it has range, but its decent Strength and AP don't hurt either. :D You pair the plasma gun with either a lascannon (i.e. "las-plas" configuration) or a plasma cannon. The configuration of the combat squads is more defensive, favoring "stand and shoot" over "get up close and kill stuff".

 

So, that is why heavy weapons in Tactical Squads are useful. Well, that and you may have noticed that heavy weapons are cheaper for Tactical Squads than they are for Devastator Squads (there are reasons for that, but I will not go into them here). http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e245/btmcrae/dasmiley.gif

[riddles]

It's opportunity cost. For a very minimal investment, you threaten a range of targets your squad doesn't normally (namely vehicles or 2+ dudes). You don't always have to fire it, and you may not fire it once during a game, but when the opportunity coems, you'll be glad you had it.

 

It's an easier choice for vanilla marines because they get freebies. slightly more of a difficult choice for us dangles.

[Alys Dwr]

9 times out of 10 i don't use heavies in tactical squads.

 

I prefer 10 men with a power weapon and flamer/melta all bundled up in a rhino. The main reason for this is the survivability over a 5 man squad, however the destructive potential shouldn't be overlooked. I've always been an advocate of weighty bolter fire - force the enemy to roll enough dice and things will die. Rapid firing bolters, pistols and then the charge is suprisingly weighty against most units.

 

I used to run with a heavy weapon and combat squad them, but all too often i would find i had four marines with bolters who were lucky if they got to fire once through the entire game. Heavys are now reserved for devs and dreads who can be optimised for harrasing the enemy at range.

 

Al

[Master Avoghai]

I agree with riddles, it's'just a matter of opportunity.

 

For its cost an HW does not have to shoot every turn to be valuable.

 

Contrary to devastator squads, tactical are nearly compulsory and can claim objective. Thus, you'll HAVE to spend 180pts for them. The actual cost of the HW is 5-15pts...

So yes you can lose 2 or 3 turn not firing with your HW and the loss is not that big.

 

On the other hand devies are expensive, not compulsory and occupy a slot that can be use for a couple of vindi or a land raider... Contrary to those they cannot move and shoot. Hence, if you don't shoot 2 or 3 turn it's'a big loss cos maybe you could have invest those points in a LR that could have move 6" and fire with its 2 LC at 2 different target.

 

See? In the 1st situation, you think : would my squad would have done better without an HW?" In the 2nd situation, you think : "wouldn't have done better with another squad?"

 

So what is the biggest risk of cost/effectivness? Tactical with HWs or a devi squad?

[Brother Immolator]

2 squads usually plasma cannon and flamer.Combat squaded and castled in objectives supported by a dev squad each.

 

Third squad is bolters/plasma gun/flamer/fist and used at counter charge/rapid fire.

[march10k]

I think you're missing the point of tactical squads if you treat them like melee units that happen to score. They're supposed to be jacks of all trades. When faced with an enemy who will have to come to you if you don't go to him because he has basically no shooting, like orks and nids, you're going to want to wait for him to come to you and make him assault into cover. In that situation, you'll miss the heavy weapon. If a given tactical squad is assigned to camp a home objective, you're going to miss that heavy weapon. At the same time, if you can't emotionally bring yourself to pack up that heavy weapon and move instead of shooting if you need to reach an objective or if you're facing a gunline that melts in melee (guard or tau), the heavy may be a stone around your neck. Of course, the gun isn't the problem, you are! Tactical squads should always be ten men, and should always have a heavy, a special, and a fist. And you should always be prepared to use or not use any or all of their capabilities in a given game.

 

They aren't melee units, and they aren't shooty units. They're swiss army knives. Use them as such.

[Tamwulf]

Always add at least a Missile Launcher. It's +10 points, and the model still has a Bolt Pistol, so you can still move and fire at least a Bolt Pistol shot. It adds tactical flexibility to the squad- you can Combat Squad them, and have the Missile Launcher and 4 models sit on an objective, while the Sarge, special weapon, and 3 troopers go out hunting. Or you can keep them as one big squad- hopefully with a Plasmagun and Missile Launcher so they can sit back and shoot at stuff. If you Combat Squad with a Razorback, you now have two heavy weapons, one special weapon, and two scoring units- one that can sit on your objective, and the other one to claim or contest other objectives. These guys are good with shooting and OK in melee combat. The only way you are going to excel/win with a Tactical Squad is by having a lot of Tactical Squads- like 4-6 of them. Razorback Spam FTW! If you are only running two of them, it will become much harder to contest/claim objectives. This is straying a bit into army composition, so...

 

For pure shooting, I'm going to use a Devastator Squad and a Razorback, or Command Squad with special weapons. Or even a Terminator Squad with SB, Cyclone and Assault Cannon.

 

For pure melee, again, Deathwing Terminators, or a properly configured Veteran Squad or Command Squad or Assault Squad.

 

Add at least a Missile Launcher to all your Tactical Squads. It's a very cheap, but very flexible/useful upgrade that will increase the effectiveness of the squad.

 

Using any other Codex for Dark Angels means you are not playing Dark Angels. ;)

[Raven Angel]

Any body still use the "rhino bunker" for their Devis?

[breng77]

It really depends, as DA you can opt to take a 5 man squad with a special weapon, so there is something to be said about doing so. However if you are buying all 10 guys you may as well pay the few extra points for a heavy weapon.

[Brother Immolator]

I think you're missing the point of tactical squads if you treat them like melee units that happen to score. They're supposed to be jacks of all trades. When faced with an enemy who will have to come to you if you don't go to him because he has basically no shooting, like orks and nids, you're going to want to wait for him to come to you and make him assault into cover. In that situation, you'll miss the heavy weapon. If a given tactical squad is assigned to camp a home objective, you're going to miss that heavy weapon. At the same time, if you can't emotionally bring yourself to pack up that heavy weapon and move instead of shooting if you need to reach an objective or if you're facing a gunline that melts in melee (guard or tau), the heavy may be a stone around your neck. Of course, the gun isn't the problem, you are! Tactical squads should always be ten men, and should always have a heavy, a special, and a fist. And you should always be prepared to use or not use any or all of their capabilities in a given game.

 

They aren't melee units, and they aren't shooty units. They're swiss army knives. Use them as such.

 

I believe you missed they way i handle them.Should have mentioned that i try to run all comers list footslogging greenwing(yes i know....).All three of them are meant to hold objectives.Hence the heavy weapons.The flamer is a horde control solution in case i face nids or orks.The third squad is meant to screen the other two and if something gets close that survives the torrent of fire is acting as a wall of shorts.It will either delay or destroy/counter charge the enemy mobs.I have no illusions that they arent dedicated C&C units.But by the time the enemy reaches my lines they have suffered enough casualties to become manageable.

Many advocate the mobility of the tac squads and the jack of all trades.Well without a rhino or a heavy gun,with which you must be stationary all you can do is shoot with bolters or plasma gun.Running around without cover will not help that much.

 

As for the melta guns.I prefer the distance my lasers afford.Sorry lascannons.

 

EDIT:In the current MSU spam game,you will be surprised how effective is a tide of power armor.Most people pack anti-tank by the tone.I currently have no tanks so when they realize all that weapons are virtually not good,and on the opposite side you pack a ton of heavy weapons...well hilarity ensues.