Termies

[VIIILegionaire.]

So. I really like terminators, still. They have been one of my favorite units my entire life. Obviously with our current codex, we now they are not fighting at their peak at the moment. So I was wondering, what kind of tactics is everyone using, and I don't mean termicide, in fact, don't bring it up, I want to get more use out of my termies then just jump in and die. So what are some of your favorite tactics?

[Brother Nihm]

In fun games,

 

4x Termies

1x Chainfist

3x Combi-Plasma

1x Heavy Flamer

 

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, /w MoS and counts-as Blissgiver. link

 

Tactic:

Pray for a good reserve roll and deepstrike them on/near my turbo boosting Nurgle bikers.

 

If the roll is bad, e.g. they are delayed or my bikers are shot to pieces, then they become either a counter-attack unit or an objective camper/contester unit.

[King Willy]

Claws and Khorne champion termies MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

 

6 attacks on the charge re rolling to wound powerweapons, nough said.

 

redonkulously fun to use in a land raider during apoc games, sometimes throw Khârn in with them with a trolly smile.

very points efficient but pretty nasty all in all, still no Draigowing though or even a wolfwing.

[Castiel]

Power Fists and reaper autocannon. Pray the scatter is kind and land behind your opponents armour. Blow ;): up

[greatcrusade08]

Ive always been a big fan of having 4 or 5 termies deepstrike with heavy lamer and a couple of combi-flamers.

on occasion ive run a sorcerr in TDA with breathe/wind of chaos with them for added template madness.

although with heavy weapons becoming a must to combat MSU razorback spam in my area im slowly coming around to dusting off the reaper autocannon termy sittingon my shelf

[Blackmonkey0]

Hmm for me its either 3 or 4 man squad.

With Heavy Flamer, 2 combi (flamer and melta) and a Chainfist.

 

They teleport right into the thick of it (next to a icon to stop scatter).

Made short work of a Ultramarine termy squad and captain just last night.

[minigun762]

When I use them, its typically 4 Terminators, 1 power fist, 3 combi-melta and a heavy flamer.

4 bodies that can help me do almost anything.

[Xenith]

Claws and Khorne champion termies MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

 

6 attacks on the charge re rolling to wound powerweapons, nough said.

How do you make 6 attacks on the charge? IIRC, it's 2 base, +1 for being a champion, +1 for twin LC, +1 for charging.

 

Terminators are cheap at the cost they are, take 10, mark of Tzeentch and 2xreapers, couple of combis and a chainfist for utility, and your opponent has a serious threat to deal with.

[Thor{DoH}]

Mark of Khorne gives you +1A.

[Clewz]

Which works better for everybody: the reaper or the heavy flamer?

[Brother Nihm]

The Heavy Flamer for me, by far.

 

No Relentless on our Terminators.. :jaw:

[Inquisitor Fox]

I thought on page 86 of the Chaos 'dex it read:

... are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons ...

Not quite fire rapid fire as stationary, but pretty close, right?

 

On another note... I was considering making an Alpha Legion list with a unit of 5 Termies with reaper autocannon/chainfist, 3 w/ power weapon and combi-plasma, and one with TL lightning claws... all models being Champions and mark of Chaos Glory. It looked fun on paper anyway for a mere 260 points...

[Brother Nihm]

I thought on page 86 of the Chaos 'dex it read:

... are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons ...

Not quite fire rapid fire as stationary, but pretty close, right?

True, but having a 30" range on Combi-Plasmas is a lot imho and would compliment the pricy Reaper nicely.

[Kristoff]

I thought on page 86 of the Chaos 'dex it read:

... are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons ...

Not quite fire rapid fire as stationary, but pretty close, right?

True, but having a 30" range on Combi-Plasmas is a lot imho and would compliment the pricy Reaper nicely.

 

And if you're using the plasma part of Combi-plasmas beyond 12" you're just screwing yourself.

[Brother Nihm]

I thought on page 86 of the Chaos 'dex it read:

... are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons ...

Not quite fire rapid fire as stationary, but pretty close, right?

True, but having a 30" range on Combi-Plasmas is a lot imho and would compliment the pricy Reaper nicely.

 

And if you're using the plasma part of Combi-plasmas beyond 12" you're just screwing yourself.

Situationally, yes.

Rapid-firing is of course preferable because combis (the plasma/melta/flamer part at least) are one-shot.

 

But still, 30" plasma guns for 5 pts a piece, rawr..

[Inquisitor Fox]

It seemed to me the better thing would be to have the reaper to either pop transports from a distance, or be a long range weapon when there was no short range targets. The combi-plasma rapid fire barrage would be for a deep strike near a target of opportunity or a pre-charge action, and the one lightning claw termie was there to generate more wounds in combat. I discounted the bolters because really 3 bolters vs 4 bolters is inconsequential (And what is up with no stormbolters anyway? That's just crazy.. you guys got shafted is what you got...).

 

So really it was deep strike and volley... probably get charged unless you were walking to your target that you annihilate with a lot of power weapon attacks, then use the reaper cannon as support fire as you walk towards your next target. Or start deployed, use the reaper autocannon as you advance, unload your plasma and charge, then go back to fire support while looking for another target. Not as nasty up close as a flamer, but helps provide long range fire support which is otherwise lacking as a general rule.

 

Granted I've never done anything with Chaos models other than leaf through the Codex a couple of times and plan some modeling projects to attempt in the next couple of years, but they're not that different from loyalist Termies when it comes down to it. ;)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Granted I've never done anything with Chaos models other than leaf through the Codex a couple of times and plan some modeling projects to attempt in the next couple of years, but they're not that different from loyalist Termies when it comes down to it. ;)

 

But where they are different will prove quite telling, especially once you start to lose models.

[Inquisitor Fox]

There are differences, but I think the differences are actually in your guys favor (other than the stormbolter thing).

 

Firstly, the option to give each and every model an additional attack for a very affordable point cost. This is fantastic. Once in hand to hand your Termies are better off especially since you also have the option to Mark of Khorne them for an additional attack. You are putting out twice as many attacks at that point as a Loyalist Termie. Starting with regular power weapons and having the option to swap for powerfists or lightning claws is actually really cool. Clearly better than a Codex Astartes Termie, comporable to a Space Wolf or Grey Knight Termie (albeit without the so-awesome-it's-broken force halberd) although you definitely beat the Grey Knights in sheer number of attacks. I'd kill for the ability to make all my Termies 3 attacks base.

 

The ability to have combi-plasma or combi-melta for dirt cheap on each model is actually a steal. The only downside is that you don't have the same firepower at range with twin-linked bolters as a stormbolter. Again, y'all got ripped off. What this says to me overall is that a Chaos Terminator is better at short range firefights or in hand to hand rather than long range fire support. The caveat is that the reaper autocannon is really really sweet, and gives you something to do while trying to get into hand to hand. It also gives you heavy weapons fire on the move, which seems to be lacking in the Codex outside of tanks, dreads (who may or may not go insane), that giant-bug-spider-thing who's name escapes me at the moment, or Forge World stuff.

 

Once you start losing models... I don't actually think it's that big of a deal. Once you've fired the combi portion of your combi-weapon, you have a guy with a bolter and a good save. He might have a lot of attacks, but I'd sacrifice those members of the squad over your lightning claw members or folks with a chainfist any day. Keeping some members dirt cheap armed with a combi-weapon makes them fire-and-forget models, easily expended to soak wounds. In fact, one could make the argument they're better off not being Champions, and just Championing your valuable lightning claw or chainfist models. Keep the squad cheap and have expendible losses once they've fired off their plasma or melta shots. Mmmm.. meat shields...

 

What advantage does a loyalist Termie have at that point? Less attacks on average, going at a slower initiative. A standard loyalist Termie has better firepower at range than a Chaos Termie, but once you're engaged that advantage is nil. The only difference is going to be thunder hammer/stormshield models... since your lightning claw Termies are better than the Loyalist version mechanically. So really, just don't charge hammernators and you're golden ;) Or Grey Knights with pointy sticks... we really got lucky with the latest Codex and it makes me feel kinda guilty.. though I've had the same models for 8 years on that front so people can just deal ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You raise an excellent point about the hand to hand situation, particular with MoK involved. I personally never bought into the whole termicide concept or the somewhat-pervasive opinion that Chaos termies are crap, and I'm glad someone with fresh eyes is pointing that out.

 

That being said, I think the issue at hand -- in my mind, being that Chaos termies, despite their advantages, are not used for close combat very often -- is not due to Termies sucking, but instead is due to the sheer utility that comes from Khorne Berzerkers. Points are as follows:

 

A.) Three attacks base, four on the charge -- something Termies get only if they go for twin claws with MoK.

B.) Furious Charge, striking faster and harder than 90% of Space Marines -- something Termies can't get.

C.) Weapon Skill 5 -- something else Termies can't get.

D.) As Troops, they score and can therefore hold objectives -- something thing Termies can't do.

E.) Can travel in cheap Rhinos -- yet another thing Termies can't do.

F.) Can Sweeping Advance beaten enemies -- that's right, something Termies can't do.

 

And there may be more, that's just off the top of my head without immediate access to the Codex.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Interesting analysis, except you forgot one thing: there is no "Mark of Khorne", it's an Icon of Khorne, which means it's only going to last as long as the guy carrying it does. You'll NEVER lose ATSKNF on a Loyalist Terminator, and when the Chaos Termies break and run on a failed Ld test (something which can be modified by certain things on the field, usually to detriment), and they can't rally back, then you have bog-standard attack Terminators that you actually paid MORE for because of that Icon to get them that additional attack, and they're running pell-mell off the board and won't stop.

 

In addition, okay, let's presume the best possible scenario: your Termies vs Loyalist Assault Termies in close combat, where the Chaos Terminator supposedly should shine. You have Champs and Icon of Khorne, they have storm shields that make your power attacks essentially worthless because the guy is holding what amounts to a Tactical Marine in front of him. You'll get your four swings on the charge, maybe five if you're running twin claws, which they'll absorb on 3++. Then they swing back, and you get to take it on the chin at 5++ because you took Icon of Khorne and that does nothing for your Invul Save. You'll lose a lot more bodies than they did, and you're not Fearless even as Champs, so you get the Ld test at negative numbers because, well, unless their dice just absolutely stank then you lost, and let's say you manage to pass it. Now you're locked into combat with a bunch of hammer guys with their shields, and that's presuming there weren't claw guys in there giving it to you at the same time you were giving it to them, which you got to suck at 5++ while they could choose to take your attacks on 3++ shield guys because it's all one unit. If you failed that Ld test, yeah, they can't sweep you, but you also can't rally, so you flee. Even if you win that fight, somehow, they break and run, rally, and come back at you again because you can't sweep them. Rinse, repeat.

 

So in essence a Chaos Terminator, whose equipment (with the exception of the reaper autocannon) forces them to be close-in fighters or short-range shooters, is all-in-all less survivable in close combat or at short-range shooting than its Loyalist counterparts, even at their meanest. This is why Chaos Terminators suck compared to the Loyalists: they can't even do the job they're equipped for as well as other units in the Chaos Codex can.

[Inquisitor Fox]

You raise an excellent point about the hand to hand situation, particular with MoK involved. I personally never bought into the whole termicide concept or the somewhat-pervasive opinion that Chaos termies are crap, and I'm glad someone with fresh eyes is pointing that out.

 

That being said, I think the issue at hand -- in my mind, being that Chaos termies, despite their advantages, are not used for close combat very often -- is not due to Termies sucking, but instead is due to the sheer utility that comes from Khorne Berzerkers. Points are as follows:

Khorne Beserkers are indeed awesome.. but there's still decided advantages that Termies enjoy that they do not, particularly in the armor save department (although that's a number of wounds vs superior save argument, similar to Grey Knight Terminators or Grey Knight Strike Squad), and in the possession of power weapons. I'll go down these points here in a couple of groups based on similarity of answers.

 

B.) Furious Charge, striking faster and harder than 90% of Space Marines -- something Termies can't get.

Somewhat true, but not entirely. The initiative portion can be countered by utilizing an Icon of Slaanesh, which also helps in rounds 2 or more of a protracted combat, whereas Furious Charge only works on the initial round. This'll make a difference when analyzing number of wounds inflicted in protracted fights. In addition, I'm not sure that one point of additional strength trumps a power weapon negating a save... I'll look at that and run some numbers :cuss

 

D.) As Troops, they score and can therefore hold objectives -- something thing Termies can't do.

E.) Can travel in cheap Rhinos -- yet another thing Termies can't do.

F.) Can Sweeping Advance beaten enemies -- that's right, something Termies can't do.

All true, and there is no counter argument to that. Terminators can Deep Strike, which in some circumstances is as useful or moreso than a physical transport, but these are all very valid points to be considered based upon scenario, army composition, playstyle, etc.

 

A.) Three attacks base, four on the charge -- something Termies get only if they go for twin claws with MoK.

C.) Weapon Skill 5 -- something else Termies can't get.

 

EDIT: slightly untrue on the number of attacks... Termies can get 3 attacks base by being Champions, 4 attacks base with the Icon of Khorne, which would give them 5 attacks on the charge, 6 attacks with claws. Granted that's also a very spendy Termie...

 

Alright... *takes out tablet, pen and calculator* Now the fun part (for me, I'm an economics/statistics nerd...)

 

Comparing things in naked units, sans upgrades of any type (because well, I don't know "typical unit configurations" like I do for my Sisters or Inquisition forces) these two are at least easy math points values. Note: this is also discounting things like transports based on the rather large unit sizes. Running numbers against a standard Loyalist Marine, both with and without the charge (to show protracted combat effects from Furious Charge)

 

14 Khorne Beserkers (294 points):

on charge: 56 attacks, 37.3352 hits, 24.8920 wounds, 8.2964 dead Marines (assuming power armor)

2nd round or charged: 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4.6662 dead Marines (assuming power armor)

 

10 Terminators (300 points)

on charge: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, power weapons so 7.5 dead Marines

2nd round or charged: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, power weapons so 5 dead Marines

 

So, what does this mean? Neither "blob" is transportable by a single vehicle so that point is rather moot. Both would be taking incoming fire that I ignored for easier math. As expected, the Khorne Beserkers perform significantly better on the charge with a bonus attack, bonus strength, and bonus initiative that I ignored for easier math. EDIT: I factored in the higher Strength on the results, I just ignored the Initiative for easier math. However, the Terminators really didn't come out that badly, did they? Difference of 0.7964 dead Marines on the charge, and the Terminators (as I expected) performed better when charged or on a subsequent round of combat (assuming no losses). These results would have the same ratio's if I halved the unit size to either 7 Beserkers (heresy, I know) or 5 Terminators.. just divie the dead Marines at the end by 2.

 

So, Beserkers are good, but rely upon getting the charge and upon combat not going into second rounds. Terminators don't really care as much, charging is good, but it doesn't affect them as much as the Beserkers (who lost nearly half their effectiveness by losing the charge) which is good considering you can't charge off a deep strike. This gives a large blob of Terminators deep striking into a flank or a backfield a rather large advantage which Beserkers can't really enjoy. Beserkers are large, loud, and in your face from the get go. They'll be taking a rather large amount of fire to have people avoid having them crash into their lines. All the better to set up a one-two punch by distracting people from a blob of Terminators about to fall in their face by homing in on an Icon from Bikes or Raptors, right? :cuss Oh wait... sorry... those units are never used, what am I thinking :P

 

Not shown is the difference of initiative. This I think is rather huge, however it is something where the Terminators actually can have an advantage in a wierd way. Beserkers beat Marines on the charge, tied otherwise. Terminators are always tied, however you can give them an Icon of Slaanesh and all of a sudden they're beating most anything the loyalists have. It's like a mini-Force Halberd! It's also one of the cheaper marks, and I think given the way that Grey Knights have changed the field, might actually be a better buy than one would think otherwise.

 

EDITS: two small points in itallics above.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Interesting analysis, except you forgot one thing: there is no "Mark of Khorne", it's an Icon of Khorne, which means it's only going to last as long as the guy carrying it does. You'll NEVER lose ATSKNF on a Loyalist Terminator, and when the Chaos Termies break and run on a failed Ld test (something which can be modified by certain things on the field, usually to detriment), and they can't rally back, then you have bog-standard attack Terminators that you actually paid MORE for because of that Icon to get them that additional attack, and they're running pell-mell off the board and won't stop.

Actually, I ignore ATSKNF as a player, because I've never had it. I am a Witch Hunters player who used a lot of Inquisition units. I had Battle Sisters and IST's, along with inducted Guardsmen. Once in a blue moon I'd ally in a Grey Knights unit. So for me, it's not a bit different moving over to other models that don't have ATSKNF. Yes, I'm in the minority on the board here, but meh. The vast majority of armies in 40K don't have ATSKNF. Yes, it sucks when a 300 point unit goes running off the table, but it's no different than losing a 300 point unit to failed armor saves. You move the models off the table, shrug your shoulders, and move on. Adjust your battleplan to the current state of the battlefield on the table, and make the adjustments you need to accomplish the mission objectives. In short, you deal with it. Then again, I'm also 1/8th Finnish, so that's probably showing again...

 

In addition, okay, let's presume the best possible scenario: your Termies vs Loyalist Assault Termies in close combat, where the Chaos Terminator supposedly should shine. You have Champs and Icon of Khorne, they have storm shields that make your power attacks essentially worthless because the guy is holding what amounts to a Tactical Marine in front of him. You'll get your four swings on the charge, maybe five if you're running twin claws, which they'll absorb on 3++. Then they swing back, and you get to take it on the chin at 5++ because you took Icon of Khorne and that does nothing for your Invul Save. You'll lose a lot more bodies than they did, and you're not Fearless even as Champs, so you get the Ld test at negative numbers because, well, unless their dice just absolutely stank then you lost, and let's say you manage to pass it. Now you're locked into combat with a bunch of hammer guys with their shields, and that's presuming there weren't claw guys in there giving it to you at the same time you were giving it to them, which you got to suck at 5++ while they could choose to take your attacks on 3++ shield guys because it's all one unit. If you failed that Ld test, yeah, they can't sweep you, but you also can't rally, so you flee. Even if you win that fight, somehow, they break and run, rally, and come back at you again because you can't sweep them. Rinse, repeat.

This would be why I qualified my original statement of "don't engage Hammernators in close combat" :P They just don't die! That is a matchup that is actually better to throw a horde of things at because it'll be a long drawn out grudge match. I'd throw a large unit of Beserkers at them and let the Hammernators try and take out 15 or 20 models with their whopping 2 attacks each. That's fine, I can wait :cuss 10 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds, means I have several rounds easy of those Hammernators doing not a darn'd thing but being tied up in combat where they can't affect anything else on the board. You don't have to kill every enemy unit to win, you just have to accomplish all the mission objectives.

 

So in essence a Chaos Terminator, whose equipment (with the exception of the reaper autocannon) forces them to be close-in fighters or short-range shooters, is all-in-all less survivable in close combat or at short-range shooting than its Loyalist counterparts, even at their meanest. This is why Chaos Terminators suck compared to the Loyalists: they can't even do the job they're equipped for as well as other units in the Chaos Codex can.

What other unit in the Chaos Codex comes equipped with the ability to deep strike, to soak up artillery fire with a 2+ save, every model comes equipped with a power weapon and at least 2 attacks base, and a 5++ invulnerable save?

 

Terminators are the kings at what they do, and in some ways the only option at what they do. They have attributes which no other model in a Codex has, the difficulty is using them in a situation where their strengths are highlighted. Pick the right tools for the job, and form your plan based on the terrain, army layouts, and what tools you have available. I make a roster and deploy and make a plan based on the table I'm playing on. Someone who only has one plan can't adjust once the game is going. That works for some people, but it doesn't work for me. I like having multiple things I can do to meet mission objectives :cuss

[the jeske]

So for me, it's not a bit different moving over to other models that don't have ATSKNF.

auto rally on faith ?

 

 

 

What other unit in the Chaos Codex comes equipped with the ability to deep strike, to soak up artillery fire with a 2+ save,

oblits . other soakers are rhinos and DPs.

 

 

Pick the right tools for the job, and form your plan based on the terrain, army layouts, and what tools you have available.

what does that even suppose to mean . they dont have transports like loyalists , no frags[unlike loyalists] and when they actualy do reach hth or short range they are weaker[no ATKNF , only +5inv in an edition where melta and other anti tank is spamed] . what you say is not actual tactics or unit use but poetry . technicly even spawns can be "good" if they are used in a proper way . thing is the proper ways are extremly limited for terminators [and non existant for spawn].

 

I'd throw a large unit of Beserkers at them and let the Hammernators try and take out 15 or 20 models with their whopping 2 attacks each.

so we are using 2-3 squads from an army which point wise is half the army at 1500pts to kill 200pts of shields dudes and they better not have 2 HQs inside or a be in a LR [3 zerkers so no csm with melta so only oblits shoting at the LR . LR death not totaly a sure thing]? that is a grand tactic . it can actualy be used against any unit/model . charge/shot with 3-4times the points and kill it [and as I pointed before the killing isnt automatic , if the chaos player doesnt open the LR ....].

 

 

 

Yes, it sucks when a 300 point unit goes running off the table, but it's no different than losing a 300 point unit to failed armor saves

and easier thing to do is . not run 300pts+ units who can die to failed safes . kind of a true for all units in the game not just chaos stuff. units have to be cheap and kill a lot , or be cheap and not die a lot . something that pays a lot to be kind of a killy and rise the chance of stuff dieing[easier hiting from blasts , harder manuvering around terrain. no frags so always hit last . etc] .

 

 

 

These results would have the same ratio's if I halved the unit size to either 7 Beserkers (heresy, I know) or 5 Terminators.. just divie the dead Marines at the end by 2.

untrue . because zerkers in a rhino would probably reach hth[well one of the 2-3 units used at least] a 5 man unit of termis wouldnt and if it was given a LR then it kind of a starts to cost like 2 zerker units[2 targets . 2 scoring units .] and points for that have to come from somewhere . zerkers would be taken as obligatory troops , termis and their LR would have to come from the support section . this means [250pts] no oblits . and again your not counting the fact that chaos termis unlike loyalist ones dont charge out of crusaders , no frags means they hit at i1 in cover . that realy doesnt help the unit ,specialy if they charge something else then a unit of tau or IG.

[Inquisitor Fox]

auto rally on faith ?

So one unit type has a slim chance at auto-rallying assuming I have the Faith Points to spend on it and they aren't needed elsewhere. So it might work, some of the time, maybe. Can't plan on that always occuring, ergo I plan on it never happening and am occasionally pleasantly surprised.

 

oblits . other soakers are rhinos and DPs.

Rhinos can soak up things like Battle Cannon shots and Basilisk shells? I think we have different definitions of what "soak" means :)

 

 

what does that even suppose to mean . they dont have transports like loyalists , no frags[unlike loyalists] and when they actualy do reach hth or short range they are weaker[no ATKNF , only +5inv in an edition where melta and other anti tank is spamed] . what you say is not actual tactics or unit use but poetry . technicly even spawns can be "good" if they are used in a proper way . thing is the proper ways are extremly limited for terminators [and non existant for spawn].

It means exactly what I said. I write up a list at home. I go to play. Find an opponent and a table. Look the table over, determine sides. I then begin to look at the terrain. What avenues of approach are there? Where should I deploy my forces for this particular table? Where should I advance down? What are the corridors of fire? Where are the objectives? You have to build a plan around what is there... games are not played on planet bowling ball.

 

Furthermore the only Loyalist Termies with grenades are Grey Knights, so that's kind of a silly point to bring up to try and disprove something now isn't it? ;) Short range is typically rapid fire and charge range, so once you're in range you're no longer taking enemy fire, ergo the 5+ save is kind of silly to bring up as well. They have the same save every Termie does, and there are more types of Termies than simply ones bearing storm shields.

 

If your army is designed solely on one tactic, and the table simply doesn't allow that tactic to be viable, you're hosed. Being able to adjust to different scenarios, different terrain, different situations allows you to be successful overall. Being a one trick pony does not.

 

so we are using 2-3 squads from an army which point wise is half the army at 1500pts to kill 200pts of shields dudes and they better not have 2 HQs inside or a be in a LR [3 zerkers so no csm with melta so only oblits shoting at the LR . LR death not totaly a sure thing]? that is a grand tactic . it can actualy be used against any unit/model . charge/shot with 3-4times the points and kill it [and as I pointed before the killing isnt automatic , if the chaos player doesnt open the LR ....].

No.. that's one unit to stall one unit. You don't have to kill it, and it doesn't always have to be like points killing like points. You ask yourself "what has to occur for me to accomplish more mission objectives than them?" Kill points is only one instance, probability says you're usually playing an objective game. Which means all you have to do to win is claim 1 objective more than the other guy. Note, this can be as simple as claiming 1 objective and contesting everything else that they're trying to claim.

 

It is not just about kill the opponent, after all. Stalling a unit from being able to move can be just as, if not more so, effective as actually eliminating them.

 

 

 

and easier thing to do is . not run 300pts+ units who can die to failed safes . kind of a true for all units in the game not just chaos stuff. units have to be cheap and kill a lot , or be cheap and not die a lot . something that pays a lot to be kind of a killy and rise the chance of stuff dieing[easier hiting from blasts , harder manuvering around terrain. no frags so always hit last . etc] .

No they don't. A unit doesn't have to be any of those things. Each unit should have a purpose, a reason to be in your list. If it accomplishes that purpose it is a successful unit. Some units exist to supplement other units. Some units have two or three different roles they can play in any particular match-up. As long as the unit accomplished something it's worthwhile. It's about army synergy, not units in vacuum.

 

 

 

untrue . because zerkers in a rhino would probably reach hth[well one of the 2-3 units used at least] a 5 man unit of termis wouldnt and if it was given a LR then it kind of a starts to cost like 2 zerker units[2 targets . 2 scoring units .] and points for that have to come from somewhere . zerkers would be taken as obligatory troops , termis and their LR would have to come from the support section . this means [250pts] no oblits . and again your not counting the fact that chaos termis unlike loyalist ones dont charge out of crusaders , no frags means they hit at i1 in cover . that realy doesnt help the unit ,specialy if they charge something else then a unit of tau or IG.

Still true. Halving all the values will always mathmatically have the ratio be the same. You are now trying to disprove math based on altering assumptions of the equations then trying to tell me that 1+1 no longer equals 2 ;) You have to hold Ceteris Paribus in analysis.

 

All that the numbers show is that approximately 300 points of Beserkers generates about the same number of "kills" overall as 300 points of Terminators. This is not including points spent on transports. This is not including incoming enemy fire. This is not including Force Org slots used. Those are different variables, and each and every instance would require it's own comparison of numbers.

 

Those are valid points to why a choice may or may not be effective for individuals. I've always allowed the fact that Beserkers can ride in a Rhino and Terminators cannot. That is a reason why someone may prefer Beserkers. It does not mean that the unit is always and will always be better in every conceivable scenario or army configuration. There is no one simple "best" answer. There are only lots of different alternatives. Pick the one that works for you and your own playstyle.

[Kol Saresk]

t means exactly what I said. I write up a list at home. I go to play. Find an opponent and a table. Look the table over, determine sides. I then begin to look at the terrain. What avenues of approach are there? Where should I deploy my forces for this particular table? Where should I advance down? What are the corridors of fire? Where are the objectives? You have to build a plan around what is there... games are not played on planet bowling ball.

 

Furthermore the only Loyalist Termies with grenades are Grey Knights, so that's kind of a silly point to bring up to try and disprove something now isn't it? :lol: Short range is typically rapid fire and charge range, so once you're in range you're no longer taking enemy fire, ergo the 5+ save is kind of silly to bring up as well. They have the same save every Termie does, and there are more types of Termies than simply ones bearing storm shields.

 

If your army is designed solely on one tactic, and the table simply doesn't allow that tactic to be viable, you're hosed. Being able to adjust to different scenarios, different terrain, different situations allows you to be successful overall. Being a one trick pony does not.

 

What is this blasphemy you call "strategizing"? How dare you go against the Math Hammer God.