So how OP are we anyway?

[greatcrusade08]

I Don’t think that it was wrong of GW to give GK such a Codex, but I hope they continue the trend with the codex to come.

 

Had Gw a greater degree of updates then your right, bu sadly there are dexes that are years out of date..

but your rigth your talking about internal balance, you dont have mephy and long fang must have choices.. however that being said, at a more competative level you do.

purifiers, crowe, draigo and paladins are features of most competative armies.

it would be nice to see someone succeed with a more unique list

[The Holy Heretic]

Its really easy to see the lack of internal balance in the GK 'dex. Just check the army list section, there are 4 lists:

 

Draigowing

Crowe Taxed

3 Warrior Acolytes to a Psyback ( not as popular on B&C, since most residents have a 'thing' for mareenz )

and

Other lists that get ragged on for not being 'competitive'.

 

Of the first 3, most will feature 3 'Psyfleman' dreadnoughts.

 

Other notes of interest are the rate of Brother Captains to Grand Masters, the near non-existance of interceptors and incinerators, and the total ignoration of the Psilencer, and of course scarcity of assassins other than Vindicares :)

[*Furyou Miko]

The problem with the GK's "internal balance" isn't that they have no weaknesses - however true it may be.

 

The problem is that they don't have the drawbacks a "no weakness" list should have. The only way to balance "no weaknesses" is to also have "no strengths".

 

A Space Marine Tactical Squad has "no weaknesses" - it's passable in CC, fairly good at shooting, and somewhat difficult to shift from cover while remaining relatively mobile with a special weapon.

 

A Space Marine Tactical Squad also has no real "strengths" - It's not going to win against a dedicated assault unit, and it's going to get shot to pieces by a dedicated shooting squad.

 

Grey Knights (as a whole army, disregarding Inquisition forces for the moment) on the other hand have "no weaknesses" - They're effective in CC, fairly good at shooting, and somewhat difficult to shift from cover while retaining very high levels of mobility.

 

Grey Knights, however, have many "strengths" - free power weapons everywhere, more powerful guns than anyone else (because of psybolts), dedicated CC squads that don't sacrifice their ranged ability, supreme mobility (because of assault 2)... they're still going to get creamed by a huskblade/djinnblade/soultrap archon with a clone field leading a unit of wyches, but if they survive the initial smackdown, they'll make a comeback and return the favour (in part because of ATSKNF but also because of force weapons and wounding on 2+).

 

I left the Inquisition units out earlier, because they don't fit into the imbalance of the rest of the army.

 

Henchman Squads have "weaknesses" - over-specialisation, poor statlines on everything except DCA, and general fragility.

 

Henchman squads also have many "strengths" - a source of cheap IFVs, DCAs, and the sheer number of choices they present. Henchman squads in and of themselves are well balanced with weaknesses against strengths, only becoming a problem when you use Coteaz to break the system.

[the jeske]

I like the 4 DCA in razor version better . it is still viable to do hth with it [specialy as most stuff wont reach you at full strenght with all the shoting a cortez army has] , it is a good scoring camper and in the swarm of tanks you use they are always a good support unit in case you want to charge something big .

 

as interceptors goes people do use them in casual lists , in a interceptor +NDK combo[only way to make them viable too].

at 1k or lower games 5 intereceptors do ok . I had a good success rate in some 1k pts tournaments with them .

 

But there are no “must have”, “never use”, “always bring tis weapon”, “never use that upgrade”. Anyone can throw together a list of GK and it will still be playable, you can build complete fluff armies ore only use the models you think are/look cool, and you will still be able to give your friend /opponent a good fight.

that is not true . if your build a razor spam lists there are must haves and you know what you will be spaming , same with cortez builds or with a draigo list . Sure you technicly could put anything you want in to a list , but an optimized/good list will have must haves.

 

actualy I also disagree with GC . I dont think that it took great skill to build a good army with codex sm or a working army with codex nids . list building is and always was easy . the difference is pure power and not working with meta[understood as the 5th ed rule set].

 

Draigo wing is broken in KP missions . it has nothing to do with how well they kill/dont get killed . Puri spams break the fundamental rule of any gunline list ever created . they cant be stun locked and dont have to sacrifice anything to do counter attacks or anti horde . the problem is not the GK or the other armies , the problem is the 5th ed rule set that buffs GK builds impossible . Can one build an army that is good against GK ? of course , but A that is tailoring[and tailoring against an all comers doesnt make much sense] B the GK would still have a good fighting chance . you tailor against GK . he picks draigo . you end up playing kill points. his 6 vs your 13. win very very very hard to achive.

[Stormshadow]

I don’t play in as many tournaments as I used to. Between work, building a house, raising a family and planning a wedding, I have little time left. But I would still like to think I perform at a competitive level. ;)

 

I love Draigo-wing, and often play it, but rather than thinking of it as overpowered, I regard it as fun but “weak”. And never play that army at tournaments. I have never used a Crowe list as described here with the Razor spam and have an inherent distaste for it… Instead I have gotten my gaming group to hate my twin Stormraven lists :). But I must say that GK are too expensive for me too be confident with any list I build. I think that I will have to start playing games of 2750pts instead of 1750pts ;)

[breng77]

This is GW's fault. They have always over-focused on Imperials. Beyond that, they have always over-focused on Space Marines. They need to produce more codexes like DE and Necrons. The fact that in all 4 years of 5th edition, they gave us just two quality non-Imperial codexes is censored.gif .

 

I actually disagree with this somewhat. I think the DE dex was a terrible creation, in most part due to the plethora of poisoned weapons (as due to that it absolutely hoses nids(far worse than GKs), Daemons(far worse than GKs), and really any other foot build.

 

What GW really needs to stop doing is creating dexes/abilities, that absolutely kill entire books. Which stems from how they play I believe. Take Jaws of the World Wolf for instance, absolutely kills Tyranid MC builds, as does poisoned shooting. This IMO is what really kills lots of armies, making units in books where you pay a premium for things like T6, or multiple wounds (think Nid Warriors), only to have them completely ignored by some books. I feel the same way about the anti-Daemon stuff in the GK book (yes it is fluffy), certain armies should not be built to destroy others for no additional cost.

 

The problem isn't whether GK can compete with other top tier armies, it's how much competetion the lower tiered armies can raise against the GK.

 

I would agree with this if the separation was not caused by a lack of updates. The problem is unless GW just wants the game to stay exactly the same, their model of slow releases over time will always create this disparity eventually. Saying that GKs should be balanced to say Tau is a losing argument unless all other books are balanced going backward. Unless the statement is that GKs beat bad armies worse than Guard beats bad armies (or that all top tier armies are overpowered), it is simply not a good idea to balance books against other books that are 5-7 years old. The issue is that there are too many armies in the game/GW does not produce new books fast enough. I have previously thought (which would be unpopular here I'm sure) that all the Loyalist Marine Chapters should be running out of one book(or one book + White dwarf/pdf rules), this streamlines the number of books down to 10 or 11, which if updated at a rate of 2-3 per year means every book gets a full update during the current edition.

[*Furyou Miko]

One marine codex with White Dwarf "mod lists" for Marines?!

 

Heresy!

 

(Although I kind of like that idea too... take the focus away from the snowflakes...)

[Stormshadow]

if your build a razor spam lists there are must haves and you know what you will be spaming

 

This is true, but in a sense you are saying that you have to have a potato to make French fries. And I am saying that you do not have to make French fries.

[Stormshadow]

Its really easy to see the lack of internal balance in the GK 'dex. Just check the army list section, there are 4 lists:

 

Draigowing

Crowe Taxed

3 Warrior Acolytes to a Psyback ( not as popular on B&C, since most residents have a 'thing' for mareenz )

and

Other lists that get ragged on for not being 'competitive'.

 

Of the first 3, most will feature 3 'Psyfleman' dreadnoughts.

 

Other notes of interest are the rate of Brother Captains to Grand Masters, the near non-existance of interceptors and incinerators, and the total ignoration of the Psilencer, and of course scarcity of assassins other than Vindicares :cry:

 

I have absolutely no problem with spanking Draigowing ore Crowe Taxed armies to tears. But then again, I am kicking there asses with an overpowered codex ;).

[Captain Idaho]

I would agree with this if the separation was not caused by a lack of updates. The problem is unless GW just wants the game to stay exactly the same, their model of slow releases over time will always create this disparity eventually. Saying that GKs should be balanced to say Tau is a losing argument unless all other books are balanced going backward. Unless the statement is that GKs beat bad armies worse than Guard beats bad armies (or that all top tier armies are overpowered), it is simply not a good idea to balance books against other books that are 5-7 years old. The issue is that there are too many armies in the game/GW does not produce new books fast enough. I have previously thought (which would be unpopular here I'm sure) that all the Loyalist Marine Chapters should be running out of one book(or one book + White dwarf/pdf rules), this streamlines the number of books down to 10 or 11, which if updated at a rate of 2-3 per year means every book gets a full update during the current edition.

 

Oh for sure, I totally agree that the lack of updating is hurting 40K - it just takes too long!

 

But that's a connected problem to what I said, so it's more or less the same thing! :lol:

[The Holy Heretic]

Its really easy to see the lack of internal balance in the GK 'dex. Just check the army list section, there are 4 lists:

 

Draigowing

Crowe Taxed

3 Warrior Acolytes to a Psyback ( not as popular on B&C, since most residents have a 'thing' for mareenz )

and

Other lists that get ragged on for not being 'competitive'.

 

Of the first 3, most will feature 3 'Psyfleman' dreadnoughts.

 

Other notes of interest are the rate of Brother Captains to Grand Masters, the near non-existance of interceptors and incinerators, and the total ignoration of the Psilencer, and of course scarcity of assassins other than Vindicares

 

I have absolutely no problem with spanking Draigowing ore Crowe Taxed armies to tears. But then again, I am kicking there asses with an overpowered codex .

 

Good for you. My point though was more that the Codex isn't as "balanced", as people claim :lol:

[ValourousHeart]

Its really easy to see the lack of internal balance in the GK 'dex. Just check the army list section, there are 4 lists:

 

Draigowing

Crowe Taxed

3 Warrior Acolytes to a Psyback ( not as popular on B&C, since most residents have a 'thing' for mareenz )

and

Other lists that get ragged on for not being 'competitive'.

 

Of the first 3, most will feature 3 'Psyfleman' dreadnoughts.

 

Other notes of interest are the rate of Brother Captains to Grand Masters, the near non-existance of interceptors and incinerators, and the total ignoration of the Psilencer, and of course scarcity of assassins other than Vindicares :P

 

I have absolutely no problem with spanking Draigowing ore Crowe Taxed armies to tears. But then again, I am kicking there asses with an overpowered codex ;).

 

Good for you. My point though was more that the Codex isn't as "balanced", as people claim ^_^

 

I would have thought the prevalence of those lists was more an indication that people on this forum are not very creative... and the dearth of originality in the hobby as a whole.

I mean really, you talk about Crowe Tax and Warrior Acolyte lists like they are unique to GK.... when all I see is the GK version of Razor Spam.

 

Heck they even managed to create a Razor Venom Spam list with the DE codex.

Now that is truly a lack of originality.

[Hellios]

I would have thought the prevalence of those lists was more an indication that people on this forum are not very creative... and the dearth of originality in the hobby as a whole.

I mean really, you talk about Crowe Tax and Warrior Acolyte lists like they are unique to GK.... when all I see is the GK version of Razor Spam.

 

Heck they even managed to create a Razor Venom Spam list with the DE codex.

Now that is truly a lack of originality.

 

I would argue that DE have been doing Raider spam before Razorspam came onto the scene and that now you have the option for Venom spam or Raider/Venom hybrid lists... For a long time mounted Dark Eldar was one of the only real option and I don't think I've ever seen a full Dark footdar list, t isn't what they do. Even portal armies normally have some transports to get the portal into place.

 

Are you complaining about MSU? In which case it comes down to what works well... Venoms are good at killing infantry/monsters and can carry small units who are good at popping tanks... Hell those units are not even all MSU, they are just dedicated to a task. If on a scale of 0-100 50 was perfectly balanced then I think the Dark Eldar wopuld be the closest to 50... about 48 or so.

 

Out of the newer dexes I feel the nids are worse and they have some significant issues... DE and GK being two of them... Without indepth rule modifications I think slightly cheaper big nasties and EW on synapse creatures would make a huge difference to nids.

 

The strongest codices comes as a toss up between IG and GKs for me... I think GKs are easier to use while some guard lists played well with a bit of luck are horrible to face. I would then place the SWs after them, followed by the BAs.

 

I've not faced the new Crons so I won't talk about them.

[Stormshadow]

I would have thought the prevalence of those lists was more an indication that people on this forum are not very creative... and the dearth of originality in the hobby as a whole.

 

I absolutely agree with this.

 

The fact that these lists are being posted in abundance is because they are posted in abundance. Not because they are the best. These lists become the norm and every time someone posts a different Ide the critique is, “You forgot to pot Draigo and paladins in your list” or “you forgot to spam this purifier list with Razorbacks!”. But these are just some posts on a forum, my Interceptor squad with Incinerators have never let me down. What I mean to say is that I do not think that people refrain from posting alternative lists because they aren’t played, but because the feedback on them… leaves something to be desired.

[breng77]

The issue with internet feedback is it is generally predicated on trying to be as competitive as possible. Which gives 2 distinct issues.

 

1.) There are certain choices that are "optimal" for certain types of lists. Draigo in a Paladin Deathstar for example. Psyfleman dreads in nearly every GK list...

2.) These "optimal choices" don't take things like style of play, local meta game, level of competition into account.

 

Really what a lot of these lists come down to for me is they present you with a core of good units/ideas, that you can then put your own personal tweaks and changes into.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I buck the trends, but I always have.

 

My Grey Knight army at 2k consists of 3 10 man GKT squads, a Grand Master and a Vindicare.

 

I don't like paladins, hate dreadknights and not fond of psyrifle dreads.

 

I build a fluffy army consisting of a Grey Knight hit squad that goes in, eliminates the target and goes home.

[breng77]

And lists like that will work (just like old school deathwing but better.), but are hardly over powering.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I played my first proper game against GK's on Tuesday (mostly due to having barely played between April last year and a few weeks ago). His army consisted of a dreadnought with two twin linked autocannons and psybolt ammo, a pair of librarians with might, hammerhand, sanctuary, and termie armour, two identical termie squads with halberds, a psycannon, and a hammer, a regular land raider, and a LRC. We rolled kill points *repeated facepalming*. Turn 1 I broke the regular LR, shot most of the stuff inside to bits, and waited. He assaulted the sternguard responsible, and with a bit of luck (namely, the justicar exploding his own head) I wiped them out over that combat phase and mine in turn 2 (bringing my kill point total to 3), and I immobilised the other land raider. I spent the ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME running away, and ended up winning 3 KPs to 2. Its just not right for a healthy game, where effectively the only way I had of winning was to not play - his ranged firepower trumped mine save for my missile launchers, and with I6 force weapons I wasn't ever in danger of winning a fight. Biggest bone of contention, though, was the dreadnought. I kept stunning it with my Baal, but it kept ignoring it with that stupid psychic test and eventually popped the Baal, that would have been safe about 80% of the rest of the time. The problem is that nothing can really contend with them in combat (halberds are stupid), and their ranged fire is so good (an effective 30" fire range, the only frontline troops that can match that are Fire Warriors). They're good in all phases of the game, and the "balancing factor" of low numbers is actually an edge in Kill Point missions.

 

My biggest gripe, and its an odd one, I freely admit, is Grand Strategy. Grand Strategy is the culmination of all that is wrong with 5th edition at the moment. When it was first launched, the whole point was to make the game based around the humble troops choices, with them being the only things able to control objectives, and objective based missions being 1/3 of the total games. We've seen creep of other units being allowed into the troops slot by allowing HQ units to effectively 'unlock' them, but Grand Strategy just knocks this idea into the ground and dances on its grave by allowing you to make ANYTHING scoring, which simply defeats the purpose. So you have a massive monstrous creature that's a beast in shooting and combat, you can upgrade it to teleport across the battlefield, and you can make it scoring? Really? At times it feels like someone went through the book in its final playtest phases, found all the GK's weak spots, and then decided to make changes to combat it.

 

On the "Mat Ward writes OP codices" front - yes, his books do tend towards the powerful end of the spectrum more often than not. However, what people don't seem to be taking into account, is that the more books he does, the less of an issue this becomes. If Mat Ward writes 3 codices out of the 15 and they're all extremely powerful, its an issue. If he's done 8 out of 15 and they're all extremely powerful, that's much less of an issue.

[*Furyou Miko]

The problem is that he hasn't done that.

 

He co-wrote the Sisters list (pretty much limited to telling Cruddace to take out all the complicated stuff), then wrote the Necron book (which has one viable Elite unit, two at a push in stupidly large games). Neither of these books are overwhelmingly powerful (unless you allow the Sisters to take Repressors then don't field power armour against them), but both suffer from people looking at them, seeing Ward's name, and shrugging in the assumption they're broken (this forum is special in that most of you have actually READ the sisters list!)

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

You underestimate the power of Necrons. When you read through the codex and have a minor understanding of the rules, they are insanely good, and I actually like the fact that they're extremely powerful because they change the game. They aren't an in your face kill you, it's more that you can't kill them, and that when they do decide to kill you, it's with a vast amount of force. 17 Wraiths, or a scarab swarm, or whatever you use are all incredibly good.

[*Furyou Miko]

... my other army is Necrons. I'm fully aware that they have some very powerful stuff, I'm just saying that their Elites section is mostly useless, and the fact they have no "unlock" abilities (Wraiths and Scarabs compete for Fast Attack, and you can't make either of them anything else. You can't make Wraiths scoring, and you can't make Lychguard troops, for example) sets them apart from the stereotypical Ward-dex.

 

You can put 18 Wraiths in a Necron army, if you pour all your points into Fast Attack (that's 3 units of 6). However, you'll be very low on Scoring units (since you'll be using small units of Warriors most likely) and the entire army will be incredibly fragile (Wraiths are only T4 with 2 wounds, and don't have Ressurection Protocols, while Warriors onyl have a 4+ save and in small units probably won't be getting back up again either).

 

Please don't assume that just because I'm a girl and a Sisters player means I'm a complete moron.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Don't worry, no sexism, armyism, or moron assumptions over here. Sorry if you took offense from anything. To consider, I give you this list, run by the man who won the SVDM GT.

 

Spidey0804 wrote:

Its kinda cool that the eldar we in the disuccion this week. At SVDM GT the top table was Necrons and an Eldar player. I dont know the lists but I know the Crons ended up winning with 18 wraiths in the list. The Eldar guy was based around a jetbike seer council.

 

 

I was unfortunately the guy who played him first round, giving me an instant zero on my Space Wolves, which put the Space Wolves out of the running, as I was THE Space Wolf player. I've got his list here. It's utterly terrifying when you have all those Wraiths running around killing everything. Everything except the two Command Barges pretty much stayed in the backfield and shot, which meant I couldn't get close enough to kill him. My Long Fangs did continue their ultimate close combat masters streak, though. He was a great guy, though, and it was at least enjoyable to lose.

 

HQ:

Overlord x2

Warscythe, Command Barge w/ Tesla Cannon

 

Royal Court #1

Destruction Cryptek w/ Pulse, Destruction Cryptek, Despair Cryptek w/ Veil

 

Royal Court #2

Destruction Cryptek w/ Pulse, Destruction Cryptek

 

Troops:

Immortals(7)

Tesla

 

Immortals(5) x3

Tesla

 

Fast Attack(The Pain Slot):

Wraiths(6) x2

3x Whip Coil, 1x Particle Caster

 

Wraiths(5)

3x Whip Coil

 

Heavy Support(Not So Terrifying):

Annihilation Barge x2

TL Tesla Destructor, Tesla Cannon

 

Of the games those days, the only players I lost to were Necrons, a theme that seems common among players. They are a very powerful army, especially in the hands of a knowledgable player. They are pretty much completely different from the strategies of any other army, which is something I salute Mr. Ward for. Neil and the rest of the 11th company have quite a good rundown on neurons over on the forums.

[Gentlemanloser]

With no Solar Pulses, or vehicles to hide behind, I fail to see how those Wraiths are gonna get into CC without being shot to bits. :/

[Chaplain Admetus]

The problem is that he hasn't done that.

 

He co-wrote the Sisters list (pretty much limited to telling Cruddace to take out all the complicated stuff), then wrote the Necron book (which has one viable Elite unit, two at a push in stupidly large games). Neither of these books are overwhelmingly powerful (unless you allow the Sisters to take Repressors then don't field power armour against them), but both suffer from people looking at them, seeing Ward's name, and shrugging in the assumption they're broken (this forum is special in that most of you have actually READ the sisters list!)

 

I didn't mean to imply that everything up til now was broken, so I apologise for any confusion. I've read half the sisters codex (annoyingly I missed the WD that had the other half in it), but haven't had a chance to go through the Necron one properly yet; a friend who has says that he expects to see some powerful army lists coming out soon, its just that Grey Knights are more obviously powerful. Not intending to derail the thread, so I'll make my overall thought on Grey Knights - I think they're very strong, but not unbeatable. They can do everything well, but they can't do everything well at the same time. The best way to beat them is probably in the movement phase - they shoot well, hit like a truck in combat, but if you play like a wood elf and can dictate the flow of the battle, you can stop them. I just hope that the reason they're a bit silly with 5th edition missions is that they were written with 6th in mind, so they're not as ludicrous when it rolls around. I'd like to see kill points go for starters, whoever it was earlier that said that a several hundred point paladin unit being worth the same kill points as a 35 point rhino is spot on.

[Darkmagi]

ummm first part of each court...

Destruction Cryptek w/ Pulse