Stormshadow Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Picture this unit. Logan Arjac Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Saga of the hunter, lightning claws. Runic Armor. 5x Long fangs: 4 Las cannons. Drop pod. It lands in cover turn one, and starts to blast the side armor of your transports, by turn two the Las cannons will be tank hunters and can even pose a real threat against land raiders. The unit, although expensive, demands that you direct even more points from your army to take it out. How would your army stand against this unit? What would you do to counter it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 How is it much better than MMs? Sure you have range, but Drop Pods don't mishap unless off board edges, and MMs get 2D6 armour pen (better than Tank Hunters) and AP1. As for what I'd do, hide behind a building? Set up as a gunline so that taking my transports out hardly matters, making you come to me. Big lots of points so diverting my force shouldn't be too costly an investment if I had to. Hold many objectives far away from you after dealing with your other scoring units just sit there. Many different ways I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 park a rhino infront of it and unless it explodes it is going to sit there. I can ignore your expensive unit for the cost of 35 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Confusion Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 That unit is way too expensive for what it does. Save points by using multimeltas and drop arjac and the battle leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah, a gross misuse of points. One pie plate -- or in my case, a single round of shooting from a Thunderfire -- and your Long Fangs will be greatly diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Whatever weapons thy have isn’t really the point, they could have missile launchers or heavy bolters for that matter. The point is I saw this unit on a table the other day and was scared witless hen I realized what it was and how it would work. The unit has three multi wound characters to take up small arms fire, and two eternal warriors to handle ID shooting. Thy aren’t stationary so you can’t hide forever, and parking a car in front of them will only work for a turn. Send in your heavy hitters to take them in cc and you will probably just end up killing a Long Fang pack before getting slaughtered by Logan and Arjac. I can’t see how to ignore them ether, the whole point of the unit is to establish a “no fly Zone” between you and your objectives. This unit, although expensive, is the most extreme bully I have seen in 40k jet. Thank you all for supplying thoughts on how to counter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Sending to a combat unit to kill the Long Fangs is all you need to do. Once they're dead that unit has a very small threat range, relying on assault. You can then easily outmanoeuvre them, safe in transports now the lascannons are dead and just claim far flung objectives, kill off other things, come back later to finish off the rest through concentrated firepower. Logan and Arjak are hard, I've played against it before, but also slow. That unit is a lot of points, be grateful your opponent sunk that many points into it, means he's got less of the other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 An on target Vinidicator shot would kill the long fangs (most likely) then its just a case of avoiding the heroes. A quad plasma command squad could probably cause seven - eight plasma wounds too, enough to take out most of the long fangs even with wound allocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 If you managed to get everyone under one plate, which you will not. And don’t roll a single 1, switch you will, they still have a 3+ cover save… but still, I get your meaning. That Vindicator will have a tough time getting into range though. Maybe if you had three… two of them would get smacked by the Las cannons as the pod landed, but the third could probably get a shot of. You could reserve the vindicators to avoid the pod shots but that may be risky as well. I’m thinking row upon row of small arms fire may be the way to go, but that rely is focusing your entire army on one element of your opponents army… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 They're also relying on spreading out and getting cover, and good dice rolls themselves, which they won't get. This thread shows there's so many variables and factors in 40K that you can't just chuck down what you may think is an unbreakable unit and claim its unbeatable in all circumstances, because it isn't. It has strengths, it has weaknesses. You've pointed out the strengths, and many contributors on this thread have pointed out the weaknesses. You can't take things in vacuum in 40K, and "this unit will do this, and that will do that etc" threads serve little purpose to tactical thinking when put out of context. You've pointed out general weaknesses, given examples of what we'd do if our list was against it, what more do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 What's in the rest of the opponent's army? What points level are we playing at? What army am I playing? Am I going first or second? What is the game scenario's objectives? How is the terrain set up on the table? Are there defined fire lanes? Is there plenty of area terrain? As DarkGuard said, there are far too many variables to evaluate a counter to this unit. Every game is different because of the variables inherent int he system. It's not a matter of rock/paper/scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Shiny asks too many questions... The opponent's unit is a large number of points, and likely can be ignored while you focus on the mission (unless the mission is KPs...). If you had to take it out there are an amazing number of ways to do it, depending on which power armor codex you are talking about. Shiny would shoot it up with cover-ignoring ranged weapons (thunderfire) and maybe feed you a biker distraction unit while his main force biked elsewhere for the win. I'd just bum-rush it with a landraider redeemer containing a librarian (avenger) and assault terminators just because I'm crazy about assaulting anything that looks like a deathstar. That would get me 2 attempts to AP3 fry the non-TDA models, and then assault the survivors. If the redeeemer got all the long fangs, then the librarian would null zone while the hammers would do their own thing. The libby and landraider would move on next turn...shooting the pod on the way by.... Any BA player would meltagun and flamer it and then assault it with power-weapon crazy death company or DC dread with talons FTW. Grey Knights would just use the orange monkeys of death, failing that, their other weapons of cheesey deathness. Nurgle players would doo it in a sick, rotten fashion usually involving spittle and pus. Templars would just charge in and then "Tebow" after the game. Nuff said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 An on target Vinidicator shot would kill the long fangs (most likely) then its just a case of avoiding the heroes. A quad plasma command squad could probably cause seven - eight plasma wounds too, enough to take out most of the long fangs even with wound allocation. Only if rapid firing fairy dust. A quad plasma command squad results 4.4 wounds and in 2.2 dead long fangs , Not counting allocating wounds to Arjac with his 3+ invulnerable save , Logan or the wolf guard battle leader mentioned above which would instead result in lost wounds but casualties. The Unit mentioned above is pretty price for what it does and is pretty gimmicky. Multi-meltas on the fangs would make it scarier but even then it has limited usefulness. Any standard deep strike counters deal with this unit and a large chunk of the opponents army. Blocking and screening with cover for tanks (Either through popping smoke , shield of sanguinius or other means) means its unlikely the unit's shooting kills two tanks and more likely kills one on the drop. Factoring in that most armies run cheap transports a lot of points of scary stuff just killed a single rhino/razorback and is now in a vulnerable position and with my turn coming up I don't expect it to live long. Of course my opponents army will also be doing other stuff , like suppressing tanks , pushing midfield etc and I will doing like wise while dealing with their drop pod unit and mitigating its effectiveness. Against armies using units like these , the game is usually won in deployment , if you successful prevent such an expensive unit from impacting on the game/targeting vulnerable parts of your army with your deployment the game is pretty straight forward from there. Grey Knights would just use the orange monkeys of death, failing that, their other weapons of cheesey deathness. And that's before warp quake pushes the drop pod far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 An on target Vinidicator shot would kill the long fangs (most likely) then its just a case of avoiding the heroes.A quad plasma command squad could probably cause seven - eight plasma wounds too, enough to take out most of the long fangs even with wound allocation. Only if rapid firing fairy dust. A quad plasma command squad results 4.4 wounds and in 2.2 dead long fangs , Not counting allocating wounds to Arjac with his 3+ invulnerable save , Logan or the wolf guard battle leader mentioned above which would instead result in lost wounds but casualties. Actually with Saga of the Hunter giving the unit Stealth, their 4+ Cover save becomes 3+ resulting in 1.3 dead Fangs - but otherwise you're spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 An on target Vinidicator shot would kill the long fangs (most likely) then its just a case of avoiding the heroes.A quad plasma command squad could probably cause seven - eight plasma wounds too, enough to take out most of the long fangs even with wound allocation. Only if rapid firing fairy dust. A quad plasma command squad results 4.4 wounds and in 2.2 dead long fangs , Not counting allocating wounds to Arjac with his 3+ invulnerable save , Logan or the wolf guard battle leader mentioned above which would instead result in lost wounds but casualties. Actually with Saga of the Hunter giving the unit Stealth, their 4+ Cover save becomes 3+ resulting in 1.3 dead Fangs - but otherwise you're spot on. Ah my mistake , I wasn't familiar with the Saga of the hunter piece of wargear( probally because I never see it being used! :D) . Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Q:What's in the rest of the opponent's army? What points level are we playing at? A: I am not sure, I think it was a 2000pts game and the other stuff was a Raider, another pod, Terminators, a Rune Priest, and squad s of more WG’s in Power Armor and in every squad there was one with Terminator armor and Cyclone, I’m guessing scouts as well . Q:What army am I playing? Am I going first or second? What is the game scenario's objectives? A: Same as the last 2000pts game you played? How is the terrain set up on the table? Are there defined fire lanes? Is there plenty of area terrain? A: Same as the last 2000pts game you played? Thank you all for supplying your point of view on the matter. Whether you think the unit is good or bad, overpriced ore under whelming, could be better played/equipped in this way ore that, all your thoughts are material for me to form a plan on how to counter this unit. One of the things that irritate me the most is that I have to plan for it in my deployment, making sacrifices in positioning and so on. And afterwards, all my opponent has to do is deploy the Long Fangs as usual, stick Arjac with the terminators instead and do whatever Logan and the WGBL. Making me feel like a complete fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Making me feel like a complete fool. Because there is no fool proof deployment. Or attack for that matter. There are so many variables, let alone dice rolls...you won't be able to say "this deployment will ALWAYS solve ANY pod issues". If there was...I wouldn't make a fool of myself so frequently ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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