Musings on ravenwing bikers

[Polythemus]

I was just thinking as i was making notes from a recent batrep about the ravenwing and how everyone is kinda down on bikers except as a suicide squad. It seems that most of the time people dont feel that this is a good investment of points aside from combat squading them and sending them to be killed by infantry surrounding tanks or maybe escaping.

 

My new thinking is that they can be used to assault in the following manner. You'll need to get them within 18 inches of the enemy. First move them within 6inches of the enemy (preferably a troops type squad as bikers proabably shouldn't be used against heavy infantry) next rapid fire all your twin linked bolters into the enemy. With just 6 bikers this is 10 wounds statistically. It increases if you bring the attack bike. this means if the troops are anything like space marines you've probably just killed 4 of his ten man tactical squad. This should soften the enemy substantially and will make them take a Ld test. Since bikes are relentless according to 5thed rulebook, you can still assault, so give that squad a power weapon or especially a chaplain, and those enemy troopers should go down. I think that against similar targets you would be likely to win the battle of attrition, since bikes have greater toughness. It would seem that they would work at least as well as jumpackers, and possibly better since they can scout and turbo boost as well as having homing beacons.

The thing that makes this work is getting within 12in range to get that rapid fire. outside of 6in you can also assault with your termies instead if you cant reach with the bikes, but as always it seems that target prioritization is key.

This is all academic at this point and I don't know how well it works in practice. so if anyone can shed some light on this please let me know.

[shabbadoo]

I was just thinking as i was making notes from a recent batrep about the ravenwing and how everyone is kinda down on bikers except as a suicide squad. It seems that most of the time people dont feel that this is a good investment of points aside from combat squading them and sending them to be killed by infantry surrounding tanks or maybe escaping.

 

My new thinking is that they can be used to assault in the following manner. You'll need to get them within 18 inches of the enemy. First move them within 6inches of the enemy (preferably a troops type squad as bikers proabably shouldn't be used against heavy infantry) next rapid fire all your twin linked bolters into the enemy. With just 6 bikers this is 10 wounds statistically. It increases if you bring the attack bike. this means if the troops are anything like space marines you've probably just killed 4 of his ten man tactical squad. This should soften the enemy substantially and will make them take a Ld test. Since bikes are relentless according to 5thed rulebook, you can still assault, so give that squad a power weapon or especially a chaplain, and those enemy troopers should go down. I think that against similar targets you would be likely to win the battle of attrition, since bikes have greater toughness. It would seem that they would work at least as well as jumpackers, and possibly better since they can scout and turbo boost as well as having homing beacons.

The thing that makes this work is getting within 12in range to get that rapid fire. outside of 6in you can also assault with your termies instead if you cant reach with the bikes, but as always it seems that target prioritization is key.

This is all academic at this point and I don't know how well it works in practice. so if anyone can shed some light on this please let me know.

You have a lot of mistakes/assumptions in there, though here is the main bit:

 

My new thinking is that they can be used to assault in the following manner. You'll need to get them within 18 inches of the enemy. First move them within 6inches of the enemy (preferably a troops type squad as bikers probably shouldn't be used against heavy infantry) next rapid fire all your twin linked bolters into the enemy. With just 6 bikers this is 10 wounds statistically. It increases if you bring the attack bike.

Not quite. With 6 bikes rapid firing you get 12 shots. They hit on a 3+, with a re-roll, so that is 10-11 hits, not wounds. You haven't even rolled to wound yet, but, as per your example vs. Marines (Toughness 4), that would statistically be about 5 wounds. That will result in about 2 dead power-armored Marines (1 dead Terminator), not 4. Adding the Attack Bike will add one additional wound, on average, but that would be 6 wounds, and, statically, that is still just 2 dead Marines ( 1 Terminator). Not really stellar results there. Seeing as bikers have the same number of attacks as a Tactical Marine, 6 bikers assaulting 8 Tactical Marines is not such a great proposition. Now, make those Chaos Marines, who all have additional close combat weapons, and the prospect is not looking good at all, seeing as they will be throwing more attacks than the bikes. The bike's Toughness surely helps, but do marines really run away that easily? No, they don't, and a combat like this won't be doing enough casualties in one turn to likely see that happen. I have seen a lot of such Assaults, and what I usually see are the squad leaders with power fists, often both sides, slowly but surely grind each other down, as one side or the other only wins the combat round by one or two, if they don't tie. I have watched too many games where bike vs. non-bike Assaults have gone on turn after turn after turn. This just isn't going to be a quick, decisive fight. Currently there are only two decent close combat bike units in the game, those being Space Marine Command Squads on bikes and Nobz on Warbikes, as both can be loaded up with killer weapons, such that their combats can be quick and decisive. They are expensive though, and so suffer from "all-your-eggs-in-one-basket" syndrome.

 

Also, being at the outer range of Assaulting the enemy, 6", and killing any enemy models, may then leave the bikes outside of Assault range due to the opponent not being stupid and removing the models closest to the bikes, so, at extreme Assault range, any casualties caused by the bikes will likely preclude any Assault at all on their part. Which means they then become sitting ducks, able to shot/Assaulted by the enemy on their turn.

 

Lastly, I am not sure why you mention Terminators Assaulting. They can't Assault on the turn they show up via Deepstrike, so even if the bikes get within 12" of the enemy, and the Terminators Deepstrike in 6" closer than the bikes are to the enemy, the Terminators can only stand and fire, not Assault.

[Polythemus]

.........kaboom.

 

and my theory is completely blown to bits. well sir you are right on both counts. i have to say i did forget to put in wound rolls. and having played very few games ( pretty new to 40k) I have been trying to find a way to make use of the bikes I own, and thought i had a brain wave. I guess the only real utility is going to come as you say from having a command squad with apoth and chaplain. It would also seem that you might need to just take the whole RAS w/ speeder to make this squad viable. even then your not getting too much more punch (maybe 2-3 more wounds equating to one more dead). then of course your points cost has gone way up to 370pts.

 

Your second point is also well taken as it would be likely that the unit fired upon could remove units to negate ravenwing assault ability.

 

As for the additional terminator assault, i never did specifiy on what turn this all might take place or that the termies would have just been called down. It could merely be that they are in the area when the bikes approach to within 12". That thought was merely to suggest that the unit fired upon would need to be suppressed into cc by someone if the bikes could get there, otherwise they will be dead!

 

so in order for ravenwing to used as true assault I guess the only real utility is going to come as you say from having a command squad with apoth and chaplain. i am having a hard time finding a good way to employ these bikes when the opponent has no tanks (I play most games against tryanids). it is kinda sad when the use of a unit is so limited.

[Harleqvin]

I didn't think DA command squad could have bikes....

[Interrogator Stobz]

SM CS can, as mentioned :)

 

Ours still suck in CC, hopfully not for long...............

 

:D

stobz

[shabbadoo]

Bikes are just a tough thing to use as they are right now. They actually work better when there is lots of terrain on the board, such that they can get within 12" shooting range and shoot enemy units who then must roll Difficult Terrain rolls (which they may roll poorly on) to get close enough to Assault them and lock them up in close combat where they are the least effective. Then the bikes can gun-n'-run. Without the terrain though, they are just not very effective for the cost. The Toughness 5 seems great...until you realize that they are crappy Assault units, and that the Toughness 5 is easily counted by enemy special and heavy weapons, which are usually at the minimum Strength 5, let alone are AP 3 or less.

 

Space Marine Bikes should cost be a bit less their current 25 points per model(maybe 22 points each), and Ravenwing Bikes 25 points per model, at most. The current cost of roughly 33 points per bike is just ludicrous.

[march10k]

The mathhammer is wrong, but the theory is sound. It's expensive, but I've never regretted taking full bikes with dual melta, fist, MMAB, and interrogator on bike.

 

Today, I took those for the first time in a while (been playing mech guard and mech deathwing in competitive play) because I was "only" playing a friendly and wanted to bust out the power armor. It was 1500 versus SW in DoW KP.

 

I deployed the chappy opposite my two tactical squads and outflanked the RAS. They came in on turn three, and the chappy joined up. On turn four, they ate what passes for a tactical squad in the SW book. On turn 5, the chappy left the unit to rescue my de-fisted vennie who was struggling to finish off a wolf priest and the last man (fist) in a jump pack squad (I don't know SW units' names) while the squadron nuked a pair of vennies themselves (one was already immobilized by my 4xLas devs-hey, it was a friendly, points efficiency be damned!). Five kill points (of the six I earned!) at the loss of one bike. Sure, his wolf lord or his lone wolf would have made mincemeat of the bikes, including the chappy. Um. They're on bikes. They get to pick their fights. I think they're awesome for being able to quickly get where they're needed and deliver not just melta lovin, but also some rerolling fist+crozius action. Not to mention the 18" charge threat off the board edge if they outflank (which is a no-brainer if you're not using their telehomers).

[Harleqvin]

SM CS can, as mentioned ;)

 

Ours still suck in CC, hopfully not for long...............

 

:D

stobz

lqtm. I some how got the two previous posts mixed and had in my head a command squad for DA as RW was mentioned...... I blame this being the DA page and thinking in only of terms of DA :D :)

[Raven Angel]

march10k is right bikes can generally pick their assults unless they get run down by other bikes. I tend to use them to hold up units moving to hold ground or tring to flank. Tac squads moving toword objectives or Fire support squads are prime targets. Bikes can also be decent tank hunters. Fists, metaguns Plasma pistols, and meta bombs and krack grenads can eat tanks and you have to mobility to get to the weak armor.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry men but I'm seeing an about 450 point 'unit' killing an about 190 point unit, that doesn't tell me our bikes are good. It does tell me March is a decent player and used them well.

 

BA and other jumpers are far better at picking fights than any bike unit, they move as far as bikes but get to move in a direct line instead of around terrain and don't have to roll DT tests when they assault into terrain. If the bikes turbo boost they are useless that turn (an MSU shooting unit not shooting is a failure in their role), so to me TB-ing is a very small advantage which is often negated by the range of our weapons and the size of a standard board.

To stay alive bikes need to stay outside the 12-18" range but to help they need to be inside it, big dilema and challenge for the player.

 

Full agreement they can be decent tank hunters, unfortunately a good op player can shield his tanks with meat and own the midfield 24" radius bubble for the win. Bike armies are very easy to negate on a 4x6' table.

Bike units can help other non bike units in their armies and I'm all for mixed forces so please don't take the above the wrong way, it is just that bikes don't stand up on their own point for point.

 

They are as Shabbz so succinctly put, ludicrously overpriced. But I hope the next dex will give us unit efficiency as well as a few new 'stars'.

 

:lol:

stobz

[shabbadoo]

Sorry men but I'm seeing an about 450 point 'unit' killing an about 190 point unit, that doesn't tell me our bikes are good. It does tell me March is a decent player and used them well.

That's it in a nutshell. Put that 450 point unit up against 20 Chaos Marines with some power fists and special weapons and we'll see who beats the snot out of whom. Currently, the only way for a Ravenwing Bike Squadron to really be viable against a variety of targets is to have them run with a Chaplain crutch, which just uses up more points, cuts down on the number of bikes in the army, and really adds a unit counterproductive to the Ravenwing's capabilities as a whole. As they are configured, the Ravenwing are just not designed for close combat at all, and there is no viable option for them to be considering the cost. You are better off not having a Chaplain at all and instead taking another Land Speeder Typhoon w/MM and putting the rest of the points towards even more bikes. They'll dish out more damage than a Chaplain can hope to anyways, even considering any extra attacks he might give to a lackluster Ravenwing Bike Squad that he joins.

 

Which is, of course, sad. We should want to be able to field such things, and not only because they are cool but because they are also viable.

 

As it is, shooting is the thing for a pure Ravenwing force. MM Attack Bikes tank hunt, as do Typhoon/MM speeders and squads set up with dual meltaguns and power fists. The other configurations are best suited to taking on infantry, but, due to their high cost they will be outgunned by equivalent point infantry and swamped by them in close combat. I know. I've ripped a White Scars force a new one, and that army actually has a bike squad that can fight worth a damn in close combat (the Command Squad made up of 2 Attack Veterans with two power weapons, a power fist, two plasma guns, a standard bearer, an apothecary, the Khan, and, yes, that was all backed up by a Chaplain too), and my boyz trashed that unit in one turn. The rest of the game was bikes trying (and failing) not to get killed. I think three models survived of the 2,000 point White Scars force, and all were locked up in close combat (i.e. doomed) when the game ended. If it had been a Ravenwing army, the game would have been over one or two turns earlier due to the Ravenwing having around 1/3 less models because of their high points cost. Seriously, it really is that bad for them. All bike armies sure do look cool, but I do wish they played better.

 

Even still, I think I will be trying out some things with some Ravenwing forces next weekend in a 4 round tournament, just for the fun of it. That is really all the reason we have to use them at the moment, and it is surely a good reason. We'll see if I can manage to do something with them against opponents who know how bad they suck, and, if I do, I get to mock them mercilessly. :D

[LidlessPraetor]

I think it's pretty sad that no one has mentioned the attack bikes as a fast moving scoring unit. For 190pts you can get a 3 man bike squad w/ 2 melta guns with a tag-along attack bike. The bikes make great outflanking tank hunters (which has been mentioned) but the attack bike is a legitimate threat to contest/score objectives in the late turns of the game. There are times when you have to think like an Eldar player and use the terrain to try and hide your bike until you're ready to boost out onto an objective.

 

The only time I've ever had scoring units on all 5 objectives in a Seize Ground mission was with an attack bike owning one of the ones in my backfield. Pricey as a unit? totally. But if you know how to pick your spots (and not be balls to the wall) they can be a game changer.

 

p.s. Also, I just re-checked the FAQ and it appears that they took out the sentence about the attack bike always being scoring, did they change that on me does anyone know?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yes, attack bikes are no longer scoring as per FAQ.

[Polythemus]

I think that opening the debate to include that they (bikes) can be scoring units may shift the opinion slightly. Taking into consideration that you must use sammael (since as lidless just reminded us they are not scoring units on their own) bikes essentially become highly mobile tactical squads. But are they as durable? To me they probably aren't. Additionally when taking into account that sammy's price plus the price of transforming a bike squad to contain apoth and standard with his upgrades means you may have a bike squad with three attacks on the charge. I dont know if this is useful or not. You are essentially paying for a land raider with sammy plus upgrading a squad, so that needs to be taken into account.

 

When you start talking about scoring you are also getting into territory of how the army is getting built. From where i sit terminators are the mainstay of the my army. So that means taking belial and at least 3 squads of termies with cml (i've only got three afterall) about 900pts. If the goal is also to have bikes that can assault you gotta take sammy, and to make him worth it, at least two squads of bikes. So with upgrades 685 pts. This means very few models on the board. we havent taken any special weaps or attack bikes and we are past 1500 pts so its tough. I only mention all these points values because for me personally incorporating ravenwing into my existing army structure is where id like to see value and since i magine most ppl here use deathwing style forces, maybe they'd like to see that ability as well. it really seems that taking sammael is only an option if your playing games at 1500pts or more if you hope to get value out of him, and having scoring bikes. In objective games they will be pretty good, in anhilation games i dont think so. just not enough killing power as shabbadoo pointed out to me quite eloquently.

 

If i had a wish list of how id like to see the rules change to accomodate taking bikes at their current cost it would be getting some kind of initative bonus if you charge with them. Or give them the hit and run special rule. This might make them more valuable and would be a simple change.

[Raven Angel]

Hit and run would be nice. Also do you guys think that bikes could justifiy having 2 wounds?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Two wounds no.. but they should have some game mechanic similar to vehicles. like moving 12"+ you would only hit a bike on a 6 in CC.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, attack bikes are no longer scoring as per FAQ.

You are wrong.

"Page 27 – Ravenwing Combat Squads, second paragraph

Change to “Much like Combat squads, the squadron’s

Attack Bike and Land Speeder are purchased together

with the squadron and then deployed at the same time

as the squadron’s bikes, but from then on, they always

operate as completely independent units of one model.”

 

There is nothing about the Attack Bike not being a Scoring unit there, just that the Attack Bike is always an independent unit of one model. The Scoring part, which used to apply to everything, is indeed removed, but the opposite is not now then true due to a lack of mention. Rules tell us exceptions to the norm by specifically mentioning them. As no exceptions are now mentioned, we go by the Core Rules requirements for what is considered to be Scoring. Thus, a full Ravenwing Attack Squadron taken as a Troops choice counts it Bikes as Scoring, its Attack Bike as Scoring, but not its Land Speeder, as the latter is vehicle. That is it. They fixed the one problem, Scoring Land Speeders, not took away Scoring from everything with that revision.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I was referring only to attack bikes scoring status as FA choices. Perhaps I should have been more clear since scoring status as Troops never was in dispute... just scoring status as FA choices where we DA players clung to to get an extra bonus. My bad for not being totally clear thus leading to misunderstandings.

[Polythemus]

Shabbadoo how do you figure that landspeeders are not scoring? If the conditions are such that you take sammael, then his rule states that ravenwing attack squadrons count as scoring (codex page 79), ergo a landspeeder that is counted among that cadre will be scoring as well. A typhoon lanspeeder would not be scoring but any member of a ravenwing assault squadron would since the whole squadron gets counted as troops.

[ValourousHeart]

BRB states that to be scoring you have to be a troop choice and not be a swarm or a vehicle or have some other restriction that prevents scoring.

 

So tactical squads score, they are a troop choice.

Bikes / attack bike score with Sammie because they count as troops.

BA DC dreads and rhinos do not score because they are vehicle.

SW... Cannus make fen wolves count as troops, but fen wolves have a special rule that says they can't claim objectives... So those don't score.

 

All those follow the rules from the BRB.

 

The exceptions were stern guard and RW speeders (prior to the current FAQ).

Stern guard are elites... And Pedro doesn't change that... So they only are scoring because of Pedro's rule.

Prior to the latest FAQ our codex said our speeders were scoring... Which superseded the BRB, in the same way that Pedro does.

 

Now however we no longer have that exception so our speeders follow the DC Dread / rhino example above.

 

Hope that clears that up.

[shabbadoo]

Valorousheart is correct.

 

Shabbadoo how do you figure that landspeeders are not scoring? If the conditions are such that you take sammael, then his rule states that ravenwing attack squadrons count as scoring (codex page 79), ergo a landspeeder that is counted among that cadre will be scoring as well. A typhoon landspeeder would not be scoring but any member of a ravenwing assault squadron would since the whole squadron gets counted as troops.

 

The above quote is off a bit. P. 79 merely states that

 

"...Ravenwing Attack Squadrons may be treated as a Troops choice as well as a Fast Attack choice."

 

There is no mention of Scoring in Sammael's rules at all. So, we go to the Ravenwing Combat Squads rule on p. 27. Those rules do state that Land Speeders are Scoring in the second paragraph, but that whole second paragraph was replaced in the FAQ, removing the mention of Scoring altogether. The net result of that is that we must use the normal criteria in the Core Rulebook for figuring out what is Scoring and what isn't. As per the Core Rulebook (p. 90), even if a vehicle is a Troops unit, it is not a Scoring unit. The Land Speeder is a vehicle and so is not a Scoring unit.

 

Ravenwing Land Speeders can still contest objectives though, just as any unit can.

[Master Avoghai]

And added to that, this clarification prevents our AB to be scoring when taken as FA choice... ;)

 

As for th OT, I think that RW AS should be used as mobile tank hunters : 3bikes with 2 meltas + AB with MM. That way you can keep them out of range from any assault unit. Adding 3 bikes and a LS is useless here : the tornado is waaaay to expensive, particulary if you compare with the typhoon. No need to upgrade the sgt either, he s'just the 1st casualty to remove.

 

IMO one or 2 of those squadrons taken as troops with sammael are a strong and mobile support unit. Particulary if you use 2 tactical squads in rhino in the same time. In a 1750pts army, it still leaves a room for a termi squad in LR or even 2 termi squads + 2 typhoons.

The bikes can be a threat for any tanks but difficult to target because of their mobility and the fac they are small indépendant units. You can also use their teleport homer for the termis and they can score. Often, your opponent will be more afraid of the termis and the rhinos than those small units and will often forget they can score.

 

Not a all-time winning strategy but viable IMHO

[Tanhausen]

Another exception to the vehicle restriction are Grey Knights.

 

With an HQ (don't know the name in English), you can make 1d3 units scoring. Including Dreanoughts...and Dreadknights IIRC.

 

Hopefully, in 2 months we'll have a new codex...and we can rule the world for 3 months until 6th shows up.

[Polythemus]

ok let me see if i understand this.

 

Ravenwing is:

its own company, comprised of Ravenwing attack squadrons and support squadrons of typhoons

RAS may include bikes, attack bikes and Talon pattern landspeeders

Sammael changes their RAS conditions to operate as troops as well as fast attack, except

attack bike cant score (according to avoghai, but can score according to valorous) (not really clear as to why since attack bike is a bike, not a vehicle, so should be scoring)

landspeeder cant score since its a vehicle

 

general opinion

bikes cant really be used to assault unless they take a banner and an apoth. and have sammael riding with them

they're best used as a mobile tactical squad or as tank hunters

they are way over priced especially the talon speeder

when deployed as a combat squad they all have to come from the same table edge? (this is from some research in another earlier thread.)

 

Is this all pretty much right? I feel a bit foolish at having so many misconceptions, but I am new to all this so better to take something positive out of this confusion than remain ingnorant.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Attack bikes score when taken as part of RAS Troops (unlocked by sammael) , not scoring is RAS is Fast Attack.