The Chaos Gods

[Kol Saresk]

Okay as far as I am aware(please feel free to enlighten with sources), the Chaos Gods have been around forever. Or at least Chaos has. Now, I know Slaanesh was birthed by the Eldar. But I heard recently that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were all created from humans. Now if we put aside the fact that a psychically inferior species created three gods while a psychically superior one only gave birth to one god, aren't the eldar supposed to be older than humanity? So if that is the case, and Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch are all human-created, just what forces of Chaos were the Eldar fighting before Slaanesh and humanity existed?

 

Does that line of thinking even work out?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

It might be simply that because the Eldar were simply so dominant that they didn't need to worry about life (so no despair), or about getting attached to anything replaceable, which was everything (so no hate), or be vastly concerned about getting a better life as they were all already at the top of the food chain (so no hope). Thus there was no real fuel for the Chaos Gods, who rely on such things.

 

Humans, when they got their chance to develop, did so through war and what not, and war breeds despair that one might live, hatred for the enemy, and hope that they could actually win. And along with the humans so too did other races develop - but humanity created and fed the Dark Gods the most, hence them being 'human' Chaos Gods.

[TheDarkApostle]

First of all, the is a difference between giving "birth", and giving "sentience".

 

All of the Gods existed for quite some time before being "born" as they achieved sentience.

 

Now that that's out of the way;

 

Humans are pretty much the only species in the galaxy with emotions, which is what allowed the Gods to achieve "sentience" in the first place.

 

The Eldar and Ork, while having a massive psychic potential have never really been that emotional in the way they live. The Eldar being immortal they have always had a completely difference concept of the way of things.

 

There was never any need to hate or hope or despair since they were immortal. And before the Gods of Chaos achieved sentience they could even reincarnate themselves when they got "too old", like the human Shamans.

 

I hope that clarify some.

 

The Liber Chaotica has some very good chapters on the matter in the Book of Tzeentch and the Book of Chaos Undivided.

 

TDA

[Emperors Immortals]

i understand that the Eldar birthed there own pantheon - that is Khaine, the Laughing god etc. with Slaanesh the result of unrestrained decadence.

 

The big three were birthed by humanitystarting waaaaaay back in the primordial times IIRC they are our interpritation of universal forces, with the Orks making the GorkMork duality deities as there interpretation, and Tau being godless heathens.

[Chengar Qordath]

Humans are pretty much the only species in the galaxy with emotions, which is what allowed the Gods to achieve "sentience" in the first place.

 

The Eldar and Ork, while having a massive psychic potential have never really been that emotional in the way they live. The Eldar being immortal they have always had a completely difference concept of the way of things.

 

There was never any need to hate or hope or despair since they were immortal. And before the Gods of Chaos achieved sentience they could even reincarnate themselves when they got "too old", like the human Shamans.

Well, the "birth" of Slaanesh pretty solidly demonstrates that Eldar can feed Chaos. In fact Eldar naturally have much more intense emotions than humans, so they're better at feeding it.

 

Thing is, ever since the Fall the Eldar just don't have the numbers to really feed Chaos all that much compared to the far more numerous humans. Plus, pretty much everything about Craftworld society is designed to keep Eldar from falling prey to the slightest bit of Chaotic influence. Pretty sure GW took a cue from Star Trek with Eldar being highly emotional by nature, and developing a very strict society to keep all those emotions in check.

[TheDarkApostle]

If you read my post again you will note a significant absence of the emotions associated with Slaanesh. :D

 

It all goes back to the War in Heaven (Old Ones, which some imply the Eldar "Gods" are members of or at least descendants of, and the C'tan) during which the Nightbringer imprinted the fear of death in all mortal races (well, almost all, the Orks are the exception) which in turn created the tumult in the Warp which in turn allowed the Chaos Gods to start growing.

 

Then the humans got all emotional and gave sentience to Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle, and eventually some time after that the Eldar got decadent enough to give sentience to Slaanesh.

 

Too keep the story short.

 

TDA

[Kol Saresk]

Ok I think I got the gist of how it all works. Now let me see if I got it right.

 

 

Eldar were before humans. And despite their psychic potency, their relative lack of emotions combined with their view on life prevents them from feeding the "pre-pubescent" Chaos Gods. Humans come along and while less receptive to the warp, their out-of-control emotions feed everyone but Slaanesh enough to help them achieve maturity and become full-fledged Chaos Gods. Eventually the Eldar reach a point in their self-indulgences that they give Slaanesh the wriggle room that he/she/it to achieve ascendance and cause the Fall because his/her/its parents hated him/her/it.

[TheDarkApostle]

Pretty much.

 

Worth to also note is that the birth of Slaanesh / the Fall coincidentally also through spawning the Eye of Terror also blew away the warpstorms that had pretty much isolated every single system in the universe for the past X millenia.

 

Which triggered the Great Crusade spearheaded by the Emperah.

 

And the rest is history as we say. ;)

 

TDA

[Hellios]

Actually It isn't that the Eldar had a lack of emotion, they can feel things that humans can't. I think their own gods protected them while they still existed. The Eldar's hate and anger was focused into Khaine rather than Khorne. It takes very few Eldar to make a powerful god... Compared to Humans and so on... If Ynnead is really going to be powerful enough to destroy Slaanesh...

[Chengar Qordath]

Time to clear up some misconceptions here; the following is directly from Codex:Eldar (4th edition)

 

"The Eldar mind is far more inclined towards extremes than that of a Human. To an Eldar, all of life's experiences are available to a heightened degree; the intellectual rewards of study, the exhilaration of battle, and every imaginable pleasure or sensation. This capacity for joy paralleled by an equal capacity to feel anger, despair, and even hatred."

 

That quote was also reproduced more or less word-for-word in the 5th edition BRB.

 

Also worth noting that aside from Farseers, Eldar aren't immune to death from old age, they just have very long lifespans (around 1000 years according to their Codex).

[Hellios]

Time to clear up some misconceptions here; the following is directly from Codex:Eldar (4th edition)

 

"The Eldar mind is far more inclined towards extremes than that of a Human. To an Eldar, all of life's experiences are available to a heightened degree; the intellectual rewards of study, the exhilaration of battle, and every imaginable pleasure or sensation. This capacity for joy paralleled by an equal capacity to feel anger, despair, and even hatred."

 

That quote was also reproduced more or less word-for-word in the 5th edition BRB.

 

Also worth noting that aside from Farseers, Eldar aren't immune to death from old age, they just have very long lifespans (around 1000 years according to their Codex).

 

They used to be immortal... :< because they were able to have their souls reborn into new bodies... and then the warp became to busy and it became difficult to do... and now with slaanesh it is absolutely impossible. You are right that they can die... although they have some sort of immortality within the infinity circuit.

[Dammeron]

The Liber Chaotica points out that attempting to apply standard dynamics of linear time; of cause and affect to Chaos or the Warp in general is redundant, since the potentia it consists of is all possibilities simultaneously sloshing around at once. Though Slaanesh is ostensibly the "youngest" of the Chaos gods (with Khorne being the eldest), the Chaos God has always existed in terms of potential; in a diffuse, unconscious state, as all of the Chaos Gods have in way, shape or form. When the background talks about the "birth" of the Chaos Gods, what it actually means is their eruption into coherent consciousness; not their existence per se. Thus the Chaos Gods have always existed to some lesser or greater degree, but apparently it took the development of a conscious entity such as humanity (and the Eldar) to bring them to their current states. It's entirely possible that another dynamic existed before Chaos; the forms, names and natures of the powers being somewhat removed from what they are now, with reference to the drives and preconceptions of some other species. If the dynamic that we call Chaos were to fail for whatever reason, the Four Great Powers would simply collapse into a less coherent state, ready for their constituent energies to be reshaped again by another conscious species.

[Lord_Caerolion]

In my opinion, the Eldar Gods were their "Chaos Gods". The difference between humans and Eldar is that they, as a species, accepted their flaws. They accepted that death comes to all things, that each of them could be a murderer, and so on, whereas we demonise our flaws. As an example, one of the main descriptions you see thrown around when discussing murderers is "inhuman". We cannot accept that rage is an inherent part of what we are.

As such, the Eldar created Khaine, while we made Khorne. They made Lileath, while we made Tzeentch. They made Morai-Heg, while we made Nurgle. True, they have some others, and there are small amounts of overlap, but by and large, the Eldar accepted the bad sides of their nature, and so their warp-echos came to reflect that acceptance. We, on the other hand, distanced ourselves from the flaws, and called them evil, and demonised them, and so they acted like what we believed they are, and became evil and demonic.

 

Also, for this entire post, I just have to add, pun not intended.

[Dammeron]

In my opinion, the Eldar Gods were their "Chaos Gods". The difference between humans and Eldar is that they, as a species, accepted their flaws. They accepted that death comes to all things, that each of them could be a murderer, and so on, whereas we demonise our flaws. As an example, one of the main descriptions you see thrown around when discussing murderers is "inhuman". We cannot accept that rage is an inherent part of what we are.

As such, the Eldar created Khaine, while we made Khorne. They made Lileath, while we made Tzeentch. They made Morai-Heg, while we made Nurgle. True, they have some others, and there are small amounts of overlap, but by and large, the Eldar accepted the bad sides of their nature, and so their warp-echos came to reflect that acceptance. We, on the other hand, distanced ourselves from the flaws, and called them evil, and demonised them, and so they acted like what we believed they are, and became evil and demonic.

 

Also, for this entire post, I just have to add, pun not intended.

 

 

I really think that's it in a nutshell: the dynamic of Chaos is one of neurosis and extremism, born of humanity's own inabilities to accepot and mediate it's own inalienable drives and dreads. Before humanity came along and crystallised what we now call "Chaos," the vorticies that would eventually become the Four Great Powers were likely influenced and sculpted by myriad other conscious species, their many forms and faces determined in a very different way from how they now manifest. Humanity is very particular with regards to the Warp, since, along with the Eldar, the species seems particularly attuned to it; influencing its energies to a degree beyond that of other species such as orks, the Necrontyr and so on and so forth. All conscious species feed and influence Chaos to some greater or lesser degree, but it is currently humanity who determine and maintain the dynamic we know as Chaos. The evil irony of it all is, Chaos has become conscious of itself; the Four Great Powers are not passive by-products of this condition; they know all too well what they have to do to sustain themselves, and therefore influence the behaviour of conscious creatures to do so. Thus we have a condition of self sustaining calamity; of the most destructive and malevolent extremism imaginable, that will likely endure as long as reality itself does. There is very little hope of escaping Chaos in the 40K universe without some kind of universe-spanning cataclysm that would eradicate most of the conscious creatures that inhabit it (The Tyranids are one such possibility).

[darth_giles]

As such, the Eldar created Khaine, while we made Khorne.

As a side note, didn't Khaine go try to fight Khorne once, and nothing came of it because they were aspects of the same entity? The Eldar worshipped Khaine as a god of bloodlust and martial prowess, while humans worship Khorne strictly as a god of bloodlust. Slaanesh absorbed martial prowess into her domain because for some reason humans always split the two into different gods. Ares and Athena, and all that.

 

Either way, the Chaos gods are a good reflection of how humans reject their base desires and refuse to find a way to use them for good.

[Kol Saresk]

I would actually think of Ares as Slaanesh due to vanity(the mythological version of the Trojan War) before I thought of him as Khorne. Not too sure if any of the Greek Pantheon would fit into Khorne although he would be a close fit. Maybe Mars from the Roman Pantheon. And yes there are cultural differences between Ares and Mars. For example, Mars was originally believed to have been an agricultural deity who kept pests away from the crops. Eventually he turned into a deity who protected the homeland from invaders.

 

But then again Mars was a bit more, self-controlled than Ares was.

[Artein]

As such, the Eldar created Khaine, while we made Khorne.

As a side note, didn't Khaine go try to fight Khorne once, and nothing came of it because they were aspects of the same entity? The Eldar worshipped Khaine as a god of bloodlust and martial prowess, while humans worship Khorne strictly as a god of bloodlust. Slaanesh absorbed martial prowess into her domain because for some reason humans always split the two into different gods. Ares and Athena, and all that.

 

Either way, the Chaos gods are a good reflection of how humans reject their base desires and refuse to find a way to use them for good.

 

I believe it was Khaine fighting Slaanesh and Khorne saved Khaine because they share same domain or something like that. It's one of the reasons that Khorne and Slaanesh don't like each other.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Its clearly stated in fluff that Slaanesh is the youngest of the Four -- thus one of his titles, "Prince of Chaos" -- and yet some of are you saying that humanity awoke/created/etc the other three? Consider your timelines folks, that doesn't work. Also consider some of the other fluff we've had that dictate the sidereal timing of the Chaos Gods' "lives."

 

For instance, in the third of book of the Eisenhorn trilogy, the heroes are trying to stop an arch-heretic from finding and activating a weapon once used by a Chaos God that was rival of Khorne, and these events were mentioned as having occurred so long ago that not even Ravenor's pointy-eared friends had first-hand knowledge of the event. Also, if memory serves, there's a line in there about how their source references only three major powers in the warp, not four, which confused the Inquisitors.

 

This can only mean that the "original" three gods existed prior to the rise of the Eldar, at which point the Earth was still a radiation-hammered ball of rock. Remember that the beginning of the 40K timeline is really the coming of the Old Ones, their creation of the Eldar, orks, etc, and the War in Heaven against the C'tan and Necrontyr. We have no knowledge of any life in the galaxy before this time, and the fluff only concentrates on the major movers and shakers of galactic history. The Original Three may have been fuelled -- in fact, probably were -- by nautrally evolved races that were never significant enough to take center stage. There could have been an entire species of xenos who were just as receptive of the Warp as humanity or the Eldar are, and fought brutal and bloody wars against themselves for millennia before the Old Ones ever showed up, and those wars would have been a big part of empowering Khorne.

 

Useless specualation aside, my point is that the one thing that we, the readers on the outside looking in, know for sure is that the Chaos Gods are old, older than the Imperium's recorded history, older than the Eldar's as well. They are referred to as the Primordial Creator and the Primordial Annihilator, and always remember that the key word there is "Primordial."

 

From Dictionary.com, primordial:

 

1. constituting a beginning; giving origin to something derived or developed; original; elementary

 

2. first formed.

 

3. pertaining to or existing at or from the very beginning

 

 

Emphasis mine.

[Kol Saresk]

As such, the Eldar created Khaine, while we made Khorne.

As a side note, didn't Khaine go try to fight Khorne once, and nothing came of it because they were aspects of the same entity? The Eldar worshipped Khaine as a god of bloodlust and martial prowess, while humans worship Khorne strictly as a god of bloodlust. Slaanesh absorbed martial prowess into her domain because for some reason humans always split the two into different gods. Ares and Athena, and all that.

 

Either way, the Chaos gods are a good reflection of how humans reject their base desires and refuse to find a way to use them for good.

 

I believe it was Khaine fighting Slaanesh and Khorne saved Khaine because they share same domain or something like that. It's one of the reasons that Khorne and Slaanesh don't like each other.

According to Lexicanum and the wiki, Khaine was attacked and dominated(their choice of word) by Slaanesh. Khorne then attacked Slaanesh, claiming that Khaine was part of his property. Then it goes to Khaine going to the mortal plane and splitting into the Avatars.

 

Its clearly stated in fluff that Slaanesh is the youngest of the Four -- thus one of his titles, "Prince of Chaos" -- and yet some of are you saying that humanity awoke/created/etc the other three? Consider your timelines folks, that doesn't work. Also consider some of the other fluff we've had that dictate the sidereal timing of the Chaos Gods' "lives."

 

For instance, in the third of book of the Eisenhorn trilogy, the heroes are trying to stop an arch-heretic from finding and activating a weapon once used by a Chaos God that was rival of Khorne, and these events were mentioned as having occurred so long ago that not even Ravenor's pointy-eared friends had first-hand knowledge of the event. Also, if memory serves, there's a line in there about how their source references only three major powers in the warp, not four, which confused the Inquisitors.

 

This can only mean that the "original" three gods existed prior to the rise of the Eldar, at which point the Earth was still a radiation-hammered ball of rock. Remember that the beginning of the 40K timeline is really the coming of the Old Ones, their creation of the Eldar, orks, etc, and the War in Heaven against the C'tan and Necrontyr. We have no knowledge of any life in the galaxy before this time, and the fluff only concentrates on the major movers and shakers of galactic history. The Original Three may have been fuelled -- in fact, probably were -- by nautrally evolved races that were never significant enough to take center stage. There could have been an entire species of xenos who were just as receptive of the Warp as humanity or the Eldar are, and fought brutal and bloody wars against themselves for millennia before the Old Ones ever showed up, and those wars would have been a big part of empowering Khorne.

 

Useless specualation aside, my point is that the one thing that we, the readers on the outside looking in, know for sure is that the Chaos Gods are old, older than the Imperium's recorded history, older than the Eldar's as well. They are referred to as the Primordial Creator and the Primordial Annihilator, and always remember that the key word there is "Primordial."

 

From Dictionary.com, primordial:

 

1. constituting a beginning; giving origin to something derived or developed; original; elementary

 

2. first formed.

 

3. pertaining to or existing at or from the very beginning

 

 

Emphasis mine.

That's what I thought. Which is kind of why I posted this as I was confused.

[darth_giles]

Not so much that humans created the other chaos gods, but they certainly gave them character. Humans have been in the galaxy for what, more than 10,000 years (after all, the Great Crusade was more about rediscovery and reunification than colonization), which is a lot longer than Slaanesh has been around.

 

Now, if I may offer a contrasting bit of fluff, the Warp wasn't quite the nasty place it was when the Eldar were being born. After all, one of the things mentioned in the old Necron codex was that the War in Heaven was when the Warp started to become the nasty place we all know today. Predatory warp entities (daemons) seem to have been pretty uncommon, although common enough for the Old Ones to need to daemon-proof the Webway.

 

By the way, two questions about that. What was to stop daemons from spilling over from the Imperial parts to the normally daemon-proofed ones, and why haven't the 'Crons opened the gate from the other end yet?

 

Point is, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were already developed even if they hadn't yet matured into the uber-powerful chaos gods we all know and love; and there's evidence of Slaanesh's budding formation going all the way back to when the Nightbringer inflicted fear into the younger races. You can definitely attribute some parts of Human history to Slaanesh's unconscious influence, but that's a different topic entirely.

[TheDarkApostle]

Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.3

Doombreed was one of the first of Khorne's servants. Doombreed's true name has long been forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies which ravaged entire nations on Earth long ago, responsible for genocide and murder on a grand scale. Such wanton carnage drew the eye of the god Khorne, still relatively young, who granted the warlord the ultimate reward of Daemonhood.3

 

"Doombreed was one of the first of Khorne's servants"

 

"but he was once human"

 

So there we have a canon FACT that one of Khorne's first servants was human.

 

Regarding the whole Eldar mess I stand corrected.

 

TDA

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Its clearly stated in fluff that Slaanesh is the youngest of the Four -- thus one of his titles, "Prince of Chaos" -- and yet some of are you saying that humanity awoke/created/etc the other three? Consider your timelines folks, that doesn't work. Also consider some of the other fluff we've had that dictate the sidereal timing of the Chaos Gods' "lives."

Point taken, I hadn't considered that. And you're right, that doesn't make sense with our theories - but as TDA pointed out, Khorne, the oldest god (also mentioned in the Doombreed paragraph) made one of his first servants out of a human warlord. This sounds like a case of GW inconsistency, sadly :)

 

I believe that they tried to rectify this in the daemon codex? I remember a peice of fluff describing Slaanesh's birth, stating that because there was no time in the Warp once she/he/it was 'born' it was like Slaanesh had always been there.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I'm no longer standing with the initial theory I had already posted. I'm as looking for answers as Kol is :D

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. We know the Eldar were fighting Chaos long before humanity was even dreaming of fighting the stars. And we do know there are daemons who are not aligned to any of the great powers and every warp daemon seems to be able to say the phrase "I was old when the stars were new." it seems like. So is it possible that the Eldar were simply fighting hordes of Greater Daemon-level minor entities?

 

Or like Thirst suggested, once something exists in the warp it can move through time and act as if it always existed? By existed I mean coherent thought and conscience.

[Malthe]

The major problem with this kind of theorizing is that we have no actual knowledge of how the warp interacts with the linear, forward progressing time of the 'material' universe.

For ease of referance (and human understanding) I propose that that we forget about time-travel of all kinds in this discussion. It's a horrible plot device anyhow ;)

 

Basically I agree with what DEF put forth.

K, T and N are 'older' than S who we know was spawned by the Eldar, before the dawn of humanity.

I.e. KTN can't possibly have originated by humanity!

Do we even have any fluff that states that they were? I have not found any.

That much should be relatively clear.

 

Then we have the Doombreed paragraph, with which there is a number of problems:

1. It is written to make Doombreed look cool...

2. Eldar before Humanity

3. Why would K ever be attracted to a warlord who only slaugthered on a single tiny planet, when there is killing on a galactic scale to enjoy?

 

To make sense of it (we could also just ignore it, but I suppose ignoring bad fluff is cheating) I propose the following:

While the Big Four (sans Slannesh) have excisted since the dawn of time, doing generel mischeif, it may be that humanity was the first to actively serve them (possibly excluding dark eldar...).

As a race, in 40K, humanity is certainly power-hungry enough to commit stupidity of such magnitude.

 

Still I'm not sure if it might make more sense to forget about Doombreed... It just doesn't fit with anything we know. Which, granted, isn't a lot.

These are my guesses, but I think we need some actual quotes to support this discussion :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem is that people are assuming that Khorne has always been the dominant aspect of the Rage-Vortex in the Warp. He hasn't. Rage has existed as an entity in the Warp for far longer than Khorne has, and it has taken many guises over the millenia. Until M.31, the dominant part was Khaine, until Khorne took dominance.

 

So yes, humans created Khorne, but we didn't create Rage. Rage existed long before we even crawled from the oceans, and Gork/Mork would have been its dominant face at one time, and Khaine, or whatever other racial deity was providing the most rage to Rage.