Transferring to a new chapter

[Stercus]

When a new chapter is founded, how likely is it that those marines training the new recruits are absorbed into the new chapter? I'm presuming that some of the trainers remain in the new chapter as officers, but others return to their parent organisations. Is this correct? My specific interest in this is that I am building an Imperial Fists successor chapter and have just converted a dreadnought that I feel looks good enough to deserve a back story of its own. My idea was that the dreadnought occupant was the original Imperial Fist training master at the founding of the chapter.

Does this sound reasonable, or likely?

[Brother Tyler]

GW hasn't told us definitely whether this does or does not happen, and it's entirely possible that this happens in some cases, but not others.

 

In the meantime, you'll see many DIYs that have been created here with a similar situation - one or more members of the original training cadre remaining with the new Chapter permanently.

 

Note that I'm moving this over to Liber Astartes since it has been discussed there many times.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

yes it seems highly likely. My officers in the Paladrean Knights Chapter to start with were all the training cadre.

 

Go for it!

[voi shet magir]

Almost definitely not. I just found these quotes for another thread:

"Each of the Second Found Chapters is derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared its gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line....

 

" ...more than half [of third and later founding chapters] are descended from the Ultramarines, either directly or indirectly through one of the Primogenitor Chapters."

Ultramarines

 

 

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs.

The Origins of the Legiones Astartes

 

These may not be address the problem directly, but they mean that training cadres can never become full members of other chapters; regardless of whether they have the same primarch, their gene-seeds are considered different. Each chapter has a template made from a composite of organs: a lyman's ear zygote from one marine, an oolitic kidney from another. All the marines in a chapter need to have organs identical to these: that's why a thousand sets are grown in test slaves before the chapter begins implantation.

 

Since all Imperial Commanders/Chapter Masters have the same rank, and especially in the case of marine chapters which are meant to be separate, a marine from one chapter would never be able to control another chapter. For example, an Imperial Fist taking command of a successor would give Vladimir Pugh authority over another chapter master. They had might as well have left the legions the way they were, if that could happen. Unlike the original fluff, in which marines could rotate between chapters and Illyan Nastase was an astropath before he became a full brother in the Dark Angels and then chief librarian of the Ultramarines, an Imperial Fist is part of his chapter for life.

 

I think the actual training is a joint operation, in the same sense that Dante commanded Calgar and the Ultramarines at Armageddon. The thousand marines, or whatever portion of the initial thousand gene-seed sets are implanted, have their own squad leaders and officers. They are responsible for executive decisions about personnel, heraldry, or procurement, but allow themselves to be commanded in the field by the experienced cadre officers as a joint operation. The new masters of the arsenal, et al, need close coaching by experienced trainers and are effectively apprentices, but are formally in charge. Naturally, services of terminators and techmarines have to come from the cadre, since none of the new chapter are initially qualified.

 

This is better, since it means that a parent chapter doesn't actually give up any of the training officers, so they can send a larger contingent. Training a new chapter probably takes over a hundred marines, and a chapter can't just pop them off like tree suckering. They send a company on an operation, and look it happens to be reinforced by the four hundred marines from a new chapter. It is also more like modern international training operations.

 

That said, there's no reason a marine who is interred during that joint operation wouldn't stick around, but he'd keep his colors and a good amount of other comrades: his old squad maybe. I feel like the thing to do is use it as a way to mix in a contrasting color scheme for a couple of units.

 

Also: I have remembered the difference between that and which.

[Hellios]

Wouldn't that just mean that the marines assigned to lead/train the new chapter couldn't have their gene seed harvested after death (Well it could be harvested and sent back to the parent chapter I guess.) and used by the new chapter.

[Octavulg]

Voi, you're drawing too great a conclusion from too little data. It being a new line doesn't mean it's not effectively identical to another line. Plus, what if the new chapter is founded using geneseed from the same chapter that provides the cadre?

 

The fact that geneseed can be mixed and that apothecaries from other chapters can use geneseed from other chapters (for example, the Iron Warriors using IF geneseed they captured, or the Red Corsairs using that of the Marines Errant) suggests its cross-compatibility may actually be higher than we think.

[AGPO]

I'd say it was very likely. A Space Marine chapter is an incredibly valuable military resource and creating a new one is a huge investment, which is why there are so few of them. The new chapter will have been created for a specific purpose, rather than just a whim. Regular Chapter Masters , even Captains have centuries of experience, so the roles are unlikely to be entrusted to a raw recruit of the new chapter. Then you consider the experience necessary for a master of the forge, head of the librarium or chief apothecary. These roles are essential but no one within the chapter is going to be fit to fulfil them for centuries.

 

We don't really know much about the types of marines assigned to training duties, but I daresay they are a mix of experienced officers with a blocked route to promotion within their own chapter, those too badly injured for the front line. I see it as being a lot like international sports. Imagine a sergeant, with over four hundred years of experience, who is third in line to the command of his own company. It is not that he isn't a great officer, simply that there are two other sergeants of even greater quality and experience above him. In such circumstances he is unlikely ever to command. However, a new chapter is being founded from his own chapter's geneseed, and he is offered the chance to become captain of its 4th Company. Not only does he lead the company in battle, he is tasked with identifying those marines within the new chapter who have leadership qualities and grooming them to take command. This could equally apply to a Captain of another chapter becoming Master of a new one. Look at the Ultramarines - with Agemann and Sicarius in line to succeed Calgar, no one else has a look in at the top job. The Captain of the Fifth might well be offered such a task if it is decided he is up to supreme command and that his First Sergeant is ready to make the step up to replace him.

[War Angel]

Unlike in the table game, marines don't die much. Recruitment is constant, so if a chapter becomes too big, they have to split. When a new chapter is formed this way, the space marines don't return

[Brother Tyler]

I think the examples given so far illustrate how we might see different situations; and how it's not safe to say with any (false) authority that one solution or another would not happen.

 

As the Imperial Armour Badab War books illustrate, new Chapters are (often?) provided with a training cadre from an experienced Chapter. We don't know that this happens in all cases, but it happens often enough that we might consider the training cadre method to be one of the regular methods.

 

We really don't know the size or composition of a training cadre, and there might not be a "fixed" organization for training cadres used in every single instance. It's entirely possible that different Chapters will provide training cadres of different size/composition. The estimate of 100 provided earlier sounds reasonable, but shouldn't be taken to be either authoritative (since it was a fan estimate derived from no official material) or regulated. In truth, we might see some training cadres that are (much) smaller than others; and some portion of the training cadre might actually be drawn from Chapter serfs and external agencies (e.g., the Adeptus Mechanicus might train Techmarines), reducing the number of actual Space Marines that make up the cadre.

 

If the training cadre has gene-seed that is compatible with that of the new Chapter, there might be times when some or all members of the training cadre remain with the new Chapter. The training cadre might then form the original core of officers and specialists that lead the new Chapter. And this might also be dependent upon other factors, with the strength of the parent Chapter being one of those that is foremost. If the parent Chapter is at or near full strength, it might be able to suffer the loss of some number of Space Marines to a new Chapter (and it should be remembered that being selected to sire a new Successor is generally a significant honor). An under-strength parent Chapter, meanwhile, might not be able to spare any members of the training cadre, or only a handful might stay with the new Chapter.

 

Something to consider is the length of time taken to train the new Chapter before declaring it fully capable to conduct operations. The longer this period of time, the smaller the number of theorized "transfers" would have to be. While it might not take long to train a sufficient number of recruits in the individual skills and basic squad level tasks, a key component of regular Space Marine training is higher level skills that include both individual skills as well as large scale battle tactics (controlling a company, organizing the logistics of an expedition, captaining a starship, etc.). While the training cadre will include members with expertise to fulfill all of these requirements, much of their expertise will be based on experience. A new Chapter will need to have not only the basic expertise, it will also a confidence born of experience in these more complex areas. This will require either a significantly longer training period and/or the theorized "transfers" from the parent Chapter. I wouldn't presume to define either the length of time required to impart full experience/confidence on the new Chapter or which training cadre experts might have to stay if a sufficient length of time isn't provided.

 

As far as loyalties go, different situations and personalities will lead to different results. It's easy to make an assumption based on one perceived combination while forgetting that this would actually be the result of multiple interwoven elements. There are definitely examples in the lore where the older Chapters exert some degree of authority of new Chapters (e.g., many Successors of the Ultramarines Legion look to the Ultramarines Chapter, and the efforts of the Unforgiven appear to be led by the Dark Angels Chapter). However, there are also examples where Successors don't necessarily look to the older Chapters (e.g., the Mortifactors, also one of the Primogenitors, still work with the Ultramarines while not submitting themselves). If part of the initial "training package" a new Chapter Master receives is the injunction that he, and he alone, leads his Chapter and he is a peer to all of the other Chapter Masters, he could easily forge his own path and not defer to his previous Chapter Master. Even if he does give the older Chapter some deference, this might not be institutionalized and, as the leadership eventually changes to leaders that were never part of the old Chapter it is quite likely that such deference would change. Part of this risk might also be mitigated if the Master of the parent Chapter picks the right man - the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes being martial meritocracies, I would guess that it's much more likely that the hand-picked new Chapter Master would have the right character to lead a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes on his own without bending to the will of his former master (while being more than willing to work with him). And part of this might also be mitigated if standard practice is to allow the new Chapter to set off on its own without interference from the parent Chapter, allowing the new Chapter to establish its own identity and sense of individuality early in its existence without interference from the parent Chapter. All of this is conjecture, of course.

 

Of course, if the training cadre's gene-seed isn't compatible with the new Chapter's, then a totally different sequence of events might take place. And this might be part of the complexity that allows for different methods to be utilized. In this instance, a much longer training period might be used so that the new Chapter is led completely by its own members, with all of the members of the training cadre returning to their parent Chapter; and a compatible gene-seed training cadre might allow for a shorter training period with some of its members (perhaps) remaining with the new Chapter to form its leadership core.

 

Ultimately, while the logic of some members of the training cadre staying with a new Chapter might make sense, GW has never told us that this does or does not happen. We can all speculate all we want, but until GW says definitively yes or no (or even maybe :D ), players have the freedom to do whatever makes sense to them.

[Brother Tyler]

Ah, you posted this while I was composing my previous.

 

Unlike in the table game, marines don't die much. Recruitment is constant, so if a chapter becomes too big, they have to split. When a new chapter is formed this way, the space marines don't return

Recruiting is constant, but extremely slow. Some Chapters only gain a handful of new recruits in each generation. Also, a Chapter that is at full strength can afford to slow its recruiting (without stopping it).

 

Lastly, new Chapters aren't normally created by splitting old Chapters. This is only known to have happened during the 2nd Founding, when the Legions were broken into the Chapters, and in the creation of the Sons of Medusa (when adherents of a schismatic belief were exiled from the Iron Hands and other Iron Hands Successors to form a new Chapter that was eventually recognized as such officially, over the objections of a number of Chapter Masters). Any new Chapter will either be totally or mostly composed of completely new members (the latter only if some members of the training cadre remain, which we don't know happens).

[voi shet magir]

to a raw recruit of the new chapter. Then you consider the experience necessary for a master of the forge, head of the librarium or chief apothecary. These roles are essential but no one within the chapter is going to be fit to fulfil them

If the chapter have three cruiser-size ships and four hundred implanted marines, they'll need over a dozen techmarines and multiple apothecaries. For a librarium with any kind of institutional continuity that doesn't develop bad practices, they also need about a dozen librarians, regardless of actually doing their jobs. Ultramarines and Blood Angels each have librarium personnel in the low thirties; techmarines have no numbers given, but over fifty seems like a high number given the mode of training.

 

What chapter is giving up that much of its specialist corps? No, the captains of the new chapter just don't take on much responsibility and act more like sergeants for decades. The trainer chapter puts a large force on extended operations with heavy reinforcement from the cooperating new chapter, the way the Emperor's Children tagged along with the Luna Wolves until they were up to doing things on their own. An established chapter can spare its officers to just do what they normally would but with some outside observers and apprentices. It can't just pop off seven apothecaries. One chapter or the other would face serious skills degradation. Regardless of having enough hands for the moment, they need solid professional bodies to keep skills alive.

 

 

I see it as being a lot like international sports.

 

Or, like international military training/observer missions. One country trains another's officers and sends forces to command joint operations. They don't just surrender their officers to adopt a new nationality and run the whole military.

 

A new chapter is being founded from a his own chapter's geneseed

Yeah this is not a thing. When the mechanicum found a chapter with Guilliman's gene-seed, they take an haemostaemen zygote from a chaplain of the Aurora Chapter and an ossmodula zygote from a Sons of Orar sergeant. Only chapter has Ultramarines' gene-seed; it's the Ultramarines. Even second founding chapters have isolated gene-lines that are distinct from the chapters' that inherited their parent legions' names. They don't share gene-seed, so it's impossible for a Celebrant or Son of Medusa to become a fully initiated brother of another chapter. The Imperium want to limit the potential for Lufgt Huron to absorb the Tiger Claws, and ultimately his crimes were failing to tithe gene-seed.

[War Angel]

But it can happen if a chapter is fortunate enough to suffer very few losses.

[ShadowHaunt]

If the chapter have three cruiser-size ships and four hundred implanted marines, they'll need over a dozen techmarines and multiple apothecaries. For a librarium with any kind of institutional continuity that doesn't develop bad practices, they also need about a dozen librarians, regardless of actually doing their jobs. Ultramarines and Blood Angels each have librarium personnel in the low thirties; techmarines have no numbers given, but over fifty seems like a high number given the mode of training.

 

You're making an amazing level of assumption, here. I don't think anyone is positing that the training cadre consists of a fully staff for any of the specialist offices of the new chapter. When a class of new marine recruits are trained - whether for a new chapter, or an existing one - they are observed, tested, and monitored by members of the specialist offices, all of whom have a duty not only to train the recruits, but to identify those recruits with the potential to serve in their respective offices. Techmarines look for recruits good with machines; Librarians test for psychic talent; Chaplains search for those with zeal, and the necessary charisma and empathy to inspire the men around them. Such recruits are given extra training, to prepare them for their role in the specialist office for which they have been selected.

 

A newly formed chapter, comprised entirely of recruits, except for the training cadre, must have a way to identify those with appropriate aptitudes for these offices. Thus, it is necessary that the cadre include at least one specialist from each office: Librarian, Chaplain, Apothecary, Techmarine. Strictly speaking, it need not include more than one of each, to meet the need, but it is likely that, for purposes of redundancy, the cadre provides a couple of additional members from each specialty. Out of 30 librarians (based on your numbers above), sparing 3, or even 5, to spawn a new chapter, is hardly going to break any chapter. The cadre probably includes the second or third ranked member of each office, in order to ensure a fully competent trainer, and one who is experienced enough to do the job without needing external support, plus a selection of less experienced members who may well be expected to learn as they train. But nobody expects a parent chapter to split off half of its Apothecary staff (or any other office) to found a new chapter. The remainder of each office will be trained from those identified by the training cadre for each office.

 

A new chapter is being founded from a his own chapter's geneseed

Yeah this is not a thing. When the mechanicum found a chapter with Guilliman's gene-seed, they take an haemostaemen zygote from a chaplain of the Aurora Chapter and an ossmodula zygote from a Sons of Orar sergeant. Only chapter has Ultramarines' gene-seed; it's the Ultramarines. Even second founding chapters have isolated gene-lines that are distinct from the chapters' that inherited their parent legions' names. They don't share gene-seed, so it's impossible for a Celebrant or Son of Medusa to become a fully initiated brother of another chapter. The Imperium want to limit the potential for Lufgt Huron to absorb the Tiger Claws, and ultimately his crimes were failing to tithe gene-seed.

 

Do you have a source for this? Everything I've read previously about geneseed says that mixing the geneseed is something that simply isn't done, because it leads to instability, mutations, and so on. The hint is put out there that mixing up geneseed, in an attempt to "fix" some of the degrading lines, was what caused the tragic ends of most of the Cursed Founding. It is rather difficult to reconcile this with your assertion that new chapters are routinely made by mixing source geneseed materials.

[Heru]

Actually we do have official precedents for "training cadres" becoming part of new Chapters. Both that come to mind right now come from the Forge World Badab War books (the guy behind them consulted with Mat Ward* and Adam Troke).

 

One is the Executioners, a 3rd Founding whose first Chapter Master was an Imperial Fist Captain.

 

The other is the Fire Angels:

Founded as a Chapter from 'whole cloth' which is to say without a specific named predecessor Chapter. Instead they were created from a gene-stock issue, their intial command and training structure composed of honoured warriors drawn from several Ultramarines successor Chapters. Their gene-seed is also on record as being sourced from highly stable Ultramarines stock...

 

* = We may not like Mat Ward's fluff, but he is second in command of Wh40k's fluff (under head-honcho Alan Merrit), and author to three marine codices.

 

@voi shet magir: I'd like to see official quotes for the stuff you are spouting, because I've never heard anything like:

When the mechanicum found a chapter with Guilliman's gene-seed, they take an haemostaemen zygote from a chaplain of the Aurora Chapter and an ossmodula zygote from a Sons of Orar sergeant.

 

If genestock was taken like that there wouldn't be "Gene-seed (Predecessor)" listings in the Badab War books.

 

Also I wouldn't try arguing anything like "but the Badab War books aren't canon" because you brought the Tiger Claws into this. :D

[Stercus]

Looks like I've inadvertently started a really interesting thread here. Enjoying all your opinions a great deal. My personal assumption is that veteran officers would remain with the new chapter, but not necessarily on a permanent basis.

[War Angel]

Another thing to remember is, they have alot more rank in the new chapter. If you're chapter master with the new guys, would you wanna go back to being a personal guard again?

[Stercus]

Another thing to remember is, they have alot more rank in the new chapter. If you're chapter master with the new guys, would you wanna go back to being a personal guard again?

This was pretty much my thoughts. I had it in my head that an old veteran who the centuries on campaign had battered pretty hard ended up out of combat operations training the recruits. When the news that a new chapter is being created comes in, he volunteers to lead the training cadre. While the training process is going on, he realises that his combat experience makes him once more a valuable frontline asset and he ends up taking an officer role in the new chapter at the end of the training period. Decades on, he takes a shell to the spine and becomes the first dreadnought of the new chapter. I think it makes for a pretty good story to add a little character to a souped-up ironclad dread i've built.