So how OP are we anyway?

[number6]

One of my friends stopped playing his GK and went to Ultramarines because one of our other friends (he plays Tyranids) basically couldn't play against them.

I play Tyranids, too -- have been ever since the release of the latest codex -- and it is demoralizing to see that GW is willing to produce not just one, but TWO armies that absolutely destroy them. (Namely, DE and GKs.) I love, Love, LOVE the 'nids. But ... yeah. It's rough days now, and it will be for the forseeable future. :)

 

You can't blame GK players for this. This is entirely GW's fault. People should be allowed to play with whatever rules GW gives them to play with. It's not their fault GW is sometimes ASS at balancing the game. (It would help if they actually cared about game balance, but that is another topic altogether.)

 

There are ways to make everybody happy. Especially in the context of friendly games.

 

Just give the 'nids more points to play with. Bonus points. Say, 25% - 50% more points when facing GKs. If the GKs are fielding a 1500 pt army, give the 'nids 2000 pts to play with. At least then the game will be more of less fair and equally challenging for both sides. Besides, it's a bit more epic, too. 'nids should always outnumber their enemies, right? ;)

 

Shy of intentionally changing or gimping the GKs when facing 'nids -- or intentionally giving new uber rules to the 'nids -- there isn't any other way to fix the situation. (And I would argue, the 'nids should get a point advantage against any and all Imperial and DE armies.)

 

Try it out. I think you'll find it works out just fine. Everybody can play with everything and anything they want, and games can be fairly contested again.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can't blame GK players for this. This is entirely GW's fault. People should be allowed to play with whatever rules GW gives them to play with. It's not their fault GW is sometimes ASS at balancing the game.

 

<3

[dswanick]

You can't blame GK players for this. This is entirely GW's fault. People should be allowed to play with whatever rules GW gives them to play with. It's not their fault GW is sometimes ASS at balancing the game. (It would help if they actually cared about game balance, but that is another topic altogether.)

Couldn't agree more. It's a particular pet-peeve of mine because I've always kept a "30K Great Crusade-era Legion" fan-dex project going since I started playing in 2nd Ed. Every edition I have to digest the new rules, develope/playtest/refine a codex balanced to the current generation of GW publications, and field all the "this is so OP because I don't understand the benefits/drawbacks". Then GW releases trash like this without even an off-hand apology and I think to myself - "Why do I even bother".

[Chengar Qordath]

You can't blame GK players for this. This is entirely GW's fault. People should be allowed to play with whatever rules GW gives them to play with. It's not their fault GW is sometimes ASS at balancing the game. (It would help if they actually cared about game balance, but that is another topic altogether.)

Couldn't agree more. It's a particular pet-peeve of mine because I've always kept a "30K Great Crusade-era Legion" fan-dex project going since I started playing in 2nd Ed. Every edition I have to digest the new rules, develope/playtest/refine a codex balanced to the current generation of GW publications, and field all the "this is so OP because I don't understand the benefits/drawbacks". Then GW releases trash like this without even an off-hand apology and I think to myself - "Why do I even bother".

Have to agree there; the general lack of effort GW puts into making a balanced game can be annoying as hell sometimes. My homebrewed stuff put me through all kinds of trouble to make sure things were balanced and there were no dead choices, things GW never bothers with.

[Murcielago]

So we all agree here that GW cannot balance their game for :D ???

 

Another good example: daemons of chaos. Sit there and laugh

[Leksington]

Am I seeing this correctly?

At Adepticon, among the 40k Championship finalists, 7 of the 16 armies are GK? No other codex has more than 2 in the finals?

 

0 Vanilla Marines

0 Chaos Marines

0 Blood Angels

0 Dark Eldar

0 Tyranids (it is worth noting that of the ~250 people that registered, 0 fielded Tyranids)

0 Tau Empire

0 Sisters

0 Black Templar

 

Edit: A guy in the top 16 who played Orks had to leave. His replacement will be a GK player, meaning 8 out of the 16 players in the finals will be using GK.

[greatcrusade08]

ive read through a few pages of this thread and id like to add my 0.02c

the argument that GK arent overpowered, but other codexes are underpowered is to be blunt, laughable.

 

its understandable given people who play them have a natural bias, but viewed from the gaming community as a whole GK are undeniably more powerful point for point than the majority of the other dexes, space wolves come a close second.

Its also the reason why these two armies form the majority of uber competative tournament armies.

 

if we ignore these two codexes, then there is incredible balance amongst the rest IMO, both tyranids and daemons are more than capable of challenging everything else on the list.

 

sure we can argue that imperial guard have the leaf blower and space marines have the vulkan melta spam, but every codex has its 'meta list'.

i would argue that both the space wolf and grey knights codexes are more than capable of running lists that balance well with everything else.. but people are too concerned with winning.

IMO competative tournaments has destroyed our hobby, im kinda glad GW has stopped backing official events.

 

i also get a little... i suppose angry is the wrong word, dispondant/annoyed maybe when i see grey wolves players running dual psykers with livving lightening, backed up by MSU grey hunters and 3x4ML long fangs.

sure its competative, but wheres the fun with a list like that? we have a guy at our club who runs that list and tbh he hasnt been beaten in ages, not becuase non-one else cant beat him, just that no-one else would take a tournament list to a friendly games club (or cant afford to jump to the next big thing every time)

 

that gripe being said i also know a good bunch of guys at another local club whos main aim is to play really savagely competative games, but for the most part 40k players are usually the former than the latter.

 

I also had the pleasure of meeting nurglez at a torunament i ran, and his attitude to the draigo/paladin issue was refreshing, yes he ran the army, but he tried to avoid the super cheesey elements like libby with sanctuary and multiple psyflemen and the different types of cheese grenades they have.

he won the event, even beating a paladin player who ran those cheesier elements, i was quite impressed tbh.

ive said for some time now that paladins would be better balanced when all that other nonsense was ignored, i do understand not wanting to make weaker lists, but if your playing friendly games, perhaps your army list should be 'friendly'?

 

this of course is just my opinion

[Gentlemanloser]

WooT!

 

Go Go GK!

 

I bet we're beaten by SW in the Finals though. :P

[Vesper]

Am I seeing this correctly?

At Adepticon, among the 40k Championship finalists, 7 of the 16 armies are GK? No other codex has more than 2 in the finals?

 

0 Vanilla Marines

0 Chaos Marines

0 Blood Angels

0 Dark Eldar

0 Tyranids (it is worth noting that of the ~250 people that registered, 0 fielded Tyranids)

0 Tau Empire

0 Sisters

0 Black Templar

 

Edit: A guy in the top 16 who played Orks had to leave. His replacement will be a GK player, meaning 8 out of the 16 players in the finals will be using GK.

 

 

Thank you GW for making us play to your wonderful game Warhammer 40GK. Ruined the whole edition big time.

[Captain Idaho]

Thank you GW for making us play to your wonderful game Warhammer 40GK. Ruined the whole edition big time.

 

Just as well there's only a little bit of time left in the edition ;)

[Vesper]

Rumors.

And I don't even care anymore. I've waited for a new Chaos codex since Gav ruined Chaos before leaving. That's the only thing that could get me back in the hobby. The very last.

[the jeske]

0 Tyranids (it is worth noting that of the ~250 people that registered, 0 fielded Tyranids)

more sob players then nid players ... bueno .

[*Furyou Miko]

Actually, now I think about it, that is pretty awesome... although it would be more awesome if there was more of us than them, but there were some of them. >>

[The Holy Heretic]

Am I seeing this correctly?

At Adepticon, among the 40k Championship finalists, 7 of the 16 armies are GK? No other codex has more than 2 in the finals?

 

0 Vanilla Marines

0 Chaos Marines

0 Blood Angels

0 Dark Eldar

0 Tyranids (it is worth noting that of the ~250 people that registered, 0 fielded Tyranids)

0 Tau Empire

0 Sisters

0 Black Templar

 

Edit: A guy in the top 16 who played Orks had to leave. His replacement will be a GK player, meaning 8 out of the 16 players in the finals will be using GK.

 

 

Thank you GW for making us play to your wonderful game Warhammer 40GK. Ruined the whole edition big time.

 

Well, Ward is infamous for making the game breaking armies :lol:

 

But then again, players are 'idiots' for playing the game competitively while being fully aware of its unbalanced nature :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I like the pattern that's revealing itself it here and I'd like to add to it; Barcelona aren't a great football team; every other team in Europe just plain sucks. The Yankees have only won so many World Series because all the other MLB teams suck. The Canadiens have only won so many Stanley Cups because all other hockey teams are awful.

 

Likewise, Grey Knights aren't overpowered at all; all other Codexes just aren't good enough.

 

Why, that refreshing beverage you are drinking looks delicious.

*sips*

 

Kool-aid, you call it?

YUMMY

 

:)

 

Codex Blood Angels gets hurt by High Initiative power weapons, and massed anti-vehicle shooting, but a good mech list can still hold its own decently well.

 

Codex space Marines, was already out paced by Wolves and BA in most areas, but its top lists can still do pretty well against good GK lists.

 

Tyranids, ...are pretty bad in general, but they meta better against GKs than they do against say space wolves.

 

Dark Eldar, are one of the only armies that metas well against most other lists but, gets killed by Grey Knights, but then again they do the same thing to Nids, and Chaos Daemons (worse in many ways, because as a Daemon player, venom spam is as close to an auto-loss as exists in 40k).

 

BA do fine against Wolves and IG, yet get totally hammered against GK if they aren't only and always meched up.

What happened to Jumpers, Hybrid and DoA?

Oh, they got GK'd

:lol:

 

Oh, but it is not the Codex. No, no-sirree-Bob.

 

Not everyone wants to play at tournaments and win big, some people play for fun and choose units they like over cost effective choices.

 

Is it fair that jimmy and billy, friends who start playing 40k and pick armies they like the look off, who just happen to choose codex's of different power? (lets say grey knights and tau).

 

I play Draigowing. Only grey knight's I own, and I fell in love with them before the internet started going on about how powerful they were. I was actually shocked to win my first few games, as when I had started loganwing I lost the first 4-5 before I figured out how to play them (yes I love low model count armies).

 

I don't play draigowing for friendly games much anymore, as it was so demoralizing to look across the battlefield at my friend's face as they shoot everything and I take maybe 3-8 wounds and lose no models. I've lost about 10% of the game's I've played with them.

 

As everyone else has said above, it's the fact we can beat armies at their own game. I6 force weapons + sanctuary mess up close combat armies, storm bolters + psycannon's for mid range vs everything, and shrouding + stunlock immunity (mostly) to use against shooty armies.

 

And don't even get me started on our libby's...

 

I'm glad that at least some GK players see they are dining from the posh table. *sighs relief*

 

Look, GK got ripped with the 3rd ed. Dex for a.g.e.s. and that wasn't right.

And playing with an UP Dex probably made many of you stronger players, because you had to do more with less. Like C:DA players have endured.

But if you think this current Dex is not Marines++, compared to the Wolves version which is Marines+, well, I'm sorry, but the vehicle you are driving is doing a fair bit of the winning for you.

 

Schumacher didn't win all those Championships in a Beetle, you know. And he might even be the best ever F1 driver.

 

Don't worry. Wolves players had a hard time admitting that Grey Hunters and Long Fangs were too good to.

 

But some of you have argued for pages that the Codex is fine.

I am my success. Or something like that.

 

Whenever I suggest dudes swap their army, thought to be OP, for a dozen or so games with their friends/rivals/etc. they always seem to murmur something about having to wash their hair, or something else that is very urgent.

 

*shrugs*

 

Those who don't want to see because it might lessen their accomplishments, will not see.

 

I take the best stuff when I play, and I am a good player. But I don't pretend my solid K:D ratio in Space Marine, even with lag, is all me. Some things are stronger than others.

Within a Codex, this is true. Also, between Codices, this is true.

[Captain Idaho]

Whenever I suggest dudes swap their army, thought to be OP, for a dozen or so games with their friends/rivals/etc. they always seem to murmur something about having to wash their hair, or something else that is very urgent.

 

I actually reccommend this to all gaming groups. My old group used to do this and it really helped us all understand our own armies and the game much better.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The other thought is just play with models in your collection that don't get a lot of play time. Goof around. My list right now has two Inquisitor HQs neither in terminator armor. Why? Because they're neat, and I have two decked out Chimeras for them. I plan retinues that are reflecting an oddball collection of minions, not really min-maxed at all. It's a collection of models I have (and my own history is different than someone just starting GK, I admit) but it's also not something anyone can argue is twinked or chosen because the models are all that.

 

We got lucky... it's very easy to abuse the Codex we have. So perhaps we have to do our part to ensure the other guys get to have fun too. After all, "with great power comes great responsibility" and all that :yes:

[Gentlemanloser]

It's a hard thing to balance.

 

Especially if you don't know the lists your gonna face prior to playing your opponent.

 

Do you drop all your Palies/DCA to give your opponent more fun, only to find they're running MSU and wipe the floor with you? Do you intentionally 'gimp' your list, and have no chance of beating your opponent? Gifting wins as much fun as earning them?

 

Do you just drop the Vindicare, to last nights cries of "ZOMG that guys sucks!" but leave the rest of your list unchanged, to find no one brings any AV14 now, and you still run roughshod over them with what you bought with the free'd up points?

 

How *do* you decide what's fair and balanced to run, when people can't use a set fixed amount of points to achive this?

 

And really, isn't that GW's job, and not the players?

[Morollan]

And really, isn't that GW's job, and not the players?

 

Yes. Shame they suck at it.

[Corby]

WooT!

 

Go Go GK!

 

I bet we're beaten by SW in the Finals though. :lol:

 

Grey knights have won the adepticon finals.

[Gentlemanloser]

Uh oh.

 

Metric :lol: tonnes of GK are OP incoming!

 

In 3, 2, 1...

[number6]

Before the new GK codex, all DH players could do was complain about their plight, how awful their codex was, and how long we had suffered without any attention from GW.

 

With the new GK codex, all former DH players either have to suffer complaints that they are either ruining the game for playing their favorite army in the way the want, using the rules GW created for them, or they are part of the new crew of GK haters.

 

There is just no winning, is there?

 

This is a forum devoted to supporting the GK codex and its players. If y'all wanna spend your time hating on it instead, fine. But this isn't really the forum for it.

[Gentlemanloser]

There is just no winning, is there?

 

Nope. :lol:

 

It's really not *our* faults for the tools GW have given us.

 

If you really dislike playing against the GK that much, talk to your opponent. I'm sure they would rather drop the Psycho's, or Psyflemen, Or Draigo (or whatever it is that's not brining you fun) rather than not playing at all...

 

But then when you disarm your opponent of most of thier 'dex, be careful you don't force them into the same position...

[nurglez]

This is exactly why I don't bring my Draigowing out vs my friend's (unless one of them agrees beforehand). My problem is, I only collected Draigowing, as I love the idea of them (the elite of the elite etc), and don't really want to collect "normal" grey knights (have 1750 points of Draigowing painted up, plus several dread's and a libby half painted). I have started collecting Dark Eldar, which seem a much more balanced codex, though I need to glue those models together (one day...).

 

The thing is, I think the grey knight codex is one of the best internally balanced codex's. The amount of discussions between strikes and terminators, mostly decent elites (some of the assassin's aren't great) and only really the heavy selection is a bit unbalanced (psyrifle dreads...). Sure we can hope and prey that GW balance all their codex's power level, but we know that wont ever happen.

 

I am slightly annoyed that the army I set out to collect before even playing them (and before all the internet hype of Draigowing) is over powered vs my friends, luckily I only spent about £125 for 1750 points... :lol:

[The Holy Heretic]

Au contraire.

 

The situation is entirely made of pure win.

 

What We've got is freedom. Freedom to not do a spam army, we can take All sorts of units in our armies and still be competitive - actually more so, since it takes more effort to win this way. This also gives opponents a better experience, since battles become more varied, unpredictable and fun.

 

Sure you lose out on a lot of fun, if you take the 'auto-win' lists, but then you're only cheating yourself. Winning after all, is only the 2 minutes, when you tally up the points, the 2 hours before that is the actual fun :P