Termies

[totgeboren]

The "1+1=2" argument is really quite misleading when talking about Chaos Terminators, and especially taking into account their lack of frags (loyalist Termies all have access to frags via the Crusader, so it's not just GK termies that have them) and their lack of ATSKNF.

 

Combat results are decided purely by the number of kills you make, and a small Termi unit will make less kills than a big one. The same goes for your enemy. If they have big units, with either a hidden power fist or just a huge number of attacks, they will cause more casualties that if they have small units of the same sort.

 

If your opponent hits first, and you have a small unit of termies, you might lose 2-3 models, meaning you do very little damage in return, and then you flee, never to come back. If you have a big unit, and you get to at least strike with most or all of your models, you will most likely cause more casualties than you receive, meaning your opponent flees (unless they have ATSKNF or fearless).

 

However, you can't transport a big unit, and walking them over the table will mean large losses, so you are stuck with the small unit arriving either on foot, or in a Land Raider, and these small units easily ends up receiving more casualties than they cause in close combat, meaning they run away.

 

Berzerkers on the other hand get rhinos, frags and fearless, whilst causing about the same damage per points. They have none of the drawbacks of Termies, at the same times as they are not really that much squishier if you take the Rhino into account.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Termies, and put a lot of work into mine, but they are lacking the most fundamental tools they need to do the close-combat role properly, at least in comparison with loyalists and with other options in the Chaos codex. This is precisely becuase 1+1=/=2 in w40k. Often, if you have more, you lose basically nothing whilst your opponent loses everything. So if you have 2, and your opponent 1, you will still have 2 and your opponent 0. If you instead have 1 (having half) you will often cause your opponent to lose 0, as long as they have units worth 2.

 

I have tried running a large unit of Termies on foot. If your opponents lacks large blasts with Ap2, they look really intimidating. But they are slow and easily tied up by sacrificial units, or just ignored. A reaper autocannon shooting isn't all that.

 

Small units deep-striking with meltaguns or flamers and a heavy flamer can do a lot of damage on the other hand, and if you often face monsters, the combi-plasmas are really brutal. They also give you a measure of control of the battlefield and they cause a threat everywhere, meaning your opponent can't feel safe with his big guns at the back of the field, shooting our guys like fish in a barrel.

[Kol Saresk]

The "1+1=2" argument is really quite misleading when talking about Chaos Terminators, and especially taking into account their lack of frags (loyalist Termies all have access to frags via the Crusader, so it's not just GK termies that have them) and their lack of ATSKNF.

But wouldn't that mean that if for some weird reason they didn't take the Crusader, that only the GK termies would have them? From what I see of the Math Hammer, it is always determined by one instance. Not necessarily a one in a million instance, but an instance none the less. And like the Inquisitor pointed out, what would you do if you built a MEQ list designed to kill other MEQ lists and then wound up in the Zone Mortalis where only small groups of infantry(i.e. no hordes ever) are viable options because vehicles won't even fit?And you really want to get a game in and that is the only table left. But all you came prepared for was killing Rhinos, Predators and all that. Now you're facing Hammernators and Vanilla Marines and every time you turn the corner, you're going into CC.

[totgeboren]

The "1+1=2" argument is really quite misleading when talking about Chaos Terminators, and especially taking into account their lack of frags (loyalist Termies all have access to frags via the Crusader, so it's not just GK termies that have them) and their lack of ATSKNF.

But wouldn't that mean that if for some weird reason they didn't take the Crusader, that only the GK termies would have them? From what I see of the Math Hammer, it is always determined by one instance. Not necessarily a one in a million instance, but an instance none the less. And like the Inquisitor pointed out, what would you do if you built a MEQ list designed to kill other MEQ lists and then wound up in the Zone Mortalis where only small groups of infantry(i.e. no hordes ever) are viable options because vehicles won't even fit?And you really want to get a game in and that is the only table left. But all you came prepared for was killing Rhinos, Predators and all that. Now you're facing Hammernators and Vanilla Marines and every time you turn the corner, you're going into CC.

 

I am actually building my own spaceship tabletop and really looking forward to using the Zone Mortalis rules! I think terminators will be really good in that setting. However, loyalist terminators will be better, simply because the ATSKNF rule, which is a very powerful rule.

 

But one can really never come prepared for a normal battle, and suddenly realise that it's a Zone Mortalis battle you are gonna fight. It's not something that can be sprung on you, simply because you are not even allowed to use your tanks and units above 10. You can't fight the battle unless you are told and agree in advance that it's gonna be a Zone Mortalis battle. In that setting, Terminators on foot might work very well. They will still be destroyed by Hammernators, but everything is destroyed by them, and not every battle is against marines (I joke of course! :P ).

[Kol Saresk]

So none of y'all go to game stores looking for spontaneous battles? Huh. Kind of seems to take some of the fun out of it. To me at any rate.

[VIIILegionaire.]

So none of y'all go to game stores looking for spontaneous battles? Huh. Kind of seems to take some of the fun out of it. To me at any rate.

 

 

I do as often as I can, but it's gettin harder to find someone. Warmachine is the popular thing at my closest LGS.

[the jeske]

But wouldn't that mean that if for some weird reason they didn't take the Crusader, that only the GK termies would have them?

is that a retorical question ? because there is two ways to run termis either in LR or to run them belial style spaming SS and cyclons [and being troops] . our termis arent troops , dont have good range weapons[not even relentless so plasma is 18" range] and dont have SS. how many tactial marine armies with lets say a hvy flamer do you see in 5th ed in good build?

 

 

And like the Inquisitor pointed out, what would you do if you built a MEQ list designed to kill other MEQ lists and then wound up in the Zone Mortalis where only small groups of infantry(i.e. no hordes ever) are viable options because vehicles won't even fit?

A zone mortalis is something not videly played and if someone would actualy invest in to buying/building a board for it you would not take stuff that doesnt fit to a such a game . also loyalist termis would still be better because of SS and other codex specific buffs[ FnP for BA, better mixed units for SW ,but then again they would probably just run TWC. better buff Hqs like a chaplain or belial which makes them troops.

 

 

everything undead born says is spot on . and explains why out termis dont do well outside of being suicide units.

[the jeske]

So one unit type has a slim chance at auto-rallying assuming I have the Faith Points to spend on it and they aren't needed elsewhere. So it might work, some of the time, maybe. Can't plan on that always occuring, ergo I plan on it never happening and am occasionally pleasantly surprised.

they had it all till WD dex came out . the 4th ed dex was legal longer then the WD dex . more time to being used to not roll Ld + the book helped too.

 

Rhinos can soak up things like Battle Cannon shots and Basilisk shells? I think we have different definitions of what "soak" means

let me check deviation . possible cover +4 [smokes and it is 5th ed] , it still has to glance or pen and then it has to roll what happens . it takes 3 weapons of that class to blow up a rhino and then the carge is still alive . so yeah they soak up dmg just fine for the pts they cost. a lot better then termis which will just get marboed and veteran plasma/melted.

Furthermore the only Loyalist Termies with grenades are Grey Knights, so that's kind of a silly point to bring up to try and disprove something now isn't it?

every loyalist termi has frags because every loyalist will run a crusader for his termis .

 

 

Which means all you have to do to win is claim 1 objective more than the other guy. Note, this can be as simple as claiming 1 objective and contesting everything else that they're trying to claim.

am not going to be taking more objectives when opposing armies are build with better termi class units in mind [ SS/TH termis do exist . GK do exist. good armies have to be ready to deal with those] and am spending points on sub par units , which not only are bad but also detract points from the rest of my list . if I take termis I dont take oblits or I dont take a second DP or I dont take a third troop unit , the points have to come from somewhere . And what happens if I do take the termis I have a chance[lower then with loyalist termis] to do something while my opponent has a bigger chance to stop me from getting to those objectives I need to take to win . So they suck not just in kill points .

 

No they don't. A unit doesn't have to be any of those things. Each unit should have a purpose, a reason to be in your list. If it accomplishes that purpose it is a successful unit. Some units exist to supplement other units. Some units have two or three different roles they can play in any particular match-up. As long as the unit accomplished something it's worthwhile. It's about army synergy, not units in vacuum

ok and other then lowering the number of long range shot I can get per turn[no PotMS on LR . deep strike means 50% turn 2 so at least one turn of not shoting] , how do termis synergize with the rest of chaos armies . Do they help with TEQ ? nope . chaos termis lose to loyalist ones . Do they help with death stars ? no they lower our shoting cant tar pit and cant be made in to a deathstar themselfs. So we could run them in a LR rush instead of zerkers , but why ? zerkers have frags are scoring , termis bring 4-5 dudes with power weapons ? So maybe a moving fire base if hth is not an option . no cyclon one overcost autocannon as weapon[no rending , costs like 2 psycanons] , plasma dont shot for 24-30" because our termis arent relentless . hmm dont seem to be a good weapon platform either . what is left is cheap suicide melta unit and that is how people use them . cheap and somehow effective [still random , but we are used to that with gav chaos].

 

 

All that the numbers show is that approximately 300 points of Beserkers generates about the same number of "kills" overall as 300 points of Terminators. This is not including points spent on transports. This is not including incoming enemy fire. This is not including Force Org slots used. Those are different variables, and each and every instance would require it's own comparison of numbers.

it is untrue based on the fact that there are no 300 pts berzerker squads or 300pts terminator squads. the difference between those two is that 10zerkers[aka the 300pts squad] may actualy reach hth [it is not optimal because 10x3 is 6 dudes thats support units not taken for win more effects] 10 terminator even if actualy take will never reach hth even against armies lacking anti meq fire power [ I dont know nids maybe , but then they would totaly drop doom on that unit . hard to judge without seeing the rest of the build] max would be 7-8 dudes and even then it would mean the termis werent focus fired and didnt have problems with terrain and the opponent actualy did want to charge/get charged[no frags so taking a charge in cover is actualy better unless its a unit very good in hth].

[Kol Saresk]

Furthermore the only Loyalist Termies with grenades are Grey Knights, so that's kind of a silly point to bring up to try and disprove something now isn't it?

every loyalist termi has frags because every loyalist will run a crusader for his termis .

I seem to remember you giving the impression that no one cared for Renegades. I proved that wrong. You then gave the impression that every 3.5 ed Chaos player only played Legion-fluffed warbands. Muskie proved that wrong. So therefore, not every Loyalist takes a Crusader. Especially if they are playing a scenario or on a table that doesn't allow it. Like Combat Patrol, a 500 points game or even a Zone Mortalis or otherwise area restricting board.

 

And like the Inquisitor pointed out, what would you do if you built a MEQ list designed to kill other MEQ lists and then wound up in the Zone Mortalis where only small groups of infantry(i.e. no hordes ever) are viable options because vehicles won't even fit?

A zone mortalis is something not videly played and if someone would actualy invest in to buying/building a board for it you would not take stuff that doesnt fit to a such a game . also loyalist termis would still be better because of SS and other codex specific buffs[ FnP for BA, better mixed units for SW ,but then again they would probably just run TWC. better buff Hqs like a chaplain or belial which makes them troops.

Well you don't need the fancy FW board to play.

We just used city fight terrain on a 3x3 foot table and made sure there was enough room for the Dreads to stomp around.

 

The ZM rules basically force you to only use infantry and walkers.

You're right jeske, it cost alot to use terrain pieces that you already have to make a Zone Mortalis board because it only needs tight spaces, a maze and decent sized table.

[the jeske]

I proved that wrong.

a wise man once said that the "individual is nothing, the individual is a zero". legion players community vs one dude playing his DIY renegade chaper ? no one cares if it is gone . So you proved nothing. the fact that you or some other guy plays a non legion army means nothing , when a much larger community [of buyers] plays legion .

 

proved that wrong. You then gave the impression that every 3.5 ed Chaos player only played Legion-fluffed warbands.

EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE LEGALY TAKEN FROM A CODEX IS AUTOMATICLY FLUFFY. the difference between 3.5 and gav dex is that even if we oversimplify the 3.5 dex it gave us demon bomb builds , infiltration builds , gunlines , mecha and swarm . all viable all with different game play , even among the various legions the game play of lets say an EC infiltration build and a DG one was different . It also gave us some very unique builds like the syren one . What did fluffy and new builds did the gav dex give us ? did it make the weak raptors used more ? no . did it make the overcosted possessed used more ?no . so maybe bikes or termis got viable ? nope again . It gave us nothing . The fact that there are combinations which I couldnt do before [actualy that is wrong . it is not that a chaos player can use oblits or mix pms/zerkers right now . I have to use oblits , because there are no other viable long range support units with good cost and proper weapon load outs] doesnt mean the dex brought anything new . I mean lets look at the csm . without veteran or marks . possible and played builds under 3.5 . 5 dudes with las plas 8 dudes 2 specials fist champ . 5 dudes with plas drive by . gav dex 10 dudes with 2 melta all the time , you can try 10 with a plas/autcannon but 2 specials is better in all match ups.

So the new dex gave us A stupid chaos happy family .B renegades no one wanted C less fluff in the list .

 

 

So therefore, not every Loyalist takes a Crusader.

if they are taking terminators and not playing them for cyclons[double with tank hunter for BT gunline for example or DW] then they are fools . Stupid or bad build armies do not count as a viable option to be counted among "Stuff that it is played" because we may as well start pondering about the effective use of spawns as LoS blockers for a 1ksons slogger list.

 

 

 

Like Combat Patrol, a 500 points game or even a Zone Mortalis or otherwise area restricting board.

and neither those , nor city fight , nor apo , not even the GW own missions are widely played in europe . If they are fine . awesome that it works in the US. but US is not the world . games are still mostly 1500pts [so saying something works at 2000 or more doesnt realy help most people playing] , rulebook missions are still the stuff people play most and FW is still not allowed by most people .

[Kol Saresk]

Like Combat Patrol, a 500 points game or even a Zone Mortalis or otherwise area restricting board.

and neither those , nor city fight , nor apo , not even the GW own missions are widely played in europe . If they are fine . awesome that it works in the US. but US is not the world . games are still mostly 1500pts [so saying something works at 2000 or more doesnt realy help most people playing] , rulebook missions are still the stuff people play most and FW is still not allowed by most people .

And then Europe wouldn't be the world which still means that the majority in Europe is not the totality. So there can still be Loyalists who play Termies without Crusaders.

[Kristoff]

I proved that wrong.

a wise man once said that the "individual is nothing, the individual is a zero". legion players community vs one dude playing his DIY renegade chaper ? no one cares if it is gone . So you proved nothing. the fact that you or some other guy plays a non legion army means nothing , when a much larger community [of buyers] plays legion .

 

He wasn't that wise. It has been proven time and again that it is individuals that create history. Yes, they do so because they are backed by a multitude, but without that individual to start that multitude going, those major events wouldn't have happened. Whenever you look at history, there is always one person, or a very small group, upon whom events revolve. To discount the individual is discounting that keystone of a rock slide or an arch.

 

Like Combat Patrol, a 500 points game or even a Zone Mortalis or otherwise area restricting board.

and neither those , nor city fight , nor apo , not even the GW own missions are widely played in europe . If they are fine . awesome that it works in the US. but US is not the world . games are still mostly 1500pts [so saying something works at 2000 or more doesnt realy help most people playing] , rulebook missions are still the stuff people play most and FW is still not allowed by most people .

And then Europe wouldn't be the world which still means that the majority in Europe is not the totality. So there can still be Loyalists who play Termies without Crusaders.

 

Yeah, happens here all the time. Classic Raiders show up as often as Crusaders, if not more, and I hardly ever see a Redeemer. Games here in the States are usually 1850 for normal tournaments. My LGS has at least 1 tournament a month at 1000 points with oddball FOC requirements (yesterday's was 2-6 Troops, 2-3 FA, 2-3 HS). So it seems your standards, Jeske, are actually a little off of the universal norm.

[Brother Nihm]

Back on topic people, or this thread will be locked.

[Brother Aiwass]

To get this on topic and stop the trolling time, I would try to get a synergic termie list, even sub-pair. I understand what Jeske said, and even if I agree (and I do) I think termies are a great part of the 40k background and they won't be discarded (by me at least).

 

-Khârn

 

-2x termicide squad (3 men): 3x combi-melta, CF

 

-1x terminator squad (8 men): 3x combi-melta, CF, RAC. MoT

 

-2x zerker squad (8 men): champ, PF, rhino

 

that's 1200-ish

 

You can add one more zerker or 3 oblitz to reach the 1500 red line. Sure is not a win-win list, but if you add oblits you get a termie 'heavy' list (for 1500 pts) or you can buy more zerkers or plaguerines. Termicides gives you AT power (although random, due reserves) and the main termie squad is capable of give some light AT firepower or hth as needed and with a nice 4++, while the rest of the army goes hth and/or claiming objectives, or dealing with mech via PF/Khârn.

[totgeboren]

I just remembered what inspired my to try out some larger Terminator squads, and that was a bunch of really well written battlereports by TheSanityAssasdin over at Warseer.

You can find them here.

 

He uses two large squads of terminators, and it works quite well. I must recommend reading the reports even to those who do not want large units of termies. They are really well written, and I at least thoroughly enjoyed reading them!

[minigun762]

-Khârn

 

-2x termicide squad (3 men): 3x combi-melta, CF

 

-1x terminator squad (8 men): 3x combi-melta, CF, RAC. MoT

 

-2x zerker squad (8 men): champ, PF, rhino

 

Interesting list but I would adjust it a bit. Move the chainfists from the 3 man squad to the 8 man. Bump up the 8 man squad to 10, drop the reaper for 2 heavy flamers (since its 10 man now) and swap MoT for MoCU because my giant squad needs to stay on the board. I would probably switch the 10 man combi weapons from melta to plasma, as the 2-3 chainfists will cover heavy armor well enough.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yeah, that would work, but also would change the tactical use of the main terminator unit. You're right in the bump from 8 to 10, but not sure about droping the RAC. Your changes make the unit more close combat oriented and without long range support. I know that spec tends to do better, but I had bad experiencies with hth termies (5 men, 4x lightning claws, 1x CF+HF). Their LR was blowed up by little skimmers tau piranha (or whatever are they called) with melta and then running about 3 turns to reach the lines of firewarriors in a futile intent to kill something. Btw, survived 2-3 IIRC. After that battle, my thought was to give them a RAC next time (were not mine, a friend leaveme use it for the game) so, when I can put my hand in those Space Hulk termies for nice conversion work, I will try.

 

Maybe one RAC and one HF?

[minigun762]

I like the reaper and I really want to use it but I have a difficult time justifying it compared to 5x combi weapons. The best I've come up with is 3 terminators and 1 RAC. Its 115 points so slightly more then normal termicide. You trade burst damage for sustained damage. Assuming you still have enough melta to deal with AV14, I think its a worthwhile option.

 

I haven't tried 2 RAC in a 10 man unit but it is enough firepower to at least threaten most transports and minimize the chances that the opponent will be able to kite your terminators around the board.

 

As far as terminators being HtH/assault based, I don't purposefuly use them that way. Like CSMs, I feel that terminators are short range units (12" or less) but that doesn't always mean assault based. Combi weapons and heavy flamers are perfectly fine options for short range shooting and fist upgrades are there as insurance against walkers or MCs tying up your squad for an extended time.

[Brother Aiwass]

I agree with you about the price and the point effective thought about the combi weapons. Time ago I had in mind (and still have) a unit like the one you describe, with two RACs and refractor fields (aka MoT). That's because I see the terminators a short-mid range unit, between 12"-24". Don't know if that is a misconception for my part, or is being influenced by the image of a termie carrying an assault cannon.

 

I have to say, that being kitted (sp?) is very annoying, and I'd like to avoid situations like that. I want to have some terminators in my army (around 30 or so), and sure, some of them would be armed with RAC. But don't get me wrong, HF are nasty and very handy to have for CC, and that's what gives me hard times when thinking about gear. Choices, choices.

 

Time ago, I asked for some thoughts about a similar topic, and Battle Brother Cosmic Archmage, here on B&C, came with that:

 

Here's how I would do it :

 

Abbadon the Despoiler - 275 points

 

Chaos Terminators x 10 - 400

Icon of Tzeentch

8x Combi-Weapons

2x Heavy Flamer

Powerfist

Chainfist

 

Chaos Terminators x 10 - 400

Icon of Tzeentch

8x Combi-Weapons

2x Heavy Flamer

Powerfist

Chainfist

 

Chaos Terminators x 10 - 400

Icon of Tzeentch

8x Combi-Weapons

2x Heavy Flamer

Powerfist

Chainfist

 

Chaos Space Marines x 5 - 160

Aspiring Champion

Power Fist

Melta Gun

Rhino

 

Chaos Space Marines x 5 - 160

Aspiring Champion

Power Fist

Melta Gun

Rhino

 

1795

 

I don't think it's all that good really, theres always the possibility of Abaddon running away like a little girl with the squad he is with. But imagine the look on your opponent face when he sees you have 30 terminators. It's definitly an army i'd play.

 

A lovely heavy terminator list. My complaint, however, was the lack of RACs, as I see the MoT more in tone with mid-range support (also agree with you about the MoCU, but we can't have all the cake) than for short range. Mostly due pie plates of doom, plasmahell and other nasty stuff. That list, is fixed now in my mind as a long term goal, changing some thing here and there. Mostly add RACs. I guess I can drop 3 combi weapons on each termie squad, but 8 was a nice go to 4x melta 4x plasma. Choices.

 

I have by now, only 4 termies from Black Reach, and are far from me but I hope I can get my babies about september. Meanwhile, I can only especulate and try to learn from my Battle Brothers' experience.

 

Cheers.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The problem with thinking of a Chaos Terminator as a mid-range unit (12-24") is that you don't have Storm Bolters. You have a regular Bolter, which has a significant damage output drop at over 12". A Storm Bolter allows a squad to maintain damage output at range on the move, whereas a regular Bolter does not (unless you're within 12"). To be honest, I kind of ignore a squad of Bolters at any range over 12"... the odds just aren't in their favor.

 

(assuming marines firing at marines at greater than 12") 10 shots at BS4 is 6.6667 hits or 3.3334 wounds for an anticipated loss of a single model in power armor. That's not really a large threat. Now double that output to 6.6667 wounds (either with a Storm Bolter at 24" or a regular Bolter in rapid-fire range) and you're looking at 2 models in power armor down just from bolter fire. Throw in a heavy or special weapon and you're losing 3, perhaps 4 models depending on the setup. This is a much scarier proposition.

 

Let's take a squad with the following (kind of anti-MEQ setup, but pretty doable for Chaos "Tacticals" or sort of doable for Raptors)

 

Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns, 7 Bolters, all at 12" range.

 

5 plasma shots, 3.3333 hits, 2.7777 wounds from plasma

14 bolter shots, 9.3333 hits, 4.6667 wounds, 1.5556 failed power armor saves.

 

This squad, at short range, inflicts about 4.3333 deaths just from shooting at 12". If it were a squad of Raptors with half the "bolt" shots, it'd be 3.5555 deaths.

 

Let's look at this group at more than 12". First, you can't fire the plasma pistol at all, so that fellow is stuck with a bolter. You also only have 2 plasma shots that might actually hit.

 

2 plasma shots, 1.3333 hits, 1.1111 wounds from plasma.

8 bolter shots, 5.3333 hits, 2.6667 wounds, .8889 failed power armor saves

 

So that same "Tactical" squad kills 2 marines at range, about half of it's effectiveness. And that's with two plasma guns!

 

A squad of Chaos Terminators with combi-weapons simply can't put out a large amount of firepower on the move over 12", without RAC's, mostly due to smaller numbers and less number of shots. If you consider the RAC an anti-transport/vehicle weapon (which I think it is really) you're probably better off gearing your non-RAC members to kill enemy infantry and ignoring the fact they can shoot over 12" if they stand still. So gearing them with combi-plasma or melta and ignoring their shooting at greater than 12" and targeting vehicles with your RAC's, then once you're within 12" of a tempting target fire all and see what happens.

 

The real difference is the basic armament. Going from a Storm Bolter to a Bolter or combi-bolter.. even a twin-linked one... well.. it's not pretty for ranged firepower. Can be brutal up close in numbers though, especially backed up by special weapons :)

[Panda_]

The problem with thinking of a Chaos Terminator as a mid-range unit (12-24") is that you don't have Storm Bolters.

That first sentence is true. For the rest, Chaos terminators can only fire over 12" with the RAC if they move (no combi bolters, neither combi plasma).

Yes, They can be brutal up close in numbers though, especially backed up by special weapons and charging :huh:

[minigun762]

Between the lack of storm bolters and the lack of true relentless, our Terminators need to be within rapid fire distance for full effectiveness. Same goes for using combi plasma. Combi melta, combi flamers and heavy flamers have even a shorter effective range. Its important to note however that its still ranged combat and not assault that is the primary purpose.

 

Maximvs: The list you quoted would be fun to play and a good change up from the Chaos standard. If you went with reapers, dropping the bulk of the combi weapons would give you the points as you said. I would only leave combi melta for AV14 as your RAC would cover the plasma niche well enough. The other option is to go with MoCU, which I would strongly consider especially if you're attaching A-man to the unit. The other change I'd make is swap out the CSMs for plague marines with 2x melta guns. Would only cost you 20 points across both squads and give you more firepower and durability for holding objectives. 2x flamers would also work if you can't spare the points.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well. . . . Reapers don't really cover down on plasma. Plasma isn't there to kill tanks; that's what the meltas are for. Plasma's primary purpose is to butcher Space Marines. It's not the S7, its the AP2 that matters -- no armor saves and no FNP. Reapers are there to do as Rifleman Dreads do, ie kill Rhinos at a distance.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That first sentence is true. For the rest, Chaos terminators can only fire over 12" with the RAC if they move (no combi bolters, neither combi plasma).

Yes, They can be brutal up close in numbers though, especially backed up by special weapons and charging :lol:

The numbers above weren't from a unit of Termies, they were from a standard "Tactical" Chaos Marine squad. It was to show the vast difference between a bolter on the move versus a bolter stationary with a known quantity. Then you can extrapolate how worse the situation is for a Terminator unit who has even less bolters than a normal Chaos Marine squad. :lol:

[the jeske]

but you do remember that you will also face IG , DE and necron .

[minigun762]

Well. . . . Reapers don't really cover down on plasma. Plasma isn't there to kill tanks; that's what the meltas are for. Plasma's primary purpose is to butcher Space Marines. It's not the S7, its the AP2 that matters -- no armor saves and no FNP. Reapers are there to do as Rifleman Dreads do, ie kill Rhinos at a distance.

 

Oddly enough when you said that, I realized that when I take plasma its the S7, longer range, and the two (potential) shots that sell me, not the AP2. AP2 is nice but common cover and/or inv saves make it less reliable whereas wounding almost anything on a 2+ is something I can trust. The FnP cancelling is a big bonus though, you are very right about that. Luckily you can sometimes get the same benefit from S7 if the target is T3 (e.g. dark eldar).

 

That is just my view on it though.