Questions on Righteous Zeal.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Link: to question asked in BT forum.

 

The question in contention is that does a blown up Rhino, killing a Templar, the same as 'enemy shooting' for the purposes of taking a RZ test or is this an indirect death, and so not caused by 'enemy shooting'

 

So what do the chaps of the OR think about this?

[Rider-75]

Never played it that way. Always assumed the Rhino killed my Templar not the Enemy.

 

Maybe I've been doing myself out of an RZ move for years, but it just seems wrong rules wise. Fluff wise it makes sense I guess... But fluff dies not equal rules.

[dswanick]

In the Shooting phase, any Infantry unit (not Jump Infantry) that is not Pinned or Falling Back must take a Morale check if it suffers any casualties from enemy Shooting, not just when it suffers 25% casualties.

 

If an Infantry unit (including any attached characters) is called upon to make a Morale check and passes it, then the unit must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit.

Page 23 – Righteous Zeal

Change “that is not pinned or falling back” to “that has not gone to ground or is not falling back” in the first sentence of the second paragraph.

Sounds pretty straight-forward to me, casualties caused by an expoding Rhino are not casualties caused by 'enemy Shooting' any more than casualties caused by Dangerous Terrain.

 

Imagine the situation - a squad in the Rhino which has just been Destroyed, forcing the unit to disembark. By claiming that the casualty caused by the Exploding Rhino is caused "by enemy Shooting" you move the squad towards the nearest visible enemy. What happens if this causes your unit to move through Dangerous Terrain and take an additional casualty? After all, you wouldn't be moving through Dangerous Terrain if not for the "enemy Shooting", right? Would you claim another Righteous Zeal test and move again? Now what happens at the end of the phase if the units has taken enough casualties to qualify for the 25% casualties in a phase Morale check? Would you now claim a third Righteous Zeal movement in the enemies shooting phase?

 

Even if you argue that the Destroyed - Explodes result casualties are treated as shooting, the Rhino is not an enemy unit so still not "enemy Shooting". So, in my opinion - no. Only casualties directly caused by your opponent's rolling to-hits and to-wounds count, not indirect/ancillary causualties. Otherwise, you might as well claim all casualties after your oppponent's first Shooting phase are indirectly caused by "enemy Shooting", since everything you do during the game is tangentally affected by the fact that your opponent is shooting at you. ;)

[Marshal Severarse]

Just wanted to point out that I think the RZ move ignores diff/dangerous terrain as per consolidate rules, so no worries about losing men during the zeal and getting a further morale test/RZ move.

 

I've always played it that any casualty caused by enemy shooting, even things blown up by the enemy, are maddening/tragic enough that my little black homies zeal forth in anger. Because... the enemy is rolling dice for the explosion of the rhino, to wound etc., same as his bolters firing, or laying a template... I can't get my head around how this is not them causing shooting casualties.

 

Differences of interpretation, I suppose. I've found that in-game disagreements are easily resolved when I start donning armor and reach for my two-hander. This is the 'Reconsider Your Argument' phase of 40k. :)

 

I have an absolutely foolish question... I noticed that this was opened in a separate thread to address a certain crowd, but in my NOOB state, I don't realize who is answering the questions and why I might need to give the answers found here greater consideration. Please enlighten me.

[Jacinda]

I asked the BT player that is here playing today and he said "no." The Rhino was shot but it is not covered by RZ. The troops inside were not the ones being shot.

 

Now one of the other guys is saying the wound was caused by shooting and the BT player says no, the wound was caused by exploding rhino, not enemy shooting.

 

Now they are telling me to quit reading rules sites because they always argue about stupid stuff. So I guess you are on your own :P

[dswanick]

Now one of the other guys is saying the wound was caused by shooting and the BT player says no, the wound was caused by exploding rhino, not enemy shooting.

I agree with this - it's the same reasoning which allows you to take an armor save against Gets Hot! wounds from an AP2 Plasmagun. It's not the Plasmagun/Enemy Shooting which is causing the wound, it's the Special Rule (Gets Hot!/Destroyed - Explodes). And while it's nice and fluffy to think that having your Rhino shot out from under you is enough to frost the knickers of a BT - it's not very RAW.

[Marshal Laeroth]

As I noted in the original thread, I play it as the wounds coming from enemy shooting. The rhino didn't blow itself up. Not to mention, taking the conservative stance where it favors my opponent, helps prevent issues in the game. :cuss

[BT_Wolfe]

Agree with Marshal Laeroth.

 

Its more straight forward to play RZ this way and less issues down the road.

 

'Enemy blows transport. If theres any casualty - RZ'

[nurglez]

Well, if I remember correctly Dark Eldar gain power from pain if they destroy a vehicle and the explosion wipes out an enemy squad, so I would play that it should work, though as no one round here plays black templars it isn't that relevant to me.