So how OP are we anyway?

[Gentlemanloser]

Ward didn't do CSM! <_<

 

And if the 'Hull Point' stuff is true, Gauss is gonna rip stuff apart!

[Hellios]

Ward didn't do CSM! <_<

 

And if the 'Hull Point' stuff is true, Gauss is gonna rip stuff apart!

 

I guess the question is... will they make vehicles tougher in other ways? Because the Eldar 74 S6 shots a turn spam looks better if I can just stun things to death.

 

Pulse rifles on Tau would be a bit meaner... The impact it will have depends on the impact it has on all the other armies as well.

[breng77]

Night Fighting is useless, the average spotting distance is 17", which is pretty much bolter range.

 

Orikan + Writhing Worldscape isn't that effective. I've run it. People just don't roll that many ones on dangerous terrain unless they're really unlucky.

 

As for Imotekh's lightning (the only reason to use the chronometron with him)... even with two chronometrons in his unit, it almost never hits anything. Overall, it's pretty pathetic.

 

The only special characters worth taking in the Necron book are the Zahndrek/Obyron combo, and Anrakyr, and even Anrakyr is only really worth it in a CCB against vehicle-heavy lists. Orikan with Writhing Worldscape is a nasty trick, but it's not reliable and you're seriously better off just spamming TransmoTeks than splashing out on Orikan (you can have an Overlord with 4 TransmoTeks for the cost of Orikan)!

 

Night fighting average spotting distance is 21" (7x3), but the max is 36" which means it is easy to stay out of heavy weapon range. Bolters don't really scare things like Wraiths or most necrons for that matter.

 

The Orikan Combo is nasty against armies(especially Mech) in the Dawn of war mission because if units fail to make it onto the table they die (which about 1/3 vehicles should fail).

 

The cronometron for imotekh is best used to keep night fighting up, but you think that is not worth it. I just see forcing an opponent to roll for night fighting every turn as being very powerful in certain builds with Crons.

 

I actually don't rate Anrakyr at all since it is now debatable if he can even use his ability while embarked on a transport.

[Stromal]

well, GK are the elite of the elite and so on, i get that, what i dont get is this:

They have the cheapes HQ available in any codex at 25pt for an inq and the cheapest scoring unit in a 12pt warrior acolyte squad.

 

12pts to be able to take a razorback.... really?

 

at 1850 you could run

6 scoring razorbacks with str7 assault cannons, 3 regular psyfle dreads, 3 ven psyfle dreads, coteaz and still have points for a grand master to make a couple of dreads scoring :P

[*Furyou Miko]

You're joking, right? Bolters scare Wraiths more than lascannons do.

 

Bolters hit and wound on a 4+, and you can point a lot more of them at a wraith squad than you can lascannons under most circumstances... and the best way to break through a 3++ invulnerable save is by throwing lots of dice at it.

 

You can use the Chronometron for both - night fighting is rolled in the movement phase, lightning is rolled in the shooting phase, I believe.

 

I hadn't thought about combining DoW with Orikan, but the obvious answer is just to hold everything in reserve.

 

Of course Anrakyr can use Mind in the Machine from the back of a barge. It's open-topped, that means you can draw line of sight from it. Otherwise, it would be impossible to shoot out of an open-topped vehicle.

[breng77]

Bolters hit and wound on a 4+, and you can point a lot more of them at a wraith squad than you can lascannons under most circumstances... and the best way to break through a 3++ invulnerable save is by throwing lots of dice at it.

 

Depends 6 Wraiths all wound allocated, take 63 bolter shots on average to kill one Wraith (though I don't think they can all be different so it is probably closer to 35-40). It only takes 5.4 lascannon shots.

 

You can use the Chronometron for both - night fighting is rolled in the movement phase, lightning is rolled in the shooting phase, I believe.

 

Yup

 

I hadn't thought about combining DoW with Orikan, but the obvious answer is just to hold everything in reserve.

 

Which means more turns for the necron player not to get shot at, more turns to spawn scarabs etc....

 

Of course Anrakyr can use Mind in the Machine from the back of a barge. It's open-topped, that means you can draw line of sight from it. Otherwise, it would be impossible to shoot out of an open-topped vehicle.

 

It is contentious at best, there is no rule that says open topped allows you to draw LOS for abilities any different than a firepoint. The only rules are that there are no distinct firepoints but that you can shoot with everything.

 

Anyway, I look at the whole Necron Vs. GK power things as being Necrons are very powerful, for an experienced player, with practice, GKs can be powerful for even unexperienced players, but do not gain nearly as much in the hands of a skilled player.

[worloch]

at 1850 you could run

6 scoring razorbacks with str7 assault cannons, 3 regular psyfle dreads, 3 ven psyfle dreads, coteaz and still have points for a grand master to make a couple of dreads scoring :)

 

Bolded for emphasis.

 

Take out Coteaz, and the whole thing falls apart.

 

And sure, GK are the elite of the elite (though their statline doesn't support that), but you are specifically mentioned Henchmen and Inquisitors.

 

You get 2 HQ, and you have to take an Inq to get a henchmen squad, which means you can take either a GM or a Libby but not both. That is the balance and limitation they built in, in addition to point cost - opportunity cost.

 

 

Without Crowe, Draigo or Coteaz you have to spend points on Strike Squads or GKt's. Elites as Troops in an army where we actually have some pretty good elite choices is, in my mind, the root of the issue.

[*Furyou Miko]

Killing Coteaz does pretty much nothing. All his powerful stuff affects the army list or set-up. Once the game starts, he's just a falconer with a mallet.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Killing Coteaz does pretty much nothing. All his powerful stuff affects the army list or set-up. Once the game starts, he's just a falconer with a mallet.

 

Better than a falconer with a mullet

[doshin]

I've played GK since the oiginal 'dex and like many of us vets played in the dark days of 4th and early 5th ed when we where outdated. Is it sour grapes or isthere truth, has matt ward made us op?

 

...those weren't the early days. Rocked GK with the stock rules in 2nd Ed. Knew a few guys that ran them in Rogue Trader.

[Stromal]

well, if you dont wanna roll with crowe/coteaz/draigo you can still roll a 25pt hq to fill up that foc requirement... this is cheaper then the cheapest orc choice....

[*Furyou Miko]

I remember the days when Inquisitors were 45 points + gear + at least 3 henchmen...

[worloch]

Killing Coteaz does pretty much nothing. All his powerful stuff affects the army list or set-up. Once the game starts, he's just a falconer with a mallet.

When I said "take him out" I didn't mean on the board; I meant take him out of the list, and suddenly the whole thing falls apart. No Henchmen as troops, forced to use 1 of 2 HQ slots just to get an Inquisitor to get 1 squad of henchmen who are elites and not troops ... not even in the same ballpark.

 

 

well, if you dont wanna roll with crowe/coteaz/draigo you can still roll a 25pt hq to fill up that foc requirement... this is cheaper then the cheapest orc choice....

 

Other armies might want to lowball their HQ choice, but in GK, we actually have some really nice choices. Our HQ's actually have to compete for those slots due to points and FoC restrictions.

 

Librarian brings all those nice Psychic powers that everybody hates, like Sanctuary, Shrouding, Might of Titan, etc.

Grand Master brings Grand Strategy, and we all know how people hate it when your elites or heavy choices start claiming objectives.

Inquisitor is the cheapo option, if you want, but they bring a variety of good options as well, and an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is a cheap way to get a Terminator Armor w/ Pyscannon on the board. Don't forget that if you don't take the GM, you can get Psychic Communion from an Inquisitor but not a Librarian.

 

 

I guess what I'm responding with here is that we still have strong HQ choices even if we choose not to roll with 1 of the 3 specials who enable elites as troops.