Stormshadow Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Picture this unit. Logan Arjac Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Saga of the hunter, lightning claws. Runic Armor. 5x Long fangs: 4 Las cannons. Drop pod. It lands in cover turn one, and starts to blast the side armor of your transports, by turn two the Las cannons will be tank hunters and can even pose a real threat against land raiders. The unit, although expensive, demands that you direct even more points from your army to take it out. How would your army stand against this unit? What would you do to counter it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 It's also an 8 man unit that costs over 800 points and does only one thing. I'd fight it with the 40+ Grey Hunters I could field with those 800 points. And y'know, still have an army left over. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3040701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberto982 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 May be viable for apoc? Smaller points games, its too much of a point sink Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3040764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 It's also an 8 man unit that costs over 800 points and does only one thing. I'd fight it with the 40+ Grey Hunters I could field with those 800 points. And y'know, still have an army left over. DV8 Ditto. To many points to really be viable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3040797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Which will leave what else on the table? Too many expensive eggs in one jet propelled basket. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3040851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
truesonofruss Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I saddly have to agree with everyone else on this. It seems to me that for anything less that IDK a 3k+ game that it is just too many points to sink my teeth into it. it does sounds awesome though...lots of super hard hits in one small group. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I hope you are all correct. I cannot for the life of me understand how to counter this unit. Your opponent places a long fang pack anywhere on the table with a +1 cover save and can shot from turn one. And I am not sure my own death star could get to them without losing to many units on the way to be able to kill them all. And they aren’t stationary, they can move around as they please and detach IC as they feel like it. I just pictured how this unit would come down to establish a point of operation that would cut me off from several objectives and allow the rest of his army to rally around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 But thats it, you dont use a deathstart to counter deathstars, you use your bulk army to kill it, who will be the first to die in this list? will it be the heavy's making the unit not do what you want it to do, you can alocate 3 wounds but than the rest will be getting on the heavy's. to many points in my opinion and it will give you one turn of shooting, turn 2 they will be, dead/ish, in CC or targets have moved out of line of sight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You don't use a deathstar to take out what you have. Just massed shooting from basic troops would do it with this set up. Out of interest, where'd the 1+ cover save come from? Not that it matters because a roll of 1 use always a fail. And things like flamers cancel cover saves. The main problem with expensive deathstar units is that they make your army small and inflexible. Your opponent could effectively just ignore this unit and win or go the opposition route and make it the one thing they take out and win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewi Sant Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 3 Vindicators 24'' away and a maxed out pack of GH with a Wolf Priest and a WG with Power fist and Combi melta will sort this little problem out, and for well under 800 points. I have seen things like this before but the long fangs had multi meltas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Seraphion Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I don't have a clue how your getting Arjac in there as he needs to be attached to a Wolf Guard squad and that is not a wolf guard squad, though I can't remember if he can leave the wolf guard or not so that might be my bad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I don't have a clue how your getting Arjac in there as he needs to be attached to a Wolf Guard squad and that is not a wolf guard squad, though I can't remember if he can leave the wolf guard or not so that might be my bad Being that the OP claims this squad is somewhere over 800 pts, I think it's assumed that it isn't his entire list (a lack of a Troops slot would be a good indication). Also, since Arjac is a Wolf Guard, purchased AS a regular Wolf Guard model and then upgraded, he can be treated like any other Wolf Guard pack leader and become attached to a squad (suffering the rules of not being allowed to leave said adjoined squad because he is NOT an IC). My personal favorite for Arjac is a pack of 6-8 Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest (PA or TDA depending on amount of GH taken) and Arjac tossed in a Drop Pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You don't use a deathstar to take out what you have. Just massed shooting from basic troops would do it with this set up. Out of interest, where'd the 1+ cover save come from? Not that it matters because a roll of 1 use always a fail. And things like flamers cancel cover saves. The main problem with expensive deathstar units is that they make your army small and inflexible. Your opponent could effectively just ignore this unit and win or go the opposition route and make it the one thing they take out and win. Not 1+, +1. Saga of the Hunter gives Stealth, Stealth improves a units Cover Save by 1 - so in most cases the whole unit has a 3+ Cover Save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You don't use a deathstar to take out what you have. Just massed shooting from basic troops would do it with this set up. Out of interest, where'd the 1+ cover save come from? Not that it matters because a roll of 1 use always a fail. And things like flamers cancel cover saves. The main problem with expensive deathstar units is that they make your army small and inflexible. Your opponent could effectively just ignore this unit and win or go the opposition route and make it the one thing they take out and win. Not 1+, +1. Saga of the Hunter gives Stealth, Stealth improves a units Cover Save by 1 - so in most cases the whole unit has a 3+ Cover Save. But that unit wont get hit with heavys, there is no need/use to do that, other than templates that ignore cover Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Oops my error. Still not worth it and not really in keeping with the saga. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Flamers plasma cannons missiles heavy flamers. A good round of rapid fire bolt guns. Blood claw assault with a priest, assault with a WG unit of death. Lots of things counter that. But you have to deal with it right away Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Tarpit units would nullify this unit too. Large cheap Ork mob for example. Guard Hellhounds, Russ's and massed las fire. The size of the unit vs the high cost is that bit too much imho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Heck a Rune Priest with Tempest's Wrath will give this unit some headaches... With normal rolling you will likely cause the unit two wounds, which either have to be given to Arjac and Logan (the only two with Invul Saves), or the unit loses two models from amongst the WGBL and LFs - two wounds forces a Morale check for casualties on this unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 simple way everyone is saying to beat this is massed fire power. its a horrible allocation of points. and i dont see where he would be getting any cover unless you are blowing up the pod first. there isnt anyone there to give them a cover save. a RP nearby maybe, but why not place him in the pod too then you could hammer and jaws also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Heck a Rune Priest with Tempest's Wrath will give this unit some headaches...With normal rolling you will likely cause the unit two wounds, which either have to be given to Arjac and Logan (the only two with Invul Saves), or the unit loses two models from amongst the WGBL and LFs - two wounds forces a Morale check for casualties on this unit. Dangerous Terrain is rolled on a per model basis. You don't roll then allocate; every model that has to take a dangerous terrain test must roll individually. When it comes to identically armed models, it just so happens you can remove from amongst any of that pool (say, Bolter-armed Grey Hunters). In this instance, Logan, the Battle Leader, Arjac, and the Long Fangs would all roll separately and each equally stand a 1/6 chance of suffering a Wound. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Heck a Rune Priest with Tempest's Wrath will give this unit some headaches...With normal rolling you will likely cause the unit two wounds, which either have to be given to Arjac and Logan (the only two with Invul Saves), or the unit loses two models from amongst the WGBL and LFs - two wounds forces a Morale check for casualties on this unit. Dangerous Terrain is rolled on a per model basis. You don't roll then allocate; every model that has to take a dangerous terrain test must roll individually. When it comes to identically armed models, it just so happens you can remove from amongst any of that pool (say, Bolter-armed Grey Hunters). In this instance, Logan, the Battle Leader, Arjac, and the Long Fangs would all roll separately and each equally stand a 1/6 chance of suffering a Wound. DV8 Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply Wound Allocation - just that only two potential wounds would even get a save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 My bad then, misinterpreted your post! :D DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kami Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Another thing to keep in mind... you can kill a 800pt unit like this in one turn, with said 40 grey hunters rapid firing bolters and meltas (let alone plasmaguns). but you can't kill the 800pts worth of hunters and rhinos in one turn at 1500pts. just not possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Heck a Rune Priest with Tempest's Wrath will give this unit some headaches...With normal rolling you will likely cause the unit two wounds, which either have to be given to Arjac and Logan (the only two with Invul Saves), or the unit loses two models from amongst the WGBL and LFs - two wounds forces a Morale check for casualties on this unit. Dangerous Terrain is rolled on a per model basis. You don't roll then allocate; every model that has to take a dangerous terrain test must roll individually. When it comes to identically armed models, it just so happens you can remove from amongst any of that pool (say, Bolter-armed Grey Hunters). In this instance, Logan, the Battle Leader, Arjac, and the Long Fangs would all roll separately and each equally stand a 1/6 chance of suffering a Wound. DV8 Tempest's Wrath doesn't do that. You guys mean MH? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Heck a Rune Priest with Tempest's Wrath will give this unit some headaches...With normal rolling you will likely cause the unit two wounds, which either have to be given to Arjac and Logan (the only two with Invul Saves), or the unit loses two models from amongst the WGBL and LFs - two wounds forces a Morale check for casualties on this unit. Dangerous Terrain is rolled on a per model basis. You don't roll then allocate; every model that has to take a dangerous terrain test must roll individually. When it comes to identically armed models, it just so happens you can remove from amongst any of that pool (say, Bolter-armed Grey Hunters). In this instance, Logan, the Battle Leader, Arjac, and the Long Fangs would all roll separately and each equally stand a 1/6 chance of suffering a Wound. DV8 Tempest's Wrath doesn't do that. You guys mean MH? TW does in deed do that. to deep striking units, jump packs and skimmers. MH makes units hit by it to move as in difficult AND dangerous terrain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/250857-what-do-you-think-of-this-unit/#findComment-3041863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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