So how OP are we anyway?

[breng77]

My biggest gripe, and its an odd one, I freely admit, is Grand Strategy. Grand Strategy is the culmination of all that is wrong with 5th edition at the moment. When it was first launched, the whole point was to make the game based around the humble troops choices, with them being the only things able to control objectives, and objective based missions being 1/3 of the total games. We've seen creep of other units being allowed into the troops slot by allowing HQ units to effectively 'unlock' them, but Grand Strategy just knocks this idea into the ground and dances on its grave by allowing you to make ANYTHING scoring, which simply defeats the purpose. So you have a massive monstrous creature that's a beast in shooting and combat, you can upgrade it to teleport across the battlefield, and you can make it scoring? Really? At times it feels like someone went through the book in its final playtest phases, found all the GK's weak spots, and then decided to make changes to combat it.

 

NOt sure how OP grand Strategy is. In your example you are spending Around 250 points on that Mosterous Creature (if you want him to be able to shoot at all), and then probably another 200 on the Grand Master...So unless you routinely play huge games you are looking at around 1/3 to 1/4th of your army spent in 2 units.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

Without Grand Strategy there would be no reason whatsoever to play a Grand Master as he would otherwise be an overpriced SM Captain who neither boosts the army and is mediocre at best in close combat (3 A). In that case everyone would simply play a Scriptor just like SM, BA, and SW (with the exception of TWC-Lords) players do. Is that something you would prefer?

Ward did a great job with Grand Strategy as it actually gives GK player a viable alternative to all the wizards we see in other SM Codices. D3 units is very random, nearly too random to plan your list around it. Imagine a SM Biker captain who could only turn D3 biker units into troops. Nobody would play SM biker lists if that was the case. On top of that most of the units you can make scoring are quite expensive, add the costs of the GM (+ the Raider/Raven he'll most likely use because of his TDA) and the mandatory Troop-units you have to buy anyway to that and you pay quite a lot of points to make 1-3 MCs, Paladins, Dreadnoughts or other Elite/Support units scoring.

[the jeske]

NOt sure how OP grand Strategy is. In your example you are spending Around 250 points on that Mosterous Creature (if you want him to be able to shoot at all), and then probably another 200 on the Grand Master...So unless you routinely play huge games you are looking at around 1/3 to 1/4th of your army spent in 2 units.

being able to take paladins and make them troops without the use of draigo [lets say tournament says no specials or you dont have the points for draigo . or you could run draigo but want to run granades instead etc].

 

making a NDK scout . making a big unit of paladins scout . making a unit of interceptors scout and charge first turn multi charging Long fangs . etc etc etc. GS is a very good rule.

[breng77]

yes GS is a good rule, I'm not saying its not, but it is hardly over powered. I mean all of those things cost a good amount of points, and it is random, so it is not as if you can run 2 Grand masters, 3 Dreadknights, 3 Intercepter squads, and scout with all of them, etc.

[the jeske]

If it means you can take a 10 man paladin unit without draigo and still make it scoring it is OP enough . imagine SW player making his WG scoring by taking a wolf lord or a chaos lord making termis or anything else scoring too . It is a free rule with no handicaps .

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not free.

 

It's part of the price increase the GKGM has over the GKBC.

[the jeske]

your kiding right . the cpt is a dead slot HQ just like champ . there is no price increase because GM are the only ones viable to take [other then specials or libby out of which have different use then the GM]. its like saying the old sob cannoness was "just " a price increase comparing to the palatin . the GM gets stuff for free . If another dex player wants to use an elite units he either does a deathstar[high cost , non scoring and coupled with its cost means fewer troops/scoring units] , or takes a special or needs a dex that makes a unit X troop for him [bA and RAS for example. sm cpts and bikes. belial and DA termis].

A GM lets you ignore that because you will always be able to turn your deathstar unit in to a scoring one . This automaticly means all GK armies at worse draw in KP games[like 1/3 of all] , unless the GK player is incompetent . And all of this is on top of being able to take hvy weapons , being +2I all the time with force weapons and getting grandes .

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I'd never use the GKBC. But TGS *is* part of the cost increase the GM has over the BC.

 

That the BC is at best redundant, at worse, useless, is part of the bad internal Balance of the 'dex.

 

You either take the GM, becuase for the increase he's the better choice. Or if you want to go 'lite' you take an OM Inq in TDA.

 

But TGS *isn't* free. We pay for it.

[greatcrusade08]

But TGS *isn't* free. We pay for it.

 

perhaps the question should be.. "do you pay enough for it" given its obvious advantages in game, maybe its severly undercosted?

[Drachnon]

Or perhaps the question should be if 175 points is too cheap what would you think is a fair price for the GM? Personally I think the 25 points increase over the brother captain is pretty reasonable. If they had made him 200 points I think he might have been a bit overpriced.

[breng77]

But if you compare the gm to say a wolf lord you pay an additional 75 points and without Cotaez your base troops run you more points. It is a good rule but based on the fact that other than dragon I never see a gm in top lists would suggest that he is not overpowered.

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.

 

And Draigo is usually taken for his automatic ability to make Pallies Troops, without haveing to resort to TGS (and possibly leavign that open for one of the other, powerful, uses, usually overlooked in favour of Scoring).

[worloch]

It seems like GK's are considered overpowered when you take their Special Characters that allow elites to become troops ...

 

Perhaps it can just be boiled down to the simple premise that allowing Elites to become Troops can be game breaking as it allows for more of them to be taken (spamming) and it allows them to claim?

 

 

I don't think Grenades, Force Weapons, Psychic powers, Psibolts or anything else is the issue so much as the above.

 

 

My local gaming group doesn't normally play with Special Characters, and we haven't had nearly the amount of issues that seem to mentioned here.

[breng77]

That is somewhat true, if your only troop options are Strikes or Termies, it is a lot more limiting. As then you end up paying a minumum of 100 points per troop choice (more if you want them to be useful), which takes away from points being spent elsewhere. I would not say I'm against having a SC that makes elites troops (that is pretty common actually), the issue is that GKs have 3.

[dswanick]

It seems like GK's are considered overpowered when you take their Special Characters that allow elites to become troops ...

 

Perhaps it can just be boiled down to the simple premise that allowing Elites to become Troops can be game breaking as it allows for more of them to be taken (spamming) and it allows them to claim?

 

 

I don't think Grenades, Force Weapons, Psychic powers, Psibolts or anything else is the issue so much as the above.

 

 

My local gaming group doesn't normally play with Special Characters, and we haven't had nearly the amount of issues that seem to mentioned here.

I don't think this is true at all. Several armies have a Special Character which makes an Elites choice into a Troops choice (Space Wolves and Dark Angels spring to mind).

 

It's not about any one upgrade, special rule, or wargear item that makes Grey Knights "OP" - it's all of them together in a package which isn't costed or limited/hindered to reflect all the benefts.

[adamv6]

It's not about any one upgrade, special rule, or wargear item that makes Grey Knights "OP" - it's all of them together in a package which isn't costed or limited/hindered to reflect all the benefts.

 

I don't buy that statement at all. My son plays SW and Logan can do some frightening things, which IMHO, make GS and Draigo look petty. 1st turn he runs with Long Fangs, making them relentless. Next turn he slips into a GH pack and gives them PE or Fearless. Roll PE with Living Legend and the fact that Draigo makes Paladins troops and has GS is a damp squib.

 

Astral Aim vs Fire Control? FC any day of the week. 180 points for a 5man Purg squad with Psycannons. 155 points for a 4 man Long Fang squad with 4 plasma cannons, who can split fire between 2 targets.

 

Every codex has combinations that are wrong on so many levels. IMHO, the bloke who won adepticon should take himself into a corner and cry. His list was pretty much every lowdown combination in our 'dex.

 

For me, I love our 'dex. It gives me hundreds of great options to (if I want) never play the same game twice.

[*Furyou Miko]

I can't think of a combination that's "wrong on so many levels" in the Necron book (sticking to Warddexes to avoid him being an issue).

 

Wraiths with Whip Coils are good, but... what do you combo them with? Triarch Praetorians? Don't make me laugh.

[adamv6]

It is a good rule but based on the fact that other than dragon I never see a gm in top lists would suggest that he is not overpowered

 

Breng77, the winner of Adepticon (his list is posted in this topic) ran Coteaz and a GM. And 5x 3 man WA squads all with dedicated transports, and a small slice of edam and a wedge of Cheddar. He had some Stilton in reserve.

 

His list made me want to :)

[breng77]

Never seen his list so I don't know what is in it but I doubt as if the gm was the nasty part.

 

As for necrons, orikan + writhing world scape is pretty nasty. Immotek + cronometron cryptek is also good. The wraiths you mentioned + night fighting for 4-7 turns.

[adamv6]

Breng, his list was basically.

 

A GM, Coteaz, 2 Purifier squads with 4 psycannons and Rhinos, 5 3man WA squads (no upgrades) with 2 psybacks and 3 ML chimeras, a 6man DCA squad with psyback and 3 PsyRifle Dreads.

[breng77]

Similar to a list I used to play. It is good but hardly overpowered. I would surmise his win was more based off skill than an op list.

[*Furyou Miko]

Night Fighting is useless, the average spotting distance is 17", which is pretty much bolter range.

 

Orikan + Writhing Worldscape isn't that effective. I've run it. People just don't roll that many ones on dangerous terrain unless they're really unlucky.

 

As for Imotekh's lightning (the only reason to use the chronometron with him)... even with two chronometrons in his unit, it almost never hits anything. Overall, it's pretty pathetic.

 

The only special characters worth taking in the Necron book are the Zahndrek/Obyron combo, and Anrakyr, and even Anrakyr is only really worth it in a CCB against vehicle-heavy lists. Orikan with Writhing Worldscape is a nasty trick, but it's not reliable and you're seriously better off just spamming TransmoTeks than splashing out on Orikan (you can have an Overlord with 4 TransmoTeks for the cost of Orikan)!

[RedemptionNL]

Night Fighting is useless, the average spotting distance is 17", which is pretty much bolter range.

Which also happens to be the charge range of Scarabs and Wraiths.

[Gentlemanloser]

I can't think of a combination that's "wrong on so many levels" in the Necron book (sticking to Warddexes to avoid him being an issue).

 

Wait till 6th (with Necrons being the last 5th Codex, they had to be built with 6th in mind) and watch guass rip vehicles apart.

 

<_<

[dswanick]

I can't think of a combination that's "wrong on so many levels" in the Necron book (sticking to Warddexes to avoid him being an issue).

 

Wait till 6th (with Necrons being the last 5th Codex, they had to be built with 6th in mind) and watch guass rip vehicles apart.

 

<_<

Or ... watch Necrons get the "Codex: Chaos Space Marines was made with 5th Edition in mind" treatment.