The Chaos Gods

[Malthe]

Do you have a source for that, or are you guessing as much as I am? ;)

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm working from the Liber Chaotica, which describes Chaos as not only the Gods, but the primal emotion-vortices that they're a part of. So, Chaos existed long before humans did, as did Rage, Hope and Despair (and, to a lesser extent, Lust), but Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch are the human portions of those vortices, that just so happen to currently be the most powerful aspects of the vortices, but they are by no means the only aspects of those vortices.

[TheDarkApostle]

I can't help but think of the introduction page of the Book of Tzeentch in the Liber Chaotica:

 

"There is only one Gate," he said once more, "and only one Realm that lies beyond it. It is true that the planes of Darkness stand open before you, but also, and at the same time, the endless tiers of Light stretch up above you." Then the Messenger began to fade from view, becoming transparent, like must upon the breeze. His parting words were like a subtle knife puncturing the bladder of my false hopes. "Mortals see so much, but understand little. For as much as the Divine molds the Mortal Realms to fit its purposes, so too do the Mortal Realms mould the Divine though their actions and aspirations. You look into the Aethyr for proof of Light or a fear of finding Dark, yet the Aethyr is neither Light nor Dark, except when Mortals make it so."

 

TDA

[RolandTHTG]

The major problem with this kind of theorizing is that we have no actual knowledge of how the warp interacts with the linear, forward progressing time of the 'material' universe.

For ease of referance (and human understanding) I propose that that we forget about time-travel of all kinds in this discussion. It's a horrible plot device anyhow :)

 

Basically I agree with what DEF put forth.

K, T and N are 'older' than S who we know was spawned by the Eldar, before the dawn of humanity.

I.e. KTN can't possibly have originated by humanity!

Do we even have any fluff that states that they were? I have not found any.

That much should be relatively clear.

 

Then we have the Doombreed paragraph, with which there is a number of problems:

1. It is written to make Doombreed look cool...

2. Eldar before Humanity

3. Why would K ever be attracted to a warlord who only slaugthered on a single tiny planet, when there is killing on a galactic scale to enjoy?

 

To make sense of it (we could also just ignore it, but I suppose ignoring bad fluff is cheating) I propose the following:

While the Big Four (sans Slannesh) have excisted since the dawn of time, doing generel mischeif, it may be that humanity was the first to actively serve them (possibly excluding dark eldar...).

As a race, in 40K, humanity is certainly power-hungry enough to commit stupidity of such magnitude.

 

Still I'm not sure if it might make more sense to forget about Doombreed... It just doesn't fit with anything we know. Which, granted, isn't a lot.

These are my guesses, but I think we need some actual quotes to support this discussion ;)

'

Slaanesh's "Birth" wasn't before the dawn of humantiy, it was M30/31. It was Slaanesh's birth that created the Eye of Terror, but simultaneously 'blew away ' many of the warpstorms that were isolating systems, including Earth/Sol. Which Allowed the Great Crusade to begin.

Humans had been settling the Galaxy for at least 10,000 years before that (and possibly longer). Remember that the dating in 40k is basically still A.D./C.E. Dating. So humans have been existing as a spacefaring Species for 30000 years at the birth of Slaanesh (Give or take a couple thousand years. )

 

Slaanesh was also spawned by the Hedonistic Eldar in the Twilight of their empire. They may have existed for 100,000 years before the collapse, but its the collapse that massively changed things and made the current setting.

In earth terms, the birth of Slaanesh isn't a revolt under Tsar Peter the Great, but the warp equivalent of the russian revolution under Tsar Nicholas II, while his court is distracted and self absorbed in their palaces.

 

(OK, now I want to make a Keeper of Secrets named Ra'put'n ) (Or would he be a Nurgle Deamon?)

[Kol Saresk]

(OK, now I want to make a Keeper of Secrets named Ra'put'n ) (Or would he be a Nurgle Deamon?)

Considering the rumors that he cheated death two or three times? Keeper of Secrets.

[Aqui]

Or like Thirst suggested, once something exists in the warp it can move through time and act as if it always existed? By existed I mean coherent thought and conscience.

 

To paraphrase this bloke "Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey". :)

 

I think that, as has been mentioned, the concept of War/anger/Rage/etc, Death, fear of/despair. Change, fear of and the aspects of Lust, avarice etc have always been around, just the personification has/may have changed. Terry Pratchett has explored the concept of Gods waning and waxing (as in becoming more powerful and losing power) as Mortals (regardless of who they are), believe/disbelieve. Small Gods refers to "Om" a formerly powerful God that lost favour and became nothing more than a whisper in the breeze, until he eventually became powerful again. Hogfather refers to what happens when a God is "taken out" and all the "belief" is diverted elsewhere.

 

So then, imagine: The Eldar at their height accept that Death and Change is inevitable, and that Rage (or whatever) is a part of them, thus the Eldar aspects mentioned above are created. The being that eventually becomes known as Slaanesh is more insidious: Some realise how dangerous emotions that are her aspect (I use "Her" as Eldar refer to Slaanesh as "She who thirsts"), but others don't see it and continue to explore those sensations/emotions etc.

 

Humanity pops up and over the Millennia give rise to what we eventually know to be Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, which while are similar to their Eldar equivalents, are malevolent. The Eldar equivalents are eventually killed/hunted down/broken/torn asunder (according to Eldar legend at least), and the "original three" fill the void left by their Eldar counterparts. Eldar society goes into melt down, and Slaanesh comes into being. The eye of Terror etc all occurring after.

 

Makes sense to me at least.....

 

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that Slaanesh is a bit like the cookie monster? As in every time a Spirit stone is broken, rushes to claim the soul and goes "Om, nom, nom, nom!" ?

 

No? Just me then! ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Or like Thirst suggested, once something exists in the warp it can move through time and act as if it always existed? By existed I mean coherent thought and conscience.

 

To paraphrase this bloke "Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey". ;)

 

Whatever you do, don't blink!

[RolandTHTG]

(OK, now I want to make a Keeper of Secrets named Ra'put'n ) (Or would he be a Nurgle Deamon?)

Considering the rumors that he cheated death two or three times? Keeper of Secrets.

 

But his survival was through not dying to poison and surviving a bunch of stab and shot wounds. Hence my question.

His MO though was much more Tzeentchy than Nurgly. The survival can always be explained through preparation, or just magicing the poison away.

[Kol Saresk]

True, although his suspected libertine ways do fit Slaanesh nicely.But since he's your potential character, who and what he is is ultimately up to you.

[Chengar Qordath]

Slaanesh's "Birth" wasn't before the dawn of humantiy, it was M30/31. It was Slaanesh's birth that created the Eye of Terror, but simultaneously 'blew away ' many of the warpstorms that were isolating systems, including Earth/Sol. Which Allowed the Great Crusade to begin.

To be fair, that's a semi-recent addition to 40k canon; it used to be much further back in the timeline.

 

The retcon of when Slaanesh was born does cause some timeline wonkyness with the Horus Heresy material getting put out now; the Eldar and Dark Eldar really shouldn't be perfectly identical to their 40k selves in the immediate aftermath of Slaanesh's birth.

[darth_giles]

True, although his suspected libertarian ways do fit Slaanesh nicely.But since he's your potential character, who and what he is is ultimately up to you.

Dictionary check here. Slaanesh is a libertine, not a Libertarian.

[Kol Saresk]

True, although his suspected libertarian ways do fit Slaanesh nicely.But since he's your potential character, who and what he is is ultimately up to you.

Dictionary check here. Slaanesh is a libertine, not a Libertarian.

Corrected and noted.

 

Observation: Still got the point across since you knew what you were looking for.

[King Willy]

Time in the warp is irrelavent hence the Chaos Gods have always existed even outside time, things have always been as they are, or more correctly as they have always changed, time flows everyway and can be seen, it is likely that the actions in the warp that effect the material realm happen because the gods dictated when such things will happen, the sentience births that may only be the point in time were the gods gathered enough power to actively effect the physical universe.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Time in the warp is irrelavent hence the Chaos Gods have always existed even outside time, things have always been as they are, or more correctly as they have always changed, time flows everyway and can be seen, it is likely that the actions in the warp that effect the material realm happen because the gods dictated when such things will happen, the sentience births that may only be the point in time were the gods gathered enough power to actively effect the physical universe.

 

Yes, but that can't entirely be true. Chaos is at once both timeless and entirely dependant on the current state of things. Example, Slaanesh was "born" in M.30, and did not/could not exert any influence before then (Eldar were able to reincarnate), so even though She most definitely existed in the Warp beforehand, the Gods are limited in what influence they're allowed/able to exert on the material universe. Similarly, Nurgle is explicitly stated to rise and fall in power regularly, and then there are the countless power plays between the Gods. Think of it like a game of Monopoly, the most complex game of Monopoly ever. The people sitting around the board still exist at a set "state", regardless of the state of their "playing piece". The Chaos Gods are the same. They exist in the Warp as the players around the board, but exert influence in the mortal realm as their playing piece. Gods rise and fall in power, even dropping in or out of the game entirely, yet the players remain the same. As it stands, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are the "richest" pieces, with the Gork/Mork combo just behind them, Khaine struggling to hang on, and the Laughing God has hidden his piece. Isha/Morai-Heg/Kurnous etc are currently "bankrupted" by Slaanesh, but since the Warp is timeless, the "players" of those pieces are still sitting around the board and watching the game going on. Who knows, maybe in the centuries to come, they might be given another "life"?

[King Willy]

Thats what the hand wave of 'They Are To Alien To Comprhend' they exist in a 'state' because thats the only way we can percieve them, trying to apply words such as birth and the like is impossible, it simply that the times that they actively influence the material world is because those points in lineal time are important to the gods nature to destroy, the elder gods were very sentient in that they had complex thoughts and emotions but they each exhibited the personas of the eldar, they are gone now because of that sentience, they likely lacked the boundless emotion and formlessness that is so suited to the warp, there existance would have been purely for the sack of the eldar, acting as a geller field of sorts for there spirits to reincarnate, but at the same time only existing in the warp for a blink of the eye.

 

Meanwhile Gork/Mork are so powerful in the same ways the Chaos gods are but they are so chaotic that they can barely influence the warp before folding in on itself, like tzeentch is ever changing but they lack the ambition to be anything so cannot do anything other then attack itself which actually makes it stronger.

 

Time is irrelavent to them, everything has happened in every possible scenario that has ever happened, they are both victorious and defeated because they have always and will always exist while also never existing because they can never be a stable entity, they only appear to be as they are because that is how the observer would imprint himself on the warp, khorne being a super angry warlord, tzeentch an ever changing schemer, slaanesh a sissy herm and nurgle a lard ass

[Brother Ambroz]

Might want to check out this topic. It's similar to this one.

[Kol Saresk]

Not exactly. That one is about the circumstances needed to kill the Chaos Gods. Well, it is supposed to be. This one was just a question about their origins. Although I'm not too sure what it has turned into.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Not exactly. That one is about the circumstances needed to kill the Chaos Gods. Well, it is supposed to be. This one was just a question about their origins. Although I'm not too sure what it has turned into.

 

A metaphysical discussion on the nature of Chaos?

[Kol Saresk]

Not exactly. That one is about the circumstances needed to kill the Chaos Gods. Well, it is supposed to be. This one was just a question about their origins. Although I'm not too sure what it has turned into.

 

A metaphysical discussion on the nature of Chaos?

Yeah, let's go with that.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Not exactly. That one is about the circumstances needed to kill the Chaos Gods. Well, it is supposed to be. This one was just a question about their origins. Although I'm not too sure what it has turned into.

 

A metaphysical discussion on the nature of Chaos?

Yeah, let's go with that.

It's still a discussion on the origins of the Dark Gods. We're also discussing which source material is relevant :D