Our Wargear

[Kol Saresk]

I was thinking about something. But with as many threads I start with the intent of asking questions, I guess that is obvious. Anyway, the current state of our wargear(or lack of) has always been explained as "Chaos Marines have Heresy gear and as such are limited. And the newer Renegades simply have a lack of funding." But the Traitor Marines left Terra for the Eye relatively intact. Other than the fact that Horus was dead, their morale was crushed and I'm pretty sure the Imperials were taking potshots at them while they were retreating. But still, they should have had plenty of wargear. And that wargear should have been pretty advanced too. They had jetbikes AND land speeders for crying out loud. Not to mention their ships. Their strike cruisers and battle barges were ship killers. Then there are the daemon engines and the forgeworlds and hive worlds that have been corrupted or turned into daemon worlds. And I know there used to be Kai Guns and other manufactured daemon weapons.

 

So why is our wargear explained by "Heresy-era"? When there are thousands of Marines who possess said Heresy-era? And in good condition for the ones who have access to maintenance capabilities.

[Bearingtheword]

That's something I have always wondered as well.....Not to mention the fact that they are often raiding, corrupting or taking over Imperial worlds (including forgeworlds)...so why should they not have access to the varied equipment that the 40k universe has to offer....

 

My only answer that I can come up with is one that I absolutely abhor: game balance.....

 

I mean I understand that we need to have things balanced but to me at least there should be some redundancy when dealing with Imperial and post-Imperial (CSM) forces....

 

~BtW

[RolandTHTG]

I've always understood the "Heresy Era" restrictions to be combi-bolters instead of Stormbolters, Reaper autocannon instead of Assault cannons, and the lack of Storm Shields.

[Brother Nihm]

Remember that we used to have access to all imperial tech in 2nd Ed.

[the jeske]

yes but at a 50%more cost .

 

fluffwise it is like this legion fleets [the marines parts that survive at least] did not have huge forge ships and resupplied just like loyalists today. without ad mecha the resources loyalist get and without their home worlds the supply chains broken down very fast . the eye is the most deadly of places you can try to live .+they had the whole legion war thing post heresy , some legions breaking up etc . we have older/weaker gear because we always had wicked psychic powers , god gifts , marks etc .

the weaker rules for some gear were there as a balance . after a few dex it just became a chaos . combi bolters /reapers etc. all was good till thorpe decide to castrate the dex for legiona and make it a renegade one . then it made no sense at all .

[darth_giles]

yes but at a 50%more cost .

During the 3.0 era, I'd have been willing to pay a higher cost for looted Marine equipment, or just a Chaplain and Librarian to lead my force.

 

fluffwise it is like this legion fleets [the marines parts that survive at least] did not have huge forge ships and resupplied just like loyalists today. without ad mecha the resources loyalist get and without their home worlds the supply chains broken down very fast . the eye is the most deadly of places you can try to live .+they had the whole legion war thing post heresy , some legions breaking up etc . we have older/weaker gear because we always had wicked psychic powers , god gifts , marks etc .

Except for the fact that Chaos has the Black Mechanicus, and the Word Bearers have their own Forge World in the Maelstrom; which suggests that Chaos has better supply systems than we'd thought. The Eye of Terror might be a deadly place, but the CSMs have been there for ten thousand years. I'd be seriously concerned if the organized factions (Black Legion, Word Bearers, ones like that) hadn't developed reliable supply lines.

the weaker rules for some gear were there as a balance . after a few dex it just became a chaos . combi bolters /reapers etc. all was good till thorpe decide to castrate the dex for legiona and make it a renegade one . then it made no sense at all .

From what I've read, Gav wasn't so much the guy who wrote it, as the guy who was forced into an impossible position by executive meddling. GW management passed him a list of things it wanted done to the codex, and Gav had to figure out how to make it work.

[Brother Nihm]

yes but at a 50%more cost.

Personally I find that to be fair, given the rarity, lack of skills to maintain, as well as the facilities to produce said tech.

 

And besides Khorne Berzerkers /w twin claws, Blessing of the Blood God & Collars of Khorne paid nothing for their weapons, (C:SM: 0pts +50% = 0pts :P)

[Malthe]

What annoys me is that the writers at GW are incapable (mostly!) of sticking to established fluff: Heresy-Era tech is supposed to be better than that of 41.M! Yet Chaos, despite have all the freedom to experiment that the AdMech doesn't allow, have less fancy toys than the Imperials...

Doesn't make sense.

 

Chaos Marines should be veterans of ten-thousand years, gifted by their gods and with access to better wargear than the Space Marines of the Imperium. Hopefully this will be represented in the next codex ;)

[Dammeron]

Once upon a time, Chaos forces had the most voluminous armoury in the entire game, which is as it should be: conventional wargear scraped and scavenged from ten millennia of warfare with the Emperor's lapdogs, warp-forged daemon engines and cursed artefacts; gifts of the gods, and so on and so forth. One of the things that typically characterised Chaos up to the current codex was the ability to tailor not only squads but individual models with regards to a character dynamic. This makes perfect sense from a background perspective: the forces of Chaos aren't beholden to the same superstitions and dogmatic restrictions as their loyalist counterparts, or indeed any force in 40K. Even the Tyranids, various as they are, are bound by restrictions of physical and biological law. The forces of Chaos are not: options and the potential for insane amounts of customisation are what should ideally characterise Chaos forces in general in my book.

[minigun762]

I don't think it makes as much sense as it should simply because its a marketing tool to make good marines and bad marines feel & look different.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't think it makes as much sense as it should simply because its a marketing tool to make good marines and bad marines feel & look different.

Not to mention that all the loyalist players wouldn't happy if Chaos got all the loyalist toys plus all their own unique chaos things. There are times when fluff needs to take a backseat to game balance.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I don't think it makes as much sense as it should simply because its a marketing tool to make good marines and bad marines feel & look different.

Not to mention that all the loyalist players wouldn't happy if Chaos got all the loyalist toys plus all their own unique chaos things. There are times when fluff needs to take a backseat to game balance.

 

Yeah. Or, seperate codices for the Legions (Heresy-era wragear) and renegade chapters (contemporary gear). Simple.

[darth_giles]

Yeah. Or, seperate codices for the Legions (Heresy-era wragear) and renegade chapters (contemporary gear). Simple.

Careful what you wish for. People wished for the option to field an army of just Daemons, and look what happened.

[Brother Nihm]

I don't think it makes as much sense as it should simply because its a marketing tool to make good marines and bad marines feel & look different.

Not to mention that all the loyalist players wouldn't happy if Chaos got all the loyalist toys plus all their own unique chaos things. There are times when fluff needs to take a backseat to game balance.

Amusing thought considering that they took our Veteran skills, AV 13 dreads & super HQs. :D

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

They say "heresy era" as an excuse for are lack of options and wargear, yet small problem with that, a lot of stuff (such as assault cannons, land speeders, jetbikes ect) were either experimental or fully used there, and the loyalists seem to have access to a lot of "heresy era" stuff that we don't have, a perfect example is the contemptor options.

At the moment, it feels like chaos has had to buy it's weapons and wargear at charity shops whilst the loyalists can afford, well anything else.

[Castiel]

I guess that the number one reason really is so that Chaos Marines aren't just "loyalists with spikes" with a couple of unique units. It serves as a method by which to differentiate between the Loyalists and the Traitors. Loyalists have all the nice, shiny, "new" stuff, while we use old kit handed down from marine to marine, outdated by Imperial standards, but its still deadly - and it has a life of its own.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I guess that the number one reason really is so that Chaos Marines aren't just "loyalists with spikes" with a couple of unique units. It serves as a method by which to differentiate between the Loyalists and the Traitors. Loyalists have all the nice, shiny, "new" stuff, while we use old kit handed down from marine to marine, outdated by Imperial standards, but its still deadly - and it has a life of its own.

 

 

And some of the gear isn't strictly-speaking worse than the new toys the Loyalists get. For instance, the assault cannon replaced the reaper autocannon. It gets two extra shots and rending, but loses a point of strength, a foot of range, and twin-linked. I don't think anyone will claim the reaper is better than the ass-can, but the fact remains that the upgrade wasn't as "up" and more "sideways" than most people think.

 

So that being said, I do think that the Chaos weaponry does need something extra to set it apart as Chaotic. After all, these weapons have been exposed to the raw stuff of the warp just as long as the Legionnaires carrying them have, and will have received blessings/curses/etc just as the Traitor Marines have. For instance, to keep with the Reaper, I think it should be an assault weapon and maybe push the AP by one more to make it a true threat to Marines, and give the option for regular CSM to carry it. It'd just be nice to get some more-unique gear as a function of separating Chaos Marines from their Imperial heritage; it makes them more of their own army, if you will.

[Lexington]

So why is our wargear explained by "Heresy-era"? When there are thousands of Marines who possess said Heresy-era? And in good condition for the ones who have access to maintenance capabilities.

This disjunct is due to a fairly big retcon of what is and isn't "Heresy era" tech.

 

The 2nd Edition Chaos Codex is really the start of what we think of as the Chaos Space Marine army list. It gave the background for the Traitor Legions, introduced the Special Characters that still define the list to this day, and set down what's still the basis of the Chaos armory. So, you had familiar things like Reaper Autocannons, twin-linked Bolters and combi-weapons on Terminators, and others that had special rules that've since been genericized, like the Power Maul, or everyone's favorite, the Chain-Axe. The Codex's background stated that these were the standard armaments of the Heresy-era Legion forces, and that several of them were predecessors of "modern" 40K weaponry. While it was unbelievably slow, technology had evolved at least a little since Horus put the Emperor on the Throne.

 

I'm not sure if it was the Heresy card game or the artbooks that first did it, but when GW decided to start fleshing out the Heresy, this was up-ended. Technology within the Imperium was now supposed to have either stayed totally static or even regressed since the Heresy. The problem is, the game and model line have never actually been updated to reflect this, so you've got a bunch of guys with grungy old weaponry that, by current background, shouldn't be.

[the jeske]

Except for the fact that Chaos has the Black Mechanicus, and the Word Bearers have their own Forge World in the Maelstrom; which suggests that Chaos has better supply systems than we'd thought. The Eye of Terror might be a deadly place, but the CSMs have been there for ten thousand years. I'd be seriously concerned if the organized factions (Black Legion, Word Bearers, ones like that) hadn't developed reliable supply lines.

having a forge world or a forge ship or even claiming boons from chaos ad mecha means nothing when you still have to get out of the eye to get actual raw materials to make stuff. + your forgetting that the new fluff is that they work in independants warbands , big groups yes can make crusades or huge attacks to get stuff smallers ones cant . ergo they use crapier stuff.

From what I've read, Gav wasn't so much the guy who wrote it, as the guy who was forced into an impossible position by executive meddling. GW management passed him a list of things it wanted done to the codex, and Gav had to figure out how to make it work.

no such things were heard from him or Alisio . even if he got a list of "remove all legion rules and streamline stuff" , there still were better ways to do it .remember at the time he was writing it ,so were wards demons and the orcs dex was ready too. and sm were being tested. he knew that basic HQs are going to modify FoC . imagine the chaos dex if a chaos lord on a bike would make bikes troops or scoring . or a jump pack lord[not a wing one] would make raptors troops/scoring . better yet try to play it like that a few times.

[Castiel]

I guess that the number one reason really is so that Chaos Marines aren't just "loyalists with spikes" with a couple of unique units. It serves as a method by which to differentiate between the Loyalists and the Traitors. Loyalists have all the nice, shiny, "new" stuff, while we use old kit handed down from marine to marine, outdated by Imperial standards, but its still deadly - and it has a life of its own.

 

 

And some of the gear isn't strictly-speaking worse than the new toys the Loyalists get. For instance, the assault cannon replaced the reaper autocannon. It gets two extra shots and rending, but loses a point of strength, a foot of range, and twin-linked. I don't think anyone will claim the reaper is better than the ass-can, but the fact remains that the upgrade wasn't as "up" and more "sideways" than most people think.

 

So that being said, I do think that the Chaos weaponry does need something extra to set it apart as Chaotic. After all, these weapons have been exposed to the raw stuff of the warp just as long as the Legionnaires carrying them have, and will have received blessings/curses/etc just as the Traitor Marines have. For instance, to keep with the Reaper, I think it should be an assault weapon and maybe push the AP by one more to make it a true threat to Marines, and give the option for regular CSM to carry it. It'd just be nice to get some more-unique gear as a function of separating Chaos Marines from their Imperial heritage; it makes them more of their own army, if you will.

 

Exactly, although far more eloquently put than my post!

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

So that being said, I do think that the Chaos weaponry does need something extra to set it apart as Chaotic. After all, these weapons have been exposed to the raw stuff of the warp just as long as the Legionnaires carrying them have, and will have received blessings/curses/etc just as the Traitor Marines have. For instance, to keep with the Reaper, I think it should be an assault weapon and maybe push the AP by one more to make it a true threat to Marines, and give the option for regular CSM to carry it. It'd just be nice to get some more-unique gear as a function of separating Chaos Marines from their Imperial heritage; it makes them more of their own army, if you will.

To play devil's advocate, is it not just as easy to justify some kind of penalty for Chaotic influence and that because of its unreliability many actively remove Chaos influence, much like Talos and his band of merry astartes in Soul Hunter? It isn't enough to just add Chaos saying it will be better because of it.

 

I personally believe that any traitor codex should be able to choose between loyalist gear and slightly unreliable Chaotic gear, both at the same price but more expensive than their loyalist counterparts. Chaotic gear should not be able to hurt their wielders or friendly units - but just how powerful they are can vary both better and worse than the loyalist baseline. As a result of their wargear being borderline more expensive, there should be bonuses applied to every unit that has a loyalist version as part of the traitors' standard. What can be done from there is more flexible, but I would stress equal expansion of both Chaotic and non-Chaotic traitors so that both forces are viable and not restricted to a single build each, or even three builds each.

 

An example of equal expansion might be Extensive Modification - only purchasable by a unit without a Chaos mark, adds +1 BS and adds an additional shot. Kai Gun, the vets will explain this better than I will :D

 

But that's just my opinion, take it or leave it B)

[nurglez]

back in the good old days of 2nd edition, when I first started playing, the chaos codex was awesome. Chaos weaponry was generally more damaging, but riskier.

 

All from memory of course.

The imperial plasmagun either fired on low (shoot each turn) or high (1 shot every other turn, possibly a chance to hurt yourself). Chaos plasma was a sustained fire dice (a d6 with a combination of 1,2,3 and jam, jam was bad mmmmkay).

 

Imperials got the storm bolter, we got a combi bolter, that gave us an extra attack due to the spikes on it.

 

Terminator armour possibly didn't have certain abilities inbuilt, plague marines threw blight grenades and had plague knives (which could either instantly kill or cause multiple wounds).

 

etc etc

 

over the years we have either lost certain bonuses (extra attack for combi bolters, plague knives) and with all plasma being the same, we lost that bit as well. I still think that currently, the best codex to represent a generic chaos force is the space wolves.

 

I sort of like the direction forge world has taken, comparing the contemptor rules between loyalist and chaos, or the storm eagle.

[darth_giles]

Terminator armour possibly didn't have certain abilities inbuilt, plague marines threw blight grenades and had plague knives (which could either instantly kill or cause multiple wounds).

 

etc etc

 

over the years we have either lost certain bonuses (extra attack for combi bolters, plague knives) and with all plasma being the same, we lost that bit as well. I still think that currently, the best codex to represent a generic chaos force is the space wolves.

Plague Knives were in for 3.0, but removed from 3.5 because of how little use Plague Knives got in 3.0. I'm not sure if it reflected how people used Plague Marines or not, but GW repurposed them from a fish-nor-fowl unit to a shooty one.

 

I sort of like the direction forge world has taken, comparing the contemptor rules between loyalist and chaos, or the storm eagle.

Now if only we can get the Infernal Device back.

[alphariusomegon20]

back in the good old days of 2nd edition, when I first started playing, the chaos codex was awesome. Chaos weaponry was generally more damaging, but riskier.

 

All from memory of course.

The imperial plasmagun either fired on low (shoot each turn) or high (1 shot every other turn, possibly a chance to hurt yourself). Chaos plasma was a sustained fire dice (a d6 with a combination of 1,2,3 and jam, jam was bad mmmmkay).

 

Imperials got the storm bolter, we got a combi bolter, that gave us an extra attack due to the spikes on it.

 

Terminator armour possibly didn't have certain abilities inbuilt, plague marines threw blight grenades and had plague knives (which could either instantly kill or cause multiple wounds).

 

etc etc

 

over the years we have either lost certain bonuses (extra attack for combi bolters, plague knives) and with all plasma being the same, we lost that bit as well. I still think that currently, the best codex to represent a generic chaos force is the space wolves.

 

I sort of like the direction forge world has taken, comparing the contemptor rules between loyalist and chaos, or the storm eagle.

 

 

Not always. The Reaper was not only more reliable than the Ass Cannon, but the Ass Cannon could also blow up in your face, a feature the Reaper never would do. ( If all 3 sustained fire dice came up up as jams, the AC blew up in your face and you no longer had a weapon for the rest of the game. The Reaper had only two dice and the worst it would do was not fire for two turns.)

[Hellios]

I don't mind chaos wargear/weapons putting the user at risk but I don't want to go into Ork randomness... I've never liked the idea that people seem to have about Chaos being random. I don't mind a bit but I don't want it over the top.

 

Oh and I would like the old mastery rules back... none of this roll a 1 and you can't attack rubbish. Leadership tests please.