Musings on ravenwing bikers

[BigGumbo]

Sammael changes their RAS conditions to operate as troops as well as fast attack, except

attack bike cant score (according to avoghai, but can score according to valorous) (not really clear as to why since attack bike is a bike, not a vehicle, so should be scoring)

landspeeder cant score since its a vehicle

 

Sammael allowa RAS to be selected as a Troops choice as well as a FA choice, just like Belial allows DW squads to be Troops as well as Elites. If you've got units which can be either, you would need to specify which slot each unit occupies unless it's obvious. I.e. it's obvious if you've got four RAS or five DW squads and no other Troops that they're all Troops; it's not obvious which RASs or DWs are Troops if you've got more than six units which could be Troops.

 

Hence:

 

RAS bikes (including ABs) are scoring when taken as a Troops choice (unlocked by Sammael);

 

RAS land speeder Tornado never scores as it's a vehicle, as you correctly point out (and negates Outflanking for the bikes in its squadron);

 

RAS taken as FA choice is all non-scoring (with or without Sammael).

 

Admittedly, if you've got Sammael you'd need to have 7 or more RA Squadrons in your army for any of them to be non-scoring but I suppose you might have thrown in some Greenwing Tac Squads which would occupy Troops slots. Maybe.

 

when deployed as a combat squad they all have to come from the same table edge? (this is from some research in another earlier thread.)

 

Deployment: my understanding was that they all have to be deployed at the same time (i.e. the same reserves roll) and in the same way (i.e. outflank or not outflank) but that they can have different points of entry. Thinking about it, this should mean different points on the same table edge, as the table edge is determined by the reserves/outflank roll, but I would have thought there could be sensible arguments for making multiple outflank rolls for each independent combat squad/AB (happy to be shot down in flames on this one, as I can't remember offhand the outcome of the earlier discussion) having determined the turn on which the whole unit comes in from reserves. Deep Striking units which have been combat squadded are explictly permitted by the v1.2 FAQ to arrive at different locations, as are Infiltrators, so it wouldn't seem totally unreasonable for Outflanking combat squads to be allowed to come on from different table edges.

[march10k]

BA and other jumpers are far better at picking fights than any bike unit, they move as far as bikes but get to move in a direct line instead of around terrain and don't have to roll DT tests when they assault into terrain.

 

They don't move as fast. Even without turbo-boosting, bikes are faster. The only way they're even equal is in terms of charge threat range. And really? DT tests? With skilled rider rerolls? My RWAS moves in straight lines.

 

If the bikes turbo boost they are useless that turn (an MSU shooting unit not shooting is a failure in their role), so to me TB-ing is a very small advantage which is often negated by the range of our weapons and the size of a standard board.

 

The turn that they spend turbo-boosting is somehow a waste of time, but the alternative of spending two turns to move the same distance isn't? What's better, a bike turbo-boosting with an invulnerable save for one turn to get into position, or a jumper taking two turns to do it sans invul?

 

To stay alive bikes need to stay outside the 12-18" range but to help they need to be inside it, big dilema and challenge for the player.

 

Too general. If you say "stay outside of charge range of units that are superior to them in melee," then I agree with you, but the way you state it as an absolute truth suggests that every unit in the game would clean their clocks in melee, and in fact, such units are in the minority.

 

 

They are as Shabbz so succinctly put, ludicrously overpriced.

 

Again, disagree. Expensive, yes, they cost roughly as much as terminators... Instead of a powerfist and TDA, they get T5 (except for the purpose of surviving a krak missile), telehomers, and SPEEEEEEEEEEED! Being able to move 24" to contest an OBJ at the last minute is expensive. Being able to redeploy clear across the board in two turns is expensive. Being able to charge 18" off a board edge is expensive. Points spent on things other than guns and armor are not wasted.

[march10k]

Put that 450 point unit up against (insert unit here)

 

...is a game that either side of an argument can play all day! Let 250 points worth of power-weapon-pure death company charge a squad of thundernators, and see how that turns out. Does that mean you shouldn't field thundernators? Of course not! And my example is a better one, since those death company have a better chance of getting a charge off than the 20 chaos marines have of catching the eight bikers!

 

As it is, shooting is the thing for a pure Ravenwing force.

 

I'm not talking about a pure ravenwing force, I'm talking about a single RAS in support of a greenwing or deathwing army, which is completely different!

[Interrogator Stobz]

As the discussion is vaguely about the value of our bikers in CC, using math-hammer we lose against basic tacticals equivalent point for point. Put us against more CC oriented units and we get owned, put us against meatsacks and some shooty units we do well.

 

The mobility of the bikes vs jumpers is terrain dependant, we use plenty of terrain here so jumpers are far better (not to mention multi level terrain). Jumpers can either come in normally or DS to anywhere on the board and then they don't need the extra movement from TB.

FYI, they move the same as far as I can tell; 12"+6" = 12"+6" in my book (base size does add a little to the bikes granted).

My RAS don't get skilled rider, how do yours? DT is very important to small expensive units like bikers.

Point for point (except ours) most jumper units own our RAS in CC. And getting a 3++ from a 24" TB is pointless unless it is used to run away to the other side of the table, if you get assaulted you don't get it.

 

A Tac Sqd with a decent ranged weapon pays 35ish points for better protection and similar movement for 10 dudes (excluding TB, but they get protection all the time) they don't need to move 24, just to get to centre board to own a 24" bubble and to deny bikes their TB mobility advantage by trapping them in a corner(so it takes 2-3 rounds, meh they are already on the objectives etc.).

 

I stopped playing pure RW armies as a result, I do totally agree with you on the value of adding one unit to a mixed GW/DW army or otherwise pureish DW force. I think you are using them about as well as they can be used.

 

I like our bikes, they look cool and have situational uses but they simply are overpriced esp. if used in CC.

[Cactus]

BA and other jumpers are far better at picking fights than any bike unit, they move as far as bikes but get to move in a direct line instead of around terrain and don't have to roll DT tests when they assault into terrain.

 

They don't move as fast. Even without turbo-boosting, bikes are faster. The only way they're even equal is in terms of charge threat range. And really? DT tests? With skilled rider rerolls? My RWAS moves in straight lines.

^_^ I don't follow this. Bikes and jump infantry can each move 12" and assault 6" so how are bikes faster without turbo-boosting? Where does the skilled rider USR come from? The Ravenwing don't have it (I think they should, but that's irrelevant).

 

If the bikes turbo boost they are useless that turn (an MSU shooting unit not shooting is a failure in their role), so to me TB-ing is a very small advantage which is often negated by the range of our weapons and the size of a standard board.

 

The turn that they spend turbo-boosting is somehow a waste of time, but the alternative of spending two turns to move the same distance isn't? What's better, a bike turbo-boosting with an invulnerable save for one turn to get into position, or a jumper taking two turns to do it sans invul?

A squad that's turbo-boosting isn't shooting, which I think was Stobz's point. I agree that there'll be times when it's better to turbo-boost to get into a good position than it is to shoot.

 

On the outflanking issue, my viewpoint is here. Make one reserves roll for the squadron, determine one table edge for the whole unit to arrive from, deploy models from reserves as normal (6-man squads can come in as combat squads if desired).

[shabbadoo]

They are as Shabbz so succinctly put, ludicrously overpriced.

 

Again, disagree. Expensive, yes, they cost roughly as much as terminators... Instead of a powerfist and TDA, they get T5 (except for the purpose of surviving a krak missile), telehomers, and SPEEEEEEEEEEED! Being able to move 24" to contest an OBJ at the last minute is expensive. Being able to redeploy clear across the board in two turns is expensive. Being able to charge 18" off a board edge is expensive.

The bikes in an army including The Khan can do all of that, for only 25 points per bike (and, unlike Sammael, The Khan can actually join his command squad, gain the benefits of the standard and apothecary, and help them kill stuff even better). The Ravenwing having to pay nearly 50% more per bike for being able to do about the same stuff is rather a big deal, as their force will have way fewer bikes in it, and the ability to make a pre-game Scout move with what happens to have been deployed doesn’t really make up the points difference.

 

As it is, shooting is the thing for a pure Ravenwing force.

 

I'm not talking about a pure ravenwing force, I'm talking about a single RAS in support of a greenwing or deathwing army, which is completely different!

I wasn't addressing you specifically. I was addressing the thread in general on weaknesses of the Ravenwing. The OP didn’t really bring up mixed forces so I didn’t really touch on it. A single RAS unit does make for a decent support group in a mixed force, but it is still way overpriced for what it can do. For example:

 

C: DA- RAS unit (6 bikes: sergeant w/powerfist, two meltaguns; multi-melta attack bike; Land Speeder Tornado). 415 pts.

 

C: SM- SM Bike unit (8 bikes: sergeant w/powerfist, two meltaguns; multi-melta attack bike; extra Fast Attack Land Speeder Tornado support). 360 pts.

 

55 points less, and two extra bikes for the vanillas. Overall that’s a 105 point differential, if the SM drop two bikes so as to have the same number of models as the Ravenwing have. That’ a pretty sizeable chunk of extra points to pay for what is a just a support unit. Ravenwing just aren’t that “bad to the bone’ to justify such a huge points differential. But we do it anyways! :P

 

While it doesn’t address your point of a single RAS as a support unit, for the sake of discussion, let’s look at how this plays out in a bike/speeder-themed list.

 

In 1,500 points, the Ravenwing can include 3-RAS Troops units, so 18 bikes + three attack bikes + three speeders, and Sammael. One of the bike units has a RW standard and an apothecary. Fully Combat Squaded there are 9 Scoring units; 25 models; 13 Kill Points.

 

In 1,500 points, White Scars can include 24 bikes + 3 attack bikes, 3 speeders , a real Command Squad of 5 butt-kickers on bikes, and The Khan on his special bike. Fully Combat Squaded there are 6 (larger) Scoring units; 36 models; 11 Kill Points.

 

That’s 25 Ravenwing vs. 36 White Scars- a 44% model differential among models with very comparable capabilities, meaning the Ravenwing are neither better off in at range or in close combat because they are outclassed in both areas. That’s some real grim darkness in the far future for the Ravenwing there! :P

 

The Ravenwing are a poorly configured (i.e. pigeon-holed) and overly costly unit in my opinion, and need some serious adjustments. Yes, we know the RW and DW are known to work together, but they don’t work together always. The teleport homers in particular should be optional equipment. That alone would be a big step in the right direction for making them more viable support units for the entirety of the Chapter, which supposedly is their job, and not solely dependent on Deathwing being present for their full potential to even be accessible.

 

general opinion

bikes cant really be used to assault unless they take a banner and an apoth. and have sammael riding with them

they're best used as a mobile tactical squad or as tank hunters

they are way over priced especially the talon speeder

when deployed as a combat squad they all have to come from the same table edge? (this is from some research in another earlier thread.)

 

Is this all pretty much right? I feel a bit foolish at having so many misconceptions, but I am new to all this so better to take something positive out of this confusion than remain ignorant.

While the RW standard and apothecary certainly do help, they merely upgrade the unit to “respectable” close combat capability. They still aren’t exceptionally good due to the lack of options to take more than a single upgraded close combat weapon, and that their points cost put them on par cost-wise with other units that are better due to having better close combat weapon options. It’s the best the Ravenwing have got though, at least so far as close combat is concerned.

 

Next, see the highlighted red text. If you mean Sammael on his jetbike being joined to a unit to make it stronger, he can’t do that because he doesn’t have the Independent Character rule. He is effectively a unit of one model which cannot join other units. You can only join another type of HQ (Librarian, Chaplain, Interrogator-Chaplain) to an RAS unit.

 

Yet another thing that sort of sucks about the Ravenwing. We have a saying for when people target Sammael- turkey shoot. :P I am not saying that it is super easy to kill him, but when any unit can pick out a special character like this and target them for death, that special character verges on being “special” rather than special. He often gets killed by basic weapons fire. Toughness 5 and a 3+ /4++ save will do that.

 

But, don’t let any of this discourage you from playing Ravenwing units. Most of us can talk trash about the Ravenwing without much effort, but, when it comes down to it, bikes and speeders are just fun to play with, and so many of us still do play with Ravenwing, including myself. It’s just the way we Dark Angels roll. ;)

[Darkangeldentist]

Ravenwing are very, very support dependent. Whether using them in a support role or using other units to support them I have always found them to be a very limited option when trying to use them as a self-sufficient unit. They are a brittle unit and that is for me their biggest stumbling block.

 

I tend to think of units rather tha points when I consider piece exchanges and so long as I am removing valuable enemy choices I am not so bothered about losing bikers. I think it's important to say this now as many arguments about bikes get bogged down by countering viewpoints highlighting their cost compared to what they can feasibly achieve hypothetically. The other valuable point to make is about the suicide tactic, I have been known to callously sacrifice my Ravenwing for the purposes of keeping other units alive or to set them up for a counter-charge.

 

Tactically Ravenwing can easily make their presence felt meaningfully by equipping them will melta weapons and going tank hunting, they are pretty good at this and the threat can quite heavily dictate how opponents deploy their tanks and units. This is in itself useful as knowing what your opponent is likely to do allows you to plan ahead how to counter that. Leaving meatshields to prevent tanks getting shot/assaulted means you need to bring something to shoot the meatshield. It's also worth remembering that is the tank hasn't moved and the foe only has a 5+ save a unit of bikes can sometimes move up within assault range of the tank, shoot the unit with rapid-firing bolters and then multiple assault the survivors and tank. (Trying to get the melta bomb sergeant into combat with the tank.) It's not an easy thing to do as it's very dependent on a quite limited situation but it's the kind of tactic that can reap good dividends.

 

Ravenwing provide a very good choice for giving opponents difficult choices about how to direct fire or assaults. Whilst bikes are brittle units they can take a surprising amount of punishment if you're lucky and particularly if the opponent is assuming the bikes the go down easily. Essentially it's about target saturation, against armies with lots of units (guard, eldar, dark eldar etc...) the bikes can often tie up some of their units in protracted assaults and often are going to attract more than a bit of attention to neutralise their threat. Against armies with fewer units the bikes pose less of a threat to the units but their ability to harass is no less useful and they can occupy space to limit enemy movement or charges.

 

Against a marine opponent a full squad of bikes won't be able to take down any infantry target reliably by themselves but it can certainly swing a combat or if supported by other ranged units finish off a mauled one. A couple of meltaguns and their bolters will kill about 2-3 marines fairly reliably and if you can direct enough firepower from other parts of the army to even up the numbers then a bike squad can finish off the opposing unit in combat. (6 bikes charging with a power sword sergeant will kill 2-3 marines most of the time and leaving 1-2 survivors is almost preferrable since if they hold the opponent will have to send something else to charge into combat to kill the bikes. If they brought down a unit of Deathwing using Deathwing assault then you can created a very strong attack on a flank that some opponents may seriously struggle to counter.

 

Although it may seem a bit of waste of the bikes I have found the following tactic can work very well and even protect the bikes in some respects. If you do play Deathwing in close support using deep strike then the bikes can form up in front of the Deathwing. Physically creating a barrier to prevent the opponent from getting units close enough to assault the terminators. This doesn't necessarily mean the bikes will die next turn as if the opponent needs the charge to provide the advantage necessary to deal with the terminators they may not commit to assaulting the bikes and it often takes quite dedicated firepower to remove Ravenwing which the opponent will also want to direct at the terminators. (Who will also have a cover save from the bikes whilst they live.) A turbo-boosting bike squad can be very good in this role although it requires forward planning. In general though I find that sending Ravenwing into combat ahead of a Deathwing squad works out very well. It requires a bit of forethought since there are two useful tactics that can yield good rewards this way. The first is to use the presence of the Deathwing to put opponents off sending in counter-attacking units against the bikes since they will in turn get counter-charged by the Deathwing. This is particularly useful against a lot of marine type armies where the Ravenwing can be expected to finish off a weakened unit but only over multiple rounds of combat. The second option is to commit the bikes in a more sacrificial manner to ensure the terminators will get the charge. This is very risky since the fragile nature of bikes means trying to tie up a unit for something else to finish off can backfire if you are unlucky with armour saves but sometimes the risk is worth it. I find that it can work very well against Orks who need the charge to bring their full threat to bear and bikes charging them can tie them up surprisingly well for a round so a proper charge can be organised from a more suitable unit.

 

Whilst Ravenwing are expensive, brittle and difficult to use effectively they are singularly useful for providing either first turn threats or late game reserves to support the rest of the army. The key is to remember that they need to either support other units or be supported by them.

[Polythemus]

Shabbadoo, my hat is off to you. once i finish this semester, time will definitely be spent rereading finer codex rules cause you have thoroughly shamed me in this regard. I had no idea that sammael wasnt an independent character, entertaining the thought that an hq company master (or the da/ravenwing equivalent) isnt independent borders on ludicrous and something that really needs to be addressed in the future. So again thanks for pointing that out.

 

Da dentist, that seems like a good trick and one i will consider using. It does seem that you would have to be right on top of the enemy for it to work and would probably have to have a full six bikes to take enough punishment but i like the "bird bait" concept. Just to tie in another concept, the leaked version of the "new" rules has a mention about charging units that are already tied up. The proposed change would be that charging a tied up unit would allow the charger to strike at initiative 10. This kind of change could potentially really make a move like this even more effective in addition to increasing the effectiveness of using bikes or other fast units to cleanup messy assaults.

[march10k]

As the discussion is vaguely about the value of our bikers in CC, using math-hammer we lose against basic tacticals equivalent point for point.

 

 

Invalid comparison. Mathhammerning them on a per-point-spent basis is completely irrelevant. You have to compare units that actually exist on the tabletop, regardless of points differential. A ~400 point RAS+chappy unit won't ever run into 400 points worth of a tactical squad, you simply can't make them that expensive if you try... If you want to make a comparison, compare the RAS to one reasonable tactical squad, then the RAS survivors, if there are any, to another fresh tactical squad. Of course seven bikes can't tackle 20 tactical marines simultaneously. But is that really the test of their value? Besides that, if they had the option to charge into a squad of 20 marines, do you really think they actually would? Of course not. Just because it's an equal points comparison does not mean it's a realistic one!

 

DS to anywhere on the board and then they don't need the extra movement from TB.

 

Just as logically flawed as saying that termies are fast because they can deepstrike. After they arrive, their ability to re-deploy is limited by how fast they are. And bikes can go farther faster.

 

A squad that's turbo-boosting isn't shooting, which I think was Stobz's point.

 

And my counter-point was that if my bikes need to move 24" to get into shooting position, those jumpers aren't shooting either, because their pistols are out of range...rendering the "turbo-boosting to get into position means you aren't shooting" argument ridiculous. For that matter, if the bikes don't turbo-boost, they can move 12" and shoot 24", versus moving 12" and shooting 12".

 

Where does the skilled rider USR come from? The Ravenwing don't have it

You know, I could have sworn that skilled rider replaced the jink save... Maybe we'll get it back in a month or so...

 

Anyway, my own anecdotal evidence shows that 6 ravenwing bikes with dual melta and fist, supported by an interrogator, will rip through a tactical squad without pausing to catch their breath. The fact that they cost twice as much as the tactical squad is 110% irrelevant. The fact that they destroy that unit without losing more than 1-2 bikes, meaning that they're still combat-effective afterwards, is what matters. They can certainly take out a second tactical squad, but after that, they'll have just 1-3 models left...and had better go into VP-denial mode in a KP game, or hide until it's time to contest an objective at game's end in an OBJ game. What the dentist said about bringing them in to tip the scales in an ongoing melee is probably the best use for them, though, and is feasible even without a chappy. That and outflanking three melta weapons with reach to most of the board for the regular meltas and the entire board for the multi.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You are right in your world, I am right in mine.

Sweet to disagree, my friends will beat a chappy/RAS/ABMM 'force' with two tacticals with heavy and special weapons in rhinos most days, because as you say on the tabletop is where it matters. Please understand that example is stated in isolation, RAS are an ok support unit. I'd like to see them costed efficiently enough to play them viably as a themed army again.

 

The point disparity effects the rest of the army, and that is where the true difference lies.

 

:tu:

stobz

 

Edit: To help be less confrontational :P

[Cactus]

A squad that's turbo-boosting isn't shooting, which I think was Stobz's point.

 

And my counter-point was that if my bikes need to move 24" to get into shooting position, those jumpers aren't shooting either, because their pistols are out of range...rendering the "turbo-boosting to get into position means you aren't shooting" argument ridiculous. For that matter, if the bikes don't turbo-boost, they can move 12" and shoot 24", versus moving 12" and shooting 12".

Good point. I hadn't considered the relative merits of shooting with each unit.

 

I could have sworn the reach of a turbo-boost move was 18" but I've just checked and found it's 18" to 24"!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Still comparing apples with oranges though(which I am also guilty of :) ). If we compare fast shooty units like the RAS is trying to be, BA dex HG jumpers with 4 plasma guns can reach out and touch our RAS big time, and unless we TB we lose really really fast, attach a Reclusiach or a Libby to 'equal' ours and we are doomed in both shooting and CC phases (they get that for well under 450btw) .

The newish dexes show us our pedigree, we need a tune up, luckily it's coming soon.

 

When comparing RAS with SM bikes we are, you guessed it....overpriced.

 

Hopefully the new dex will fix all that so we don't need to continually argue about the different awesomeness of fruit.

 

 

Peas

:ph34r:

stobz

[Tanhausen]

I'm sorry but both march10k and Stobz are wrong.

 

The answer is: vindicator.

 

Always.

 

And if you need a number, its 3.

 

PS. Obviously this is not a serious reply regarding RW bikers...JIC something thinks it is!

[Interrogator Stobz]

But joking aside Tan. because if it absolutely needs to be killed get three vindies ;) you make me think about max-min armies. If you take an RAS you need to take one less MM Typhoon.

 

My 'comp' army is:

Belial

4xCML DWS with TH/SS sprinkled liberally

3x MM TY

3x Vindies

 

no place for RAS for me except in fun lists, sorry.

[riddles]

3 vindies? not predators? makes me a sad puppy. having said that, i have a general downer on vindis. Maybe I should try them out more...how do they work for you stobz, given i'd be replacing 3 auto/las preds with them?

 

anywho, thought i'd weigh in here. Most of what's been said is fair enough (from both sides of the coin). What I will add is that ravenwing do MSU very, very well. I mean, to the max.

 

I know Tanhausen hates Stelek's version of the Ravenwing, but I quite liked the version I ran with a while back;

sammy - speeder

6x RAS - 3 double melta, 1 double plasma, 2 double flamer, 6 mmab

3 typhoon/mm

2 auto/bolter preds

 

so check it. 6 scouting multimeltas, 3 double melta hunter teams. 4 flamers for clearing out objectives. everything can outflank if necessary. Sammy and the preds provide dakka anti infantry. 12 scoring units. 18 KP, but fearless means you have to kill them all, you can't make them run away. I enjoyed it for a while, then put it away to pick the deathwing back up. It was the only way I could think of to compensate for the huge expense of the bikes - pack in as many specials and attack bikes as i could.

[Tanhausen]

I know Tanhausen hates Stelek's version of the Ravenwing

 

Erm...no. I don't hate nobody. The only issue I have is anybody saying "this this and this is THE list. If you don't see it, you stupid fluff-hugger and [insert whatever insulto you want]. If you play it and can't own your opponent by turn 2, you simply don't know how to play and should burn your models and go into taking care of a garden"

 

The only 1 time I remember saying something about that guy's list was regarding the KP, because it went crazy on stuff that lets face it: go down with 2 fat shots (missiles, lascannons). For example, 3 lone speeders and 6 bikes are 9 points... thats A LOT of easy points.

 

, but I quite liked the version I ran with a while back;

sammy - speeder

6x RAS - 3 double melta, 1 double plasma, 2 double flamer, 6 mmab

3 typhoon/mm

2 auto/bolter preds

 

2010 was my year of DW

 

2011 was my year of RW

 

I even attended a GT with pure RW.

 

From memory, I'd say it was something like:

 

Sammy in bike

6 x 3-6 bikes, double special, MM AB

3 x double speeder (Typhoon/MM, HB)

 

¿Did I do well? I had FUN! (which is ALWAYS my nº 1 goal).

 

I remember a game vs guard...he pounded me soooooooooo bad for 2 turns... and then I had this magical turn 3 where I delivered some 10-12 KP and he was like "its impossible!!"

 

I still smile at him when I see him at tournaments (he's a jerk).

 

@Stobz

 

I like you list, but as usual... extremely short on the body count.

 

Since terminators are your troops, you have to both kill AND stay alive...I like keeping at least 1 (if possible) 2 squads whose only mission in life is to grab an objective! Tough task doing that with DW :P

[Interrogator Stobz]

I think we are getng a little off topic :P But while we are, I used to do well with similar MSU RW lists as you guys. My canny opponents (mainly Ageis) figured out how to completely neuter them, then the FAQ made me go to DW more, they are ok but are still challenged by low model count.

 

Riddles, there is a cool tactica on vindies somewhere here that basically states: ALWAYS,ALWAYS, Always reserve the vindies. There is enough 48" shooty in 4xCML and 3xTyphoons to make the other guy walk, once he is walking, vindies turn up and blast them back to hell if they are on our half of the pitch.

 

It's worked for me so far, but everything is up for a change soon so 'flexibility in all things' as they say.

 

:P

stobz

[riddles]

Erm...no. I don't hate nobody. The only issue I have is anybody saying "this this and this is THE list. If you don't see it, you stupid fluff-hugger and [insert whatever insulto you want]. If you play it and can't own your opponent by turn 2, you simply don't know how to play and should burn your models and go into taking care of a garden"

well...he's not open and welcome, it's true.

 

The only 1 time I remember saying something about that guy's list was regarding the KP, because it went crazy on stuff that lets face it: go down with 2 fat shots (missiles, lascannons). For example, 3 lone speeders and 6 bikes are 9 points... thats A LOT of easy points.

he went sammael on bike and 8 RAS. all with melta attack bikes. 2xdouble plasma, 2xdouble flamer, 2xdouble melta and another 2 which i can't remember. no speeders involved.

 

Yes it's a lot of KP, but that's 1 mission. in objectives you are golden (at least in mine you are).

 

¿Did I do well? I had FUN! (which is ALWAYS my nº 1 goal).

 

I remember a game vs guard...he pounded me soooooooooo bad for 2 turns... and then I had this magical turn 3 where I delivered some 10-12 KP and he was like "its impossible!!"

 

I still smile at him when I see him at tournaments (he's a jerk).

name of the game my friend :P

 

Stobz, i'll see if I can dig out that tactica. The problem I have with vindicators is the single weapoin destroyed and its useless, combined with the short range. mind you, surrounding it with termis isn't a bad idea. 24 inches from the the back of the board isn't much though...

[march10k]

~shrug~ It's all good. I don't think they're incapable of smacking stuff around in melee, they just have to pick their fights and not get tangled up with proper melee units. I don't think they're overpriced, they're just paying for things that don't directly improve their melee ability, like the scout rule, telehomers, fast movement, the ability to unlock a CHEAP attack bike as a separate unit, and so on (which makes a comparison to an equal points value of stuff that doesn't have all those bells and whistles to pay for a bit unfair). I think the unit is an excellent addition to a green or bone army, but I wouldn't take it in an all ravenwing army. I think of them as being worth 300 points in melee, and paying an additional 150 for the speed, scout, telehomers, and so on.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Stobz, i'll see if I can dig out that tactica. The problem I have with vindicators is the single weapoin destroyed and its useless, combined with the short range. mind you, surrounding it with termis isn't a bad idea. 24 inches from the the back of the board isn't much though...

 

 

The basic tenents of the tactica were:

You keep them in reserve to prevent the weapon destroyed etc. result before you can use it.

The vindies scares the opponent into deploying and moving awayfrom your termies/board edge, (if they come in close early the termies can deal with it).

You need to deal with long range threats with other elements of the army prior to their arrival to force the opponent to come to you. (Our CML termies and Typhoons are great for that).

If there is no valid target when the Vindie arrives, move on 12" and drop smoke, next turn if the opponent hasn't fired everything at the Vindie to destroy it and relieved the rest of the army, move it 6" and shoot 24", that is a 42" threat bubble- almost the whole board by the second round they arrive.

Battlefield shaping through fear is the vindies best weapon, place objectives with that in mind and control your opponents movement with mind games.

Don't put objectives on or near cover if possible, cover is the enemies friend.

If they kill a Vindie they are not shooting troops, vindies are expendable once on the 'paddock'.

 

My personal feeling is three vindies do something three preds cannot, create fear and a safety 'gap' for the small number of troops in my list.

 

OT: I use predominatly Plasma MSU RAS when I do, that is due to the predominantly MEQ meta in my neck of the woods. Not many AV14 chassis to kill either so Missiles usually do the trick.

In one tourney I had Khan( :D ), 5 bikers and AB outflank and multi assault into an IG Battle psyker sqd, an Inq and Ret sqd and a hvy weapons platoon, killed enough that he needed cats eyes to pass Ld, fail, Init 5 Khan ran them all down, no losses to SM sqd, priceless.

Bikes can be cool and their points are not all about killing but they are indeed situational.

As I stated above, my local meta is MEQ heavy, dedicated CC is needed for CC vs BA, SW and Templars, apart from DWS we struggle to break even here.

 

 

:)

stobz