So how OP are we anyway?

[dswanick]

'Those grenades are OP': Yeah, but did you also know they're only available on ICs? Kill the character, the grenades go away. Also, Tech-Marines have a single wound, so torrenting attacks onto them works very well. I find it hilarious this is one of the most common complaints, when grenades only affect maybe two units, usually one, in the entire army.

Partially untrue. Both basic Grey Knights troops choices (Terminator and Strike squads) come with Frag and Krak (show me another MEQ with Terminators with Frag and Krak included in their profile for free), and they both get Psyk-out grenades (for free). Gee, our Terminators are assaulting a unit in Cover, striking at I6 (which is also free) while their unit is striking at I1? :lol:what? And that does even add 1pt to the total cost of either unit relative to their C:SM equivalents? Explain to me again how Grey Knights are the "elite, low model count army"?

Also, how do you kill a grenade totting IC attached to a unit prior to the assault? Torrent of fire combined with luck? Don't manage to pull it off? Guess what, you can't even charge the unit to take away the effects of Rad and Psychotroke grenades as, unlike most other Assault phase grenades, they work when assaulting and being assaulted. Did you manage to kill of the IC in CC, congratulations - the Grenade has already had its effect on the first round of the assault. And, of course, that one model gave the benefit to the entire squad he was joined to - as did any other ICs engaged in the close combat.

 

And, no, grenades are not the reason Codex: Grey Knights is over-powered. It is just one example of many where C:GK is better than every other Codex, for the same price, and without any significant down-side.

[Chengar Qordath]

I doubt you'll get many players to agree to that ruling. The FAQ states they roll an extra die, not that it stacks, and other instances of the same rule (Furious Charge, Astropath's reserve bonus) aren't cumulative unless specified otherwise (Hammerhand, Autarch's reserve bonus). For example the lastest INAT FAQ states:

 

ELD.26D.01 – Q: Are multiple instances of Runes of Warding in the same Eldar army cumulative with each other (meaning opposing psykers take their psychic tests using 4D6)?

A: No, multiple instances of Runes of Warding in the same army still only add a single extra D6 to enemy psychic tests [clarification].

INAT isn't official, and the precedent for rules pieces of wargear that give a numeric bonus not stacking is murky at best (frex, multiple castings of the same power stack, as does the Eldar Autarch's bonus to reserve rolls).

 

I personally don't think Runes should stack for the aforementioned balance reasons, but the RAW is unclear. OR had a recent thread on this.

[dswanick]

I doubt you'll get many players to agree to that ruling. The FAQ states they roll an extra die, not that it stacks, and other instances of the same rule (Furious Charge, Astropath's reserve bonus) aren't cumulative unless specified otherwise (Hammerhand, Autarch's reserve bonus). For example the lastest INAT FAQ states:

 

ELD.26D.01 – Q: Are multiple instances of Runes of Warding in the same Eldar army cumulative with each other (meaning opposing psykers take their psychic tests using 4D6)?

A: No, multiple instances of Runes of Warding in the same army still only add a single extra D6 to enemy psychic tests [clarification].

INAT isn't official, and the precedent for rules pieces of wargear that give a numeric bonus not stacking is murky at best (frex, multiple castings of the same power stack, as does the Eldar Autarch's bonus to reserve rolls).

 

I personally don't think Runes should stack for the aforementioned balance reasons, but the RAW is unclear. OR had a recent thread on this.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the only reason for errata'ing the rule from 'roll 3d6' to 'roll an extra d6' - making a cumulative bonus. And, no, I routinely mock INAT and will argue vehemently that the errata'd rule should not be interpreted that way. However, there is a point to be made for it - as your link to the +OR+ thread shows.

[Gentlemanloser]

The only thing 'wrong' with Runes of Warding is the unlimited range

 

No, it's the Perils it inflicts. If you only failed, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

Now if our Aegis suit gave us a Ghost Helm like save versus Perils, or stopped us having to reroll sucessful Invulnerable saves, it wouldnt be so bad.

 

As it is, RoW are *far* too powerful.

[Chengar Qordath]

The only thing 'wrong' with Runes of Warding is the unlimited range

 

No, it's the Perils it inflicts. If you only failed, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

Now if our Aegis suit gave us a Ghost Helm like save versus Perils, or stopped us having to reroll sucessful Invulnerable saves, it wouldnt be so bad.

 

As it is, RoW are *far* too powerful.

Have to agree there; even before the terror of RoW potentially stacking comes in, you're looking at a 37.5% chance of Perils on every psychic test. Put another way, in a full-length game a SM Librarian will kill himself simply by trying to use a power every turn, without any other intervention by the enemy.

 

That ties into the other thing that really makes RoW so nasty; it makes using psychic powers so dangerous that you won't use one unless you really need it.

[Gentlemanloser]

One of the best chances of stopping a power, unlimited range, stacking and inflicitng a perils.

 

All that together makes the RoW broken.

[Captain Idaho]

One of the best chances of stopping a power, unlimited range, stacking and inflicitng a perils.

 

All that together makes the RoW broken.

 

Broken but not game changing, since not a single army, not even Grey Knights, relies on them to win the game. Possible exception could be Warp Blasts from Tyranids, but hey they have a mountain to climb anyway by all accounts! :tu:

[Gentlemanloser]

Utterly game changing.

 

I go from using a Psychic Power on *every* unit (if not more), to never touching my Powers when I face the Eldar.

 

It takes one fraction of our identity as not just another marine army, and removes it form us.

 

And there's little we can do, but pray to nuke the farseer out of thier stupidly durable transport.

[Captain Idaho]

:)

 

So you are saying you can't shoot their transports dead with Psycannons and Psyfileman Dreads, or wound them on a 3+ at high initiative with the potential benefit of grenades he can do nothing about?

 

I think you are over exaggerating about whether it changes how you play the game, in my opinion.

[Jacinda]

You might look at getting a rank of codices by power and then looking at where Codex: Grey Knight falls.

Of the GW codices, there are 14 total.

Black Templars

Blood Angels

Chaos Daemons

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

Dark Eldar

Grey Knights

Imperial Guard

Necrons

Orks

Sisters of Battle

Space Marines

Tau Empire

Tyranids

 

With enough people ranking them in order of percieved power we could get a list of averages. Next, assuming a typical bell curve, the top 3 codices would be "Over Powered" while the bottom 3 would be "Under Powered." The remaining 8 would be the normal powered armies. This is far from scientific as there is no good way to define the power of a codex, but it would give a idea of people's perception of whether any army is out of balance, either too high or too low.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Eldar are supposed to be the most pyschic of any race. I have no problems with RoW, it's nasty but it's what the Eldar are good at.

[Gentlemanloser]

So you are saying you can't shoot their transports dead with Psycannons and Psyfileman Dreads

 

Sure. if the Falcons don't get;

 

Skimmer moves fast

That stupid roll 2d6 choose the lowest for damage table rolls

 

In all the years of playing 40k, we can count the number of times we've destoryed a Falcon, between us, on the fingers of one hand. At a push, maybe two.

 

Falcons are stupid. ^_^

 

Edit;

 

Just for funzies ('teirs' not in any sort of order...)

 

Grey Knights

Blood Angels

Space Wolves

Imperial Guard

Chaos Daemons (If I'm not playing GK)

 

Dark Eldar

Necrons

Space Marines

Eldar

 

Black Templars

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

 

Sisters of Battle

 

Orks

Chaos Daemons (If I'm playing GK only)

Tau Empire

Tyranids

 

 

Bascially, the newest Imperials are top tier. Then the new Xeno, other storng Codexes. Then the older Codexes that show thier age. Then the crap. ;)

 

SoB I'm unsure of, never faced a new SoB army yet.

[*Furyou Miko]

Know how to make Runes of Warding really broken?

 

Use a hammer.

 

Or, better yet, a Vindicare to take the Farseer carrying them out. You're the Inquisition, you're made to kill enemy HQs.

[Gentlemanloser]

The vindicare is just itching to take the shot, the moment the Farseer steps out of the Falcon...

 

Stupid Falcons.

[*Furyou Miko]

Remind me again why Eldar can use all their toys while inside a vehicle that has no fire points? Because every other bugger has to be on the table to pull this crap.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah, everyone can use wargear while inside a transport with no fire points.

 

Like Teleport Homers from inside Land Raiders. ^_^

[Captain Idaho]

So you are saying you can't shoot their transports dead with Psycannons and Psyfileman Dreads

 

Sure. if the Falcons don't get;

 

Skimmer moves fast

That stupid roll 2d6 choose the lowest for damage table rolls

 

In all the years of playing 40k, we can count the number of times we've destoryed a Falcon, between us, on the fingers of one hand. At a push, maybe two.

 

Falcons are stupid. ^_^

 

Ha, yes, I actually agree 100% now and I'm not being sarcastic!

 

I think I actually destroyed two Falcons in my entire gaming career so I concede to your point! ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's sad that I've personally had more Pathfinders pop my Dreads, than I've popped Falcons in return. :(

 

They just love shooting through the Dreads eyeslit or something...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Truth of the matter is somewhere inbetween I believe. No one is going to take you seriously if you say 5pts to ignore shaken/stun results when all other armies pay three times the amount for count as shaken isn't a bargain that takes away entire Codex book's strengths at combatting GK vehicles, or if you say initiative 6 on strength 5 power weapons on units is not going to break every other assault unit in the game. Likewise, GK are expensive right? Well they cost the same as Space Marines actually, except for probably the difference of a single Attack Bike.

 

Erm, well you're missing some important caveats to those abilities;

- We only have a tiny number of vehicles in a pure Knight list (Coteaz is the only way to armour spam in a useful way), so arguably 'Fortitude' is meant to make up for our smaller armour pool getting focus-fired harder than other typical MeQ armies. Chimeras also don't get 'Fortitude', so the best gunboat isn't even covered by it. And that 5pts starts to add up if you try and Razorspam (very bad idea btw, Strike combat squads are incredibly bad for their points).

- Halberds are only going to be on Purifiers, Terminator blob and Paladin combat squads. None of those units is cheaper than 300pts in their typical configurations (even discounting the Rhino that the Purifiers typically have). One is always an Elites choice (Crowe is terrible), one only becomes Troops if you take an expensive uber Hero, and the remaining choice is more expensive than the other two by about 100-150pt margin, again assuming typical configuration.

Purifiers die like all uber-power armour units (same reason why Sternguard aren't OP), Paladins are very vulnerable to S8+ wounds, and Terminator blob is unwieldy and slow.

- Strength 5 in combat is a psychic test (which can be failed, blocked etc), and it comes at the cost of using the force weapon ability of the unit (unless you have a character attached, which won't be true for most squads).

- Unit cost: Haha no. We are 20pts base (with no upgrades), jumping to 24-26 base, then to 40, then to 55. Regular Marines go from 16, to 18, to 25, to 40 (comparing similar units). Our support units (transports, Dreadnoughts) are at best same price if not more expensive. What this translates to in game is that where a typical Marine army might have 30 power armour bodies and a handful of TDA, Knights might have 20 power armour bodies and a handful of TDA, with less armoured support, bikers, assault marines or landspeeders. Without Coteaz, pure Knights are always going to suffer in headcount.

 

So what I am saying is the GK Codex is woefully unbalanced against some armies which is undeniable (how are Necrons going to win through attrition when they can't even inflict glances on GK vehicles to shake them and stop them firing?), yet there are ways to beat them.

 

Necrons have some glaring weaknesses, but they're not without options. Cryptek lances still blow up most of our armour pretty reliably, and heavy gauss cannons can still cause pens. Also, due to our lower armour saturation (assuming no Coteaz), they can shoot real anti-tank (lances, heavy gauss) and use their suppression fire (telsa etc) on our infantry instead.

 

I have a better example .

6 NM sonic blasters , blast master . 185 .

 

6GK psycannon [force weapons on all dudes ,w.quake] in a razorback with blessed ammo 180 pts wut 0_o ????

 

That's a really bad comparison. Everyone knows GW went full tard when they wrote the last CSM book, most of the Cult units don't work as intended (only two actually, and Beserkers are slightly overcosted at that), and a lot of their units are just bland and unable to match the newer 'special rules everywhere' books of 5th edition.

Also, Strike combat squads are a joke in close-combat. I think even that terrible EC unit would still beat them (higher Initiative, more attacks, blastmaster is more likely to squish Knights than the psycannon is likely to down a EC dude). Popping the Razorback isn't that difficult, one of the few good things about the CSM book is that Obliterator spam still works a treat (and is arguably their only useful fire support unit).

 

Eldar having some of the best psychic defense in the game is fine. Eldar having a psychic defense with unlimited range that makes Ld 10 models fail more than 84% of their psychic tests and suffer from Perils over 76% of the time is going a bit too far.

 

Not really. Eldar spent centuries mastering the psychic arts, and their technology outclasses even Necron gear (because whilst Necrons hax reality, Eldar hax the warp when they make their gear). Also, if you kill the Farseer, the Runes go away, so it's not that overpowered. If it were an army ability, as opposed to a character wargear option, then it would be insane (because you can't turn it off).

 

Obviously different armies need different ways of handling psychics, but when there are five codices with no anti-psychic options at all (IG, Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle, Tau, and Orks) and four other codices with extremely limited anti-psychic options (Necrons, Chaos Demons, Dark Eldar, Black Templars) there's a problem. It certainly kills the "Deal with psykers by bringing psychic defense" option for a lot of players.

 

IG do need a psychic hood on their Primaris, it's weird they didn't include it (he's costed correctly for it).

Chaos probably just need a disruption thing like Runes, psychic hood would be a bit much

DE have Crucible, and given their background it's an appropriate item, they by default have no psykers to use something like a psychic hood

Orks win or lose regardless, psychic defense is for pansy umies

Necrons are like DE, although I think Gloom Prism is so bad it's unusable. Would've been better if they had kept Pariahs...sigh

Daemons are formed by Chaos, so they have no interest in calming warp activity. Their invulnerable saves are a pretty good defense against most psychic attacks anyway, the really rare 'take an Initiative test or die' abilities would be nerfed too hard if they didn't work on Daemons (plus when you think about it, psychic attacks should work even better against Daemons)

Black Templars hate witches, so no Librarians for them. I think a 5+ invul against wounds from psychic powers might work as a vow, provided they nerf 'Accept Any Challenge' into the ground (so it's not the default choice like now).

 

You're never going to get equal psychic defense across all armies, some are by design unprotected, some favour the warp, some are so numerous (perhaps the reasoning for Orks and IG, as they are the only horde armies without psychic defense) that psychic shenanigans don't affect them as badly.

 

Partially untrue. Both basic Grey Knights troops choices (Terminator and Strike squads) come with Frag and Krak (show me another MEQ with Terminators with Frag and Krak included in their profile for free), and they both get Psyk-out grenades (for free). Gee, our Terminators are assaulting a unit in Cover, striking at I6 (which is also free) while their unit is striking at I1? :lol:what? And that does even add 1pt to the total cost of either unit relative to their C:SM equivalents? Explain to me again how Grey Knights are the "elite, low model count army"?

 

Psyk-out only works on the charge, and only against psykers and daemons, so you can safely chalk up that advantage as 'only works against specific enemy X', like our re-rolls in combat against Daemons (which we get for free also)

Frag and krak reflect a design decision for us. Our TDA units fight on the ground, they don't use Landraiders (despite the pretty artwork, our army is so expensive we can't afford such luxures, and even regular Marines don't bother these days). To compensate, our Terminators can't be stormhammers ever, and they require psychic powers or characters attached in order to get beyond S4 (and no way to re-roll to hit or to wound either). Giving us the ability to charge into cover makes up for such disadvantages, compared to other armies Terminators. Bro Banner is an expensive upgrade and is less useful than either lightning claws or storm shield+thunderhammer would be (although it still helps in making up for our no re-rolls, S4 base, and for smiting multi-wound things).

Anyway, Terminators are so slow (remember, no Landraiders), that having frag grenades is a very minor thing. Krak grenades have never been reliable or worth mentioning in any edition, one S6 attack is functionally worse than just popping 'Hammerhand' and attacking normally, or just letting the squad hammers go to work (they'll kill it anyway).

 

CSM are cheaper and smack around Strikes squads perfectly fine for their points. Terminators are cheaper and bring combi-melta for slagging our TDA. Plague Marines don't enjoy our S5 power weapons, but your low attack output when fighting Troops with Troops means they can win combat sometimes (we still struggle to cause wounds, even with 'Hammerhand' active). Obviously Purifiers and our TDA units can kill CSM Troops, but thats like 1-2 units in your army total, wheras they have 2 at least if not more, plus their own Terminators and Obliterators.

 

Also, how do you kill a grenade totting IC attached to a unit prior to the assault? Torrent of fire combined with luck? Don't manage to pull it off? Guess what, you can't even charge the unit to take away the effects of Rad and Psychotroke grenades as, unlike most other Assault phase grenades, they work when assaulting and being assaulted. Did you manage to kill of the IC in CC, congratulations - the Grenade has already had its effect on the first round of the assault. And, of course, that one model gave the benefit to the entire squad he was joined to - as did any other ICs engaged in the close combat.

 

Who cares? If you kill the squad, you'll probably kill the hero as well. If you army can't kill Terminators reliably (even at 2.5k I'd be amazed if you see more than 10, 20 is just about the absolute maximum), it already has problems that Knights aren't a factor in. People get way too worked up over the grenades, I'd actually be bitching more about the Librarian (his powers are dirt cheap and hilariously OP against a lot of armies, and several are AOE or can be cast onto other squads). People forget you don't just pick an effect, psychotrokes are random as hell and sometimes do nothing.

 

And, no, grenades are not the reason Codex: Grey Knights is over-powered. It is just one example of many where C:GK is better than every other Codex, for the same price, and without any significant down-side.

 

Do you even play this game? Knights throw down between 1/2 and 2/3rds of a typical Marine force in both bodycount and armour saturation. We make up for it (somewhat, not entirely IMO) with our cool powers and special rules. All of the strategies that work against typical Marine armies (or the dreaded OP Wolves, who bring both armour and body saturation and unique advantages like Long Fangs) work just as well against Knights. All of our units die exactly the same to ranged attacks, 'Shrouding' only matters if you rely on low AP to kill us (which, given 5th edition meta-game of 4+ cover everywhere, is a dumb idea regardless). The story is different in combat obviously, but you can still swamp Knight units (Strikes in particular are very vulnerable to this, Purifiers can be ganked if you whittle them down first, same goes for our TDA units).

 

 

RE: killing Falcons

 

They're still only AV12, and they don't come with the 'lol no extra pen dice' rule that Wave Serpents have. If you dump enough PsyDread into them, they will break. Also, because Clown armies don't work anymore, you're unlikely to see multiple Falcons, or even that many Serpents. War Walkers or Fire Prisms are more likely HS choices for the two other slots.

Vindicare is probably a waste shooting at a Falcon, but he can still pop a Wave Serpent (his 3+4D6 isn't a bonus, but you have to ignore any Rends you roll as they don't count).

[Hellios]

So you are saying you can't shoot their transports dead with Psycannons and Psyfileman Dreads

 

Sure. if the Falcons don't get;

 

Skimmer moves fast

That stupid roll 2d6 choose the lowest for damage table rolls

 

In all the years of playing 40k, we can count the number of times we've destoryed a Falcon, between us, on the fingers of one hand. At a push, maybe two.

 

Falcons are stupid. :(

 

Ha, yes, I actually agree 100% now and I'm not being sarcastic!

 

I think I actually destroyed two Falcons in my entire gaming career so I concede to your point! ;)

 

So as someone who plays Eldar and plays against Eldar... Including the dark times of the flying circus... I can only think that you are suffering from one or more of the following.

 

1) You don't play against CWE enough.

2) The dice gods hate you.

3) You've figured that you don't need to destroy falcons to win.

4) The Eldar players you play against are so much better than you.

 

I mean seriously... I've destroyed more than two flacons in a single game... with Ork shooting B)... Eldar vehicles are only 'meh' anyway... Fireprisms are awesome but suffer from vindicator syndrome... Falcons are all over the place and Waveserpents are so expensive that I cry pansy pointy eared tears.

 

As for RoW... Yes they can change a game... but most armies do not rely on psychic powers to win against Eldar... and the effect can be removed... I will admit it really screws my fluffy 1ksons army but being a fluffy 1ksons army it was pretty much screwed from the start right :D

[adamv6]

I have only come back to the game in the last 6 months after a 10yr break.

 

IMHO, having played (in the last 3 months) against;

 

Space Wolves - 4 times

IG - 3 times

Eldar - 2 times

Necron - 2 times

Templars - 3 times

TAU - 1 time

CSM - 1 time

 

i would say that Gentlemanlosers groupings are fairly close.

 

Wolves are a proper pain in the backside. The rune priest has shutdown my psychic powers so often, and our aegis hardly bothers him. A well composed Long fang squad can take out a transport and half a squad of Paladins a turn proving the LF Sarg is still breathing, and a Logan Wing is a proper pain to remove. Please don't get me started on Arjac and his damned ST10,AP1 6" hammer throw and IC killer stats.

 

I made the mistake of not making my rifleman dread not venerable against IG, and "bring it down" removed him inside the first 2 mins of a game. The "Front rank fire, second rank fire" shenanigans had me keeling over like a vodka fuelled wench as well. And then you have Leman Russ tanks with Pask as the squad leader giving them BS4 and crackshot. And whats with the heavy stubber? Basically a heavy bolter (although S4) for the same cost as a stormbolter? I played a guy with a punisher with pask. 3s to hit, 3s to wound, heavy 20. HEAVY 20!!!! 230points for AV14, and 20 24" shots at S5. (and Pask makes that S6 against a vehicle).

 

The biggest amount of banter (bordering on abuse sometimes) I have received as a GK player is about some of our cheese units (henchman spam seems to get alot of bad press, esp multiple psyker squads), Draigo and Coteaz.

 

I did get a torrent of crap from an IG guy I played when he was hammering my ven dread, only to realise that basically a 1 or 2 did nothing, and a 5 & 6 I would make him re-roll. He got a 6, re-rolled, got a 2. Then he got another 6, re-rolled and got a 4, only for me to just summon the immobilised vendread with my librarian the next turn ;)

[Captain Idaho]

So as someone who plays Eldar and plays against Eldar... Including the dark times of the flying circus... I can only think that you are suffering from one or more of the following.

 

1) You don't play against CWE enough.

2) The dice gods hate you.

3) You've figured that you don't need to destroy falcons to win.

4) The Eldar players you play against are so much better than you.

 

2, followed but 1 respectively. ^_^ it's the 2 dice thing. I can't roll 2 decent scores in a row!

 

@ Reclusiarch Darius: granted Grey Knight lists often end up smaller than other Marine Codex books, the difference is neglible unless the GK player goes all out on Storm Ravens and other points heavy units.

 

And the direct points for points comparison isn't makes them difficult to beat, it's the fact they have really powerful counters to almost everything other armies can throw at them in a competetive, all comers environment (i.e. No tailoring). Tyranids brave their firepower then get chopped into pieces, anti-psychic capabilities are compensated for by super grenades, long range firepower deficiency is over came by pin-point teleporting across the board and S8 twin linked autocannons, low numbers of units is countered by making Dreadnoughts hanging at the back with said S8 autocannons scoring etc etc.

 

The GK have tools to over come natural weaknessses, but pay next to no points for them.

 

And as for Necrons; spamming Crypteks isn't conducive to competetive lists unless you build very specific lists.

[Gentlemanloser]

And as for Necrons; spamming Crypteks isn't conducive to competetive lists unless you build very specific lists.

 

Isn't spamming Lance Crypteks and CCB Lords with Warscythes the only competitive build for Necrons?

[*Furyou Miko]

Not in the slightest.

 

I could go into an in-depth analysis of the many varied Necron builds of smiting, but instead, I'll just refer you to a place it's already been done;

 

http://necrontyronline.freeforums.org/tact...necrons-f3.html

[RedemptionNL]

Just for funzies ('teirs' not in any sort of order...)

 

Grey Knights

Blood Angels

Space Wolves

Imperial Guard

Chaos Daemons (If I'm not playing GK)

 

Dark Eldar

Necrons

Space Marines

Eldar

 

Black Templars

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

 

Sisters of Battle

 

Orks

Chaos Daemons (If I'm playing GK only)

Tau Empire

Tyranids

 

Bascially, the newest Imperials are top tier. Then the new Xeno, other storng Codexes. Then the older Codexes that show thier age. Then the crap. :D

 

SoB I'm unsure of, never faced a new SoB army yet.

 

I'd definitely place Orks higher than that; I think they're more competative than Codex: Space Marines at least, with various builds that work well and routinely place high in tournaments. I also wouldn't consider Daemons a top tier army, with only a few builds that have a decent chance of working (e.g. Fatecrusher), and even then, can't really compete in the top tiers.

 

Black Templars and Dark Angels are actually pretty decent since their updated errata, even if Black Templars turned into a somewhat shooty army instead of their original melee marines.

 

So my list would be:

Tier 1 - Most competitive, generally have a slight edge on tier 2: BA, IG, SW, GK

Tier 2 - Still very competitive: Orks, DE, 'Crons

Tier 3 - Generally older codexes showing their age, but still have some tricks up their sleeve: SM, DA, BT, Eldar

Tier 4 - Old codexes and/or codexes with bad design choices: Tau, 'Nids, CSM, Daemons, SOB