Couple of questions about Crowe

[Chengar Qordath]

The power not crowe.

So we're back to "psychic powers count as separate models" now?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Once more, you're drawing a distinction that does not exist. It does not matter that Cleansing Flame "is not a weapon" (though I'd argue that it definitely is unless you're deliberately adopting a narrow definition of 'weapon') all that matters is that it is a close-combat attack.

 

Until you can get around that little titbit, your argument, while logical, has no legs.

[Toasterfree]

you are back to assuming, you may want to stop that.

 

Does the rune priest have unlimited range, I.e. he can shoot his bolt pistol to zimbabwe or does living lightning?

no but LL does.

 

does CF say that "the caster of this power goes on a murderous rampage and automatically hits eveything in close combat with his weapn and blahblahblah.." no.

 

does CF anywhere say that Crowe HITs anyone.

no.

 

it says that CF causes a wound on 4+. Crowe does not make any attacks. CF does not say that it is rending. If its not in the rule for the power it doesnt apply. If that was the case then I would want to put my rune preists on twolves so that i could have rending LL and MH. but they simply dont have that in their profile so i dont want to do that. CF is not rending.

 

*gets astounding appluase*

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Well, at least the applause in your head is something to take away with you since you're clearly not going to shift your totally unsupportable and utterly erroneous view.

 

Have a good one, I've got better things to do.

[Murcielago]

So toasterfree, who at GW told you so? Was it a games designer or was it just some employee at a hobbystore???

 

Also, take a psychic power example from the wolves dex: a chooser of the slain gives your rune priests shooting attacks a +1 to hit right? Well that's a rule that benefits one of your runepriests abilities. Just like Crowe's master swordsman rule benefits his Cleansing Flame power...

 

Plus, you sound like a broken record, and the FAQ clears all of that up for us.

 

Happy hunting, and I hope you fight a Crowe player soon so you experience the rending flames :)

[Murcielago]

Also, your example with your little thunderpups is invalid. YOUR codex says that thunderwolves give rending to your Close Combat attacks, not your powers. If you had a close combat psychic power, then we would all judge that it also has rending because of your thunderpup add-ons...

[Chengar Qordath]

Also, your example with your little thunderpups is invalid. YOUR codex says that thunderwolves give rending to your Close Combat attacks, not your powers. If you had a close combat psychic power, then we would all judge that it also has rending because of your thunderpup add-ons...

Not to mention the wolf codex specifically outlines what causes thunderwolf cavalry to lose rending on their cc attacks.

[Toasterfree]

So toasterfree, who at GW told you so? Was it a games designer or was it just some employee at a hobbystore???

 

Also, take a psychic power example from the wolves dex: a chooser of the slain gives your rune priests shooting attacks a +1 to hit right? Well that's a rule that benefits one of your runepriests abilities. Just like Crowe's master swordsman rule benefits his Cleansing Flame power...

 

Plus, you sound like a broken record, and the FAQ clears all of that up for us.

 

Happy hunting, and I hope you fight a Crowe player soon so you experience the rending flames :)

CF does not cause hit. It causes wounds. As Crowe is not attacking there is no rending. The power, not Crowe is cause the wounds. If Cf said that the wounds rended on 4+ we wouldnt be arguing.

 

And no, it wasnt anyone at the hobby store. Maybe I sound like a broken record, just like I did when I was arguing that thunder hammers dont rend on the twolves, and guess who was right, not you. Guess who was right at getting +1 for more than 1 frost weapon pre FAQ, not you. Its only a matter of time again. only a matter of time...

 

my track record at being right about these is quite impressive. So I will go with many years of experience, and some common sense that the power doesnt say that it rends and go with being correct against the masses of being wrong again, and say TOLD YOU when an updated FAQ comes out.

 

 

Thanks for playin.

[Chengar Qordath]

So, let's be clear here:

 

Per the GW FAQ:

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack? (p31)

A: A close combat attack.

 

Do you dispute this official GW ruling?

 

Per Crowe's rules:

His close combat attacks have the rending special rule

 

Do you dispute the text of the codex?

 

Unless you question one of those two things, there's no case to be made.

[Toasterfree]

again, is CF causing Crowe to attack? NO.

 

ok. so where does CF state in anything that Crowe is attacking, it doesnt.

 

Thanks.

[Sanct]

+1 to toasterfree. (messy post ahead stay with me)

 

 

RAW: Does 'suffer a wound on a 4+' = 'To Wound roll'?

Rending wounds ''counts as wounds from a power weapon'' leads to ''models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves'' (P.42 BRB)

Is CF from 'the attacks' of the model armed with the weapon in question? If yes then purifiers (armed with force weapon) also allows CF to ignore armour saves.

What happens in a purifier squad which has replaced some nemesis weapon with specials? (psycannon etc)

If you count CF as a close combat attack, as suggested, you also have to question if you can use CF and Blade Shield in the same turn.

 

RAI: Looking at the question of 'shooting attack or close combat attack' seems to be about the psychic powers = shooting and whether a you could shoot your stormbolters/psycannon, assault and cast cleansing flame. If CF was a shooting attack then you can't use it if you shot beforehand.

[Toasterfree]

+1 to toasterfree. (messy post ahead stay with me)

 

 

RAW: Does 'suffer a wound on a 4+' = 'To Wound roll'?

Rending wounds ''counts as wounds from a power weapon'' leads to ''models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves'' (P.42 BRB)

Is CF from 'the attacks' of the model armed with the weapon in question? If yes then purifiers (armed with force weapon) also allows CF to ignore armour saves.

What happens in a purifier squad which has replaced some nemesis weapon with specials? (psycannon etc)

If you count CF as a close combat attack, as suggested, you also have to question if you can use CF and Blade Shield in the same turn.

 

RAI: Looking at the question of 'shooting attack or close combat attack' seems to be about the psychic powers = shooting and whether a you could shoot your stormbolters/psycannon, assault and cast cleansing flame. If CF was a shooting attack then you can't use it if you shot beforehand.

QFT

 

and that was my next bit of ammo too.

[Chengar Qordath]

RAW: Does 'suffer a wound on a 4+' = 'To Wound roll'?

Sounds like it to me; Crowe's player rolls a dice, and that roll determines whether or not the model takes a wound. Plenty of other things, like poisoned weapons, roll to wound based on a fixed number instead of strength vs. toughness, and there are plenty of attacks that don't need to roll to-hit in order to roll to-wound.

 

Is CF from 'the attacks' of the model armed with the weapon in question? If yes then purifiers (armed with force weapon) also allows CF to ignore armour saves.

What happens in a purifier squad which has replaced some nemesis weapon with specials? (psycannon etc)

If you count CF as a close combat attack, as suggested, you also have to question if you can use CF and Blade Shield in the same turn.

Weapon qualities wouldn't carry over to Cleansing Flame; it's a psychic power that has it's own rules/effects. Thing is Crowe's Rending comes from a special rule is stated to effect all of his close combat attacks, not from a weapon that only effects its own attacks.

 

NFWs and other special weapons: Only effect attacks made with those weapons

Crowe's Special Rules: Effect all of his close combat attacks, not just those made with a specific close combat weapon.

 

RAI: Looking at the question of 'shooting attack or close combat attack' seems to be about the psychic powers = shooting and whether a you could shoot your stormbolters/psycannon, assault and cast cleansing flame. If CF was a shooting attack then you can't use it if you shot beforehand.

All true, but none of it changes the fact that the FAQ explicitly says that Cleansing Flame counts as a close combat attack. Since the attack originates from Crowe, it's subject to his rules.

[Toasterfree]

Then purifies with NFW ignore saves with cf. it can't be different with two things. You are stretching and it's hurting me for you to be so wrong

[Morollan]

Whilst quite amusing to watch the incredible delusion that Toasterfree is enjoying, this argument is getting beyond ridiculous. The correct position was cleared up many posts ago and he hasn't added anything new since then.

[Mr.darkness]

Gotta agree with the general consensus. Toast fire is talking as if the CF creates these to wound rolls, which while it does make sense from a fluff point of view, it's not in the rules. The rules say that CF is a combat attack. The actuall power itself is a combat attack, therefore it rents as all of crowes combat attacks rend. There's really no other case to be made.

 

As for the 'is it a to wound roll' then yes, with reference to poisoned weapons, if something is rolling I order to wound something, then it I a to wound roll.

[Sanct]

Is CF from 'the attacks' of the model armed with the weapon in question? If yes then purifiers (armed with force weapon) also allows CF to ignore armour saves.

What happens in a purifier squad which has replaced some nemesis weapon with specials? (psycannon etc)

If you count CF as a close combat attack, as suggested, you also have to question if you can use CF and Blade Shield in the same turn.

Weapon qualities wouldn't carry over to Cleansing Flame; it's a psychic power that has it's own rules/effects. Thing is Crowe's Rending comes from a special rule is stated to effect all of his close combat attacks, not from a weapon that only effects its own attacks.

 

As far as CF and rending you answered me perfectly with ''it's a psychic power with it's own rules/effects.''

 

The next part hits my problem - NFW and rending ALL devolve back to the rules from the section on P.42. Especially when it says '...armed with...' because that completely ignores the idea of weapon qualities and replaces it with model qualities.

 

NFWs and other special weapons: Only effect attacks made with those weapons

Crowe's Special Rules: Effect all of his close combat attacks, not just those made with a specific close combat weapon.

 

Special +normal weapon says ''....all of their attacks..[snip]..use the special weapon's bonuses...''

 

CF is a close combat attack of purifiers. Purifiers are armed with NFW. All attacks by purifiers activate the power weapons rule.(note:power weapons only effect CC) The wounds caused by CF, are in close combat, so they ignore armour saves. So surely CF from purifiers ignore armour saves?

Unless the ''all attacks'' doesn't include psychic close combat attacks but for crowe ''his close combat attacks'' does.

 

Although i agree with toasterfree i am saying that the moment CF from crowe rends and ignores armour saves (by the masterswordsman logic) then CF from generic purifiers also ignores armour saves. (by the more absolute special weapons rule)

[Inquisitor Fox]

As a general reminder, please remember to keep discussion civil and constructive. I'd like to avoid another topic of nastiness...

 

Carry on ^_^

[Murcielago]

This thread is quite amusing because this guy seems to just keep saying the same things...

 

But I mean, its Crowe...he's practically worthless anyways and is on the bottom of the good special characters list. So you DO realize your getting upset at an almost useless hero right?

[Chengar Qordath]

The next part hits my problem - NFW and rending ALL devolve back to the rules from the section on P.42. Especially when it says '...armed with...' because that completely ignores the idea of weapon qualities and replaces it with model qualities.

'Tis the way Crowe's rules were set up though. The Codex doesn't say "His close combat weapons have the rending quality," it says "his close combat attacks have the Rending special rule." GW made a point of putting the rule on the model, not on the weapon.

 

Interestingly, it's not the first time GW put a weapon rule onto a model; GW put rending on a model instead of a weapon as far back as the Chaos Daemon Codex with Skulltaker, and the 'Nid codex did the exact same thing with their Toxin Sacs upgrade. Not to mention that there are plenty of Rending and poisoned shooting weapons, despite the rules being listed in the cc weapon section.

 

As for why GW put a rule that they apply to models, shooting weapons, and close combat weapons in the close combat weapons section ... well, GW has always made some odd layout decisions.

 

Special +normal weapon says ''....all of their attacks..[snip]..use the special weapon's bonuses...''

 

CF is a close combat attack of purifiers. Purifiers are armed with NFW. All attacks by purifiers activate the power weapons rule.(note:power weapons only effect CC) The wounds caused by CF, are in close combat, so they ignore armour saves. So surely CF from purifiers ignore armour saves?

Unless the ''all attacks'' doesn't include psychic close combat attacks but for crowe ''his close combat attacks'' does.

I'd have to say that there is a difference between a psychic close combat attack and an attack with an ordinary or special close combat weapon.

 

In order for the section you quoted from Pg 42 to apply and result in Nemesis Force Weapon's giving their bonuses to Cleansing Flame, Cleansing Flame would have to be a normal close combat weapon. Don't think anyone would argue that it is one.

 

By the by, I'm enjoying having a debate with someone who brings up good points that I actually have to sit back and think about for a bit in order to answer.

[Stormshadow]

Well, I guess we all can agree that Crove has the special rule of rending and not his weapons. So he would rend with a spoon or ore just his fist for that matter. And we can all see what was stated in the FAQ. Question is how well do these bits of knowledge fit together in forming a conclusion… Do you remember the good old days when we were arguing over if you could shoot of a holocaust in the assault phase without being in combat? GW’s response to this was to say “A: Holocaust is a shooting attack”. And because you couldn’t use shooting psychic powers while in cc in 5th, holocaust became useless. But I think we all realized that this was not a reflection on how GW wanted the game to be played, but a reflection on how awful there FAQ’s are. And they always change their minds don’t they? In one FAQ acute senses negated the shrouding and in another it didn’t. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if the falcions were meant to be +2 A in the beginning (hens the point cost and fluff text) but they changed their mind (or rather Matts mind) in the FAQ.

 

Fluff wise, I can see how someone that can pick out sweet spots with his fist could also do it with his mind, directing the flame so to say. RAW I think you can back it up as well, but RAI it becomes rely iffy. Who knows what the scatterbrains at GW intended, and what they will eventually change their minds to later (this may be why they write so wage rules, to leave room for backpedaling :P).

 

I would allow my opponent to play either way, or ask the people holding the tournament to make a house ruling. It’s just Crowe after all, what harm is he going to do? ;)

[Morollan]

It’s just Crowe after all, what harm is he going to do? ;)

 

Depends how many rolls of 4+ he makes :P

 

I initially thought that this was probably an unintended consequence of the FAQ ruling, ie correct by RAW but not RAI. Now though, I'm not so sure. For a start, there are only 2 units in the game that have Cleansing Flame so surely even GW's godawful FAQ writers must have thought about that before answering (optimistic I know). Secondly, as many people on here have been quick to point out - Crowe is pretty bad. So maybe this was not an unintended consequence. Maybe they realised that he needed a bump to make him worth taking?

 

Who knows. Anyway, the RAW is pretty clear on the matter and until/unless a further FAQ comes out stating that Crowe doesn't get rending on CF then he does.

[Murcielago]

Agreed...now that THAT'S settled

[Gentlemanloser]

Does Crowe USE A WEAPON AT ALL when using CF?

 

Simple anwer is no. Crowe is NOT making any attacks.

 

You do not need a Weapon to make an attack.

 

A mini without a single CCW (for example, a GK Strike with a Psycannon) can still 'attack' in CC.

 

So, we've shown that Close Combat Attacks don't need a CCW. Next, is the superflous claim that only an attack using a A statistic is actually a 'close combat attack'.

 

Well, that's easily disproved. Crowe doesn't have an A statistic.

 

So, we've shown imperically that that;

 

A Close Combat Attack doesn't require a Weapon.

A Close Combat Attack doesn't require the use of the A statistic.

 

As the GK FAQ rules the use of Cleasning Flame a 'Close Combat Attack', and Crowe is casting CF (and would sufferany Perils taken), then it's obvious to all and sundry that when Crowe uses CF he is making a Close Combat Attack.

 

Can we move on from this? Please?

 

(If you *really* want to deny Crowe Rending CF, the arguement to use is the specific wording of Crowes Master Swordsman. Not that using CF isn't a Close Combat Attack for Crowe, which is plain idiocy...)

[Toasterfree]

This is one case where you want you cake, but aren't able to eat it. You say on one hand that CF tAkes on properties of one unit but not another. It either works the same for both or it doesn't work that way at all. Happens for the masses that the wounds are caused by CF and not by Crowe. All he is doing is activating and ability. That ability does NOT have the rending usr. You can argue cases here and cases there and this that and what not, but the simple point is that CF does not state that the model hits. Important verbiage for it to work off of Crowe rending is missing. Crowe is not attacking a anyone when using CF he is just using CF. when he passes CF then goes and does a wound to everyOne on a 4+. If you want to say that tends then all purifiers with NFW deny armor saves when using the power, however the power says that they get their armor saves. So if the results of the power are granting the victims to get their saves it can never benefit from power weapons NFW or rending.