How low can the numbers go?

[Deffrolla]

This post is part background summary of the Dragon Guard Chapter (or Custodia Draconis) and part question on feasibility. I'll ask the main question first so that it doesn't get lost in the excitement of my first post.

 

To what number of marines do you think it possible for a Chapter to fall and still recover, and what would be required for that recovery? (If you say 200-300 I'll be very upset and think you lack the ambition to become a proper idiot like me.)

 

My son developed the Dragon Guard, and I have helped him with it over the past decade or so (The Dragon Guard are definitely NOT "Dragony" and do not ride dragons of any name, shape or form, but they 'are' ferocious like dragons. Oh, and they're not red either, they wear green and bone armour and use a lot of shields), We have tried to stay true to existing fluff, though I tend to want to make them all kind and noble, and not nearly vicious or ruthless enough. They do, though, seem to have more flaws than highlights. They are not secretly Chaos, they have no super weapons or super powers, and although they have some ties to the Ordo Xenos they don't do their bidding, and have a few things they are keen to keep hidden from them.

 

We believe that with help from a self-serving Ordo Xenos Conclave and a friendly fellow Chapter (The Lions of Dorn), that it might just be possible to recover from a surviving core of somewhere around 40-60 marines (stop laughing in the back there), many of whom would be terminators from the 1st Company.

 

Briefly the story is that the fleet-based Chapter fought a running battle with a huge Ork Waaagh between Gathrog and the Segmentum Solar, losing all of it's ships and most of it's personnel along the way (through attrition in space battles, and on a couple,of planets). Anyway, the upshot is that the Chapter Master's Battle Barge heroically rammed the ork hulk (warlord's flagship), aiming at one of it's three functioning engines, in a desperate last, and ultimately successful, attempt to delay the hulk until their calls for aid were finally answered by the Navy/Ordo Xenos.

 

(Yes, I know that hulks disappear back into the warp regularly, but either this one doesn't or maybe it is actually a rok. Whatever works best. It's BIG and it's full of orks.)

 

So the majority of the survivors of the Chapter boarded the hulk/rok even as their Battle barge rammed it, and then were involved in a months-long siege situation on the ork hulk itself, simultaneously trying to cleanse the hulk of orks while protecting what gene-seed they had been able to preserve up until that point. They expected to die in the attempt, but managed to kill the ork Warboss, and his successor, and his successor too. The result of this was that around 40 marines survived (terminators and a dreadnaught, apothecaries carrying the Chapter's gene-seed stocks, a techmarine, all led by a young but remarkably smart Chaplain). All of their officers died. A search of the planets in the area covered by their running battle with the ork fleet later turned up a few scouts and battle brothers who had survived elsewhere.

 

Their recovery was close to miraculous, and the majority of them felt that they didn't deserve to have survived because of a never-made clear series of mistakes/hubris etc etc that led them to throw all of their might into such an unnecessary battle of attrition. They felt guilt. Their Chapter Master went down with his ship because it was his fault they were getting wiped out in the first place. Their stubbornness had nearly destroyed them. The Chapter needed rebirth, and the Chaplain was the architect of that birth. They chose to hide their "shameful" past from new recruits, who were taught the history of the chapter only from the point of their great victory over the orks. The new brothers weren't even be told of their lineage (descended from Dorn), and were taught to revere the Emperor (obviously), and after him to revere all of the "good" Primarchs equally. Clean Break, New Start.

 

(Yes, they could work out they were from Dorn from their gene-seed flaws, assuming that Chapters discuss such things amongst themselves, which I am sure they don't).

 

The new recruits had no sense of shame or failure from a past that was a closed book to them, and so to all effects and purposes they developed like a new chapter, though with guidance/pushes from the Ordo Xenos Conclave in return for 1) New ships (from the Segmentum Obscurus Reserve Fleets. Ancient Repulsive Class Grand Cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers, not particularly suited as ships of the Astartes. All with their lance weaponry disabled through bonding with Adeptus Mechanicus seals), and 2) Perhaps some help with their gene-seed shortfall. I am assuming/guessing that an Ordo Xenos Conclave of long standing might be able to retrieve a little of the Chapter's previously tithed gene-seed to help their recovery, if not we'll have to find other ways to drag the chapter up from what should have been a death sentence with such low numbers.

 

The Lions of Dorn, meanwhile, were busy doing the stuff that chapters do and through request or a sense of brotherly love for their fellow chapter offered the Dragon Guard a support slot on their latest tour. The Dragon Guard provided a handy 25-30 terminator backup/big stick option for the Lions of Dorn, and in return gained support, facilities, access to planets where potential recruits might be found (Share and share alike) and a meaningful purpose for the duration. This was the start of a close association between the two chapters that would last for millenia.

 

The Dragon Guard move out on their own after a century or two with their numbers increased to only "seriously low" and take their place as the first defence against the orks of Gathrog (only smarter than how they did it before). The Ordo Xenos Conclave essentially got a trip wire between Gathrog and the Segmentum Solar. They also got to keep the ork hulk/rok and got the Dragon Guard Battle Barge repaired and returned it to them - or at least returned whatever they could salvage of it/from it. The Conclave's aim is to destroy the orks around Gathrog (Yes, a Long Term project indeed) and having a pet Astartes Chapter is just one of the strings to their bow. Naturally the Chapter don't look on their association in quite that way, and certainly are NOT at the beck and call of the Ordo Xenos.

 

They signed a treaty with a Mechanicus forge world which permanently tied a portion of their strength to a subsector rimward from Gathrog (The Xavier Sector) but in return are now able to replace lost equipment and get their ancient ships serviced more easily.

 

The Chapter is fleet based and they have developed their own tactics for boarding enemy ships and defending their own against boarding. Because they had low numbers they utilised surviving failed aspirants and other suitable humans as a trusted and respected shipborne "militia", trained to work in tandem with the space marines in defending the ship AND in boarding. They also regularly train with squads of 6, 7, or 8 and combat squads of 3 or 4 so that they're fighting capacity is optimised for whatever size of squad they may be forced to use in battle.

 

Their primary enemy is going to be orks, of course, but we do have a complex intertwining story of dark secrets, internal strife, treachery, and continuing stubbornness to the point of stupidity that will drag them into conflict with daemons, Chaos Space Marines (the Night Wyrms), and 'traitors' to their own chapter yet not to the Imperium (The Drakengaard). Ooh, a Chapter with a dark secret, what a cliche!!

 

OK, I'll spill it. Ultimately the Dragon Guard, Drakengaard, and Night Wyrms all come from the same source.

 

The Dragon Guard are completely Loyal to Imperium. They want to find and destroy the Night Wyrms, but not at the cost of abandoning their duty to the Imperium. They are at less than half strength, but try to keep this hidden from the Imperium, as they plan to deal with the Drakengaard and Night Wyrms themselves as an internal Chapter matter.

 

The Night Wyrms were the lost 9th Company of the Dragon Guard, who searched for them for 3 millenia, but while this was happening they were turned to Chaos by a nasty old daemon with big plans. His name is Artheudhaecog'gshakq'ppoetl, in case you were wondering. He would like to live permanently in the material universe and be able to travel anywhere in it that he chooses. Because he likes having a Space Marine warband so much he would like to have an entire Chapter. The Dragon Guard would do nicely.

 

The Drakengaard was once half of the Dragon Guard. They are led by the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity. These two and some of their closest officers were slowly influenced by a chaos artefact or daemon weapon which essentially reinforced their stubborn natures until they finally got the better of them (It wasn't ntended to turn them to Chaos when it was allowed to fall into their hands). The Chapter Master eventually succumbed to his anger at the existence of the Night Wyrms and ordered the entire Chapter into the hunt for them. At this point occurred what the Chapter now calls the "Chaplain War" where another high ranking Chaplain declared that if the Chapter abandoned it's duty it would become no better than the Night Wyrms. A brief battle led to the Chapter Master taking those still loyal to him on the hunt for the Night Wyrms (and eventually taking the name Drakengaard) while the rest of the Chapter returned to it's duties, declaring the others traitors to the Chapter, but not going so far as to declare them traitors to the Imperium. They would still like to kill them all though. The Drakengaard strive to keep the split secret.

 

Great. A three way war and all sides pretty much want to keep it hidden from the Imperium. It is, after all, internal Chapter business (!)

 

 

So, opinions on the feasibility of recovery from a catastrophic defeat are welcome. I would be greatly interested in hearing what sort of things might need to be taken into account for such a recovery, and how long it might take.

 

Eager to hear any and all suggestions. It is a ten year project though, and my son's baby, so I don't suppose we will be making too many drastic changes.

 

I am trying to keep the back-story believable but remarkable, so want to know if there is anything that I have suggested that the majority of folks would consider an absolute belief breaker.

 

As you can see I'm a wordy sod, and you can trust me that this is massively cut down from what I have written about this Chapter. Any IA I might one day try to write will likely drive at least a few of you up the wall. It would actually be three connected IAs. Four if you count the Lions of Dorn who now have even bigger problems than the Dragon Guard.

[War Angel]

Something to think about in regards to coming back from 40 marines, is all the people behind the scenes that make the chapter run. We often think of a chapter as 1000 strong, but that's only the fighting force. There's an estimated 5 to 8 hundred more space marines not included in those numbers.

 

So while I think that with time, dedication, and a bit of luck, that 40 marines can bring a chapter back, I'm Currious if any of the non combat elements of you're chapter survived.

[Ecritter]

40 is just way too small a unit to create a chapter from. I'd say a few hundred at least from all I've read is required.

[Deffrolla]

Something to think about in regards to coming back from 40 marines, is all the people behind the scenes that make the chapter run. We often think of a chapter as 1000 strong, but that's only the fighting force. There's an estimated 5 to 8 hundred more space marines not included in those numbers.

 

So while I think that with time, dedication, and a bit of luck, that 40 marines can bring a chapter back, I'm Currious if any of the non combat elements of you're chapter survived.

 

Thanks for the quick response.

 

I feel that with such a desperate boarding action, and the long hard slog following it there is little chance of any of the Chapter's serfs surviving. There probably wouldn't have been time for a second wave of boarding torpedoes to be launched. Some serfs may have survived on the planets that some battles spread to, but I fear that they would number very few.

 

The Dragon Guard, with it's small numbers and reliance on the Lions of Dorn for many years did develop a healthy respect for their Chapter serfs over time. Perhaps part of this was through appreciating what you had had only once it had been lost.

 

In later years the Dragon Guard throw themselves into recruiting not just potential space marines, but humans skilled in other trades or tasks that will support the Chapter. No doubt the Lions of Dorn assigned serfs to the Dragon Guard while it went about recruiting it's own.

 

As for the actual support space marines you never hear about, I imagine some of the survivors on the planets fought over might have been those in a "support role" but once the Chapter was in such peril it would have been every man to the wheel as a combat marine.

[Deffrolla]

40 is just way too small a unit to create a chapter from. I'd say a few hundred at least from all I've read is required.

 

Thanks for responding. I've not actually written the mechanics of this out before. I'll give it a try now.

 

I'm working a base level of 40 to 60 survivors, and I have also heard that a few hundred might be necessary, but I am thinking that the apothecaries that survived were essentially under the protection of the terminators and would have been carrying as much gene-seed in the form of saved progenoids or other genetic material as the Chapter could salvage during their battles. Granted most destroyed ships would mean destroyed gene-seed, but I'd like to think that a reasonable amount was saved, i.e more than merely the progenoids in the 40-60 survivors (which they wouldn't be giving up in a hurry).

 

As a Chapter is expected to send a percentage of it's gene-seed as a tithe to the Mechanicus that basically proves that they must keep stores of genetic material on hand, and it's not stetching the idea too much of we place the major part of that on the Chapter Master's Battle Barge. So the final order of the doomed Chapter Master would have been "Kill the orks. Protect the apothecaries. Save the gene-seed"

 

Thanks again. It's helpful to get my nebulous thoughts down on electronic paper.

[MordentHex]

it would also depend on the chapters Geneseed and how it is treated and handled within your own chapter. Do your battle brothers keep it within themselves until they die, or is it removed after 20-30 years for new space marines to be made? How many apothicaries are left to do the work of making new marines? if your down below a full company of marines, the likely hood of a chapter living for much longer is very low i would think if the above questions are negative.

[War Angel]

Make sure when you write you're IA, or what ever you plan on doing, that you include this. Also keep in mind it will take a long time to get back up to strength.

 

I Personaly feel like you may be making too strong of ties to the second chapter. It almost sounds like they where adopted into the chapter, and the only difference is in name and color. I'm not saying its bad, but perhaps you can draw some line between the two. Somthing to make it seem seperated, perhaps the other chapter gives them a world to use for recruitment instead of them both sharing.

 

Secondly, I don't think the treaty with the mechanics is nessisary. For one, I'm told marines are on the top of the list for getting new gear. Also the mechanius has a vast number of options for keeping things safe. To me, I just think marines would rather have the freedom to go where they want and not be tied down by political bs. If you want you're chapter to have forces there for you're own reasons, I can think of some more realistic reasons. But if that's how you want it done, perhaps expand on it?

 

One final question, can you give some kind of timeline or graph of when these chapter splits happened? You kind of lost me at this point.

 

Thanks, and nice story

[Olis]

I can see you've given this some real thought, brother, to come up with something like this. The story itself does need a little refining but on the whole it's a pretty damn good effort, I'd say - The split chapter sounds a good idea to me, including the renegade element potentially providing all sorts of trouble in the future. :tu:

 

My advice is to add a one in front of the 40-60 number. It's low enough to be a critical problem for an active chapter but not too low as to seem implausible. So, say it's 160-odd brothers, with apothecaries making up the remaining number (I think the last gasp of the Chapter Master ordering the saving of the progenoid glands is a good idea), plus a reasonable amount of chapter serfs. Do bear in mind that chapters can withhold gene-seed tithes for certain reasons - near extinction seems a good enough reason to skip the tithe for a couple of decades. ;)

[Deffrolla]

it would also depend on the chapters Geneseed and how it is treated and handled within your own chapter. Do your battle brothers keep it within themselves until they die, or is it removed after 20-30 years for new space marines to be made? How many apothicaries are left to do the work of making new marines? if your down below a full company of marines, the likely hood of a chapter living for much longer is very low i would think if the above questions are negative.

 

Yeah, hadn't considered whether one or both progenoids are taken from a marine at a specific time. I'd think it might be possible that they give up one at least after it has fully matured. Have to think this through. Interesting. Thanks.

[Deffrolla]

Make sure when you write you're IA, or what ever you plan on doing, that you include this. Also keep in mind it will take a long time to get back up to strength.

 

I Personaly feel like you may be making too strong of ties to the second chapter. It almost sounds like they where adopted into the chapter, and the only difference is in name and color. I'm not saying its bad, but perhaps you can draw some line between the two. Somthing to make it seem seperated, perhaps the other chapter gives them a world to use for recruitment instead of them both sharing.

 

Secondly, I don't think the treaty with the mechanics is nessisary. For one, I'm told marines are on the top of the list for getting new gear. Also the mechanius has a vast number of options for keeping things safe. To me, I just think marines would rather have the freedom to go where they want and not be tied down by political bs. If you want you're chapter to have forces there for you're own reasons, I can think of some more realistic reasons. But if that's how you want it done, perhaps expand on it?

 

One final question, can you give some kind of timeline or graph of when these chapter splits happened? You kind of lost me at this point.

 

Thanks, and nice story

 

I think it's fairly common for Companies from more than one chapter to join a campaign, and this is the picture I have of the support given to the Dragon Guard. They are given leave to accompany the Lions on their campaign(s) and are given certain aid, particularly regarding the development of recruits in return for their support. It's a trade and yes, requires goodwill from the Lions of Dorn. The Dragon Guard would travel with the Lions, and thus be able to function as Space Marines. They would be at liberty to seek out their own recruits is probably a better phrase than "sharing", and would be allowed the use of training facilities, etc etc as long as the Lions had free capacity.

 

The Chapter has long had problems with low numbers, and initially had virtually no hardware to call it's own. Tanks, ships, armour, armouries, all lost. I have them initially in an area of space which is unlikely to be teeming with Forge worlds so I have always seen them as struggling a little to keep up with the Joneses. The treaty with the Mechanicus is recommended by the Ordo Xenos to suit their own plans. They want a strong sector as it borders the ork-held areas they are sworn to destroy (eventually). The pact aims to improve the security and stability of what is a newly developing subsector in a very dangerous part of space which has been under threat of violence between the newly established Mechanicus Forge World and the Administratum Xavier. This also aligns with the Dragon Guard's duty to help protect the Segmentum Solar from the orks around Gathrog and Dregruk, and brings additional benefits to the Dragon Guard in the shape of easily accessed repair facilities, a better flow of materiel into their armouries, etc.

 

 

Dragon Guard Timeline

 

 

 

M35? Founding. Date unknown. Thought to be either an 18th or 19th Founding Chapter.

 

3742905.M36 Chapter almost destroyed fighting ork armada. 'Captures' an ork-piloted hulk/rok. Barely 60 Marines survive.

All written records held by the Chapter are lost.

Later that year Chaplain Tancred is declared Chapter Master by vote of the survivors of the Chapter.

 

906.M36 Chapter provides tactical support to the Lions of Dorn Chapter.

Inquisitor Jastilius of Ordo Xenos Mackan Conclave requisitions ships from Obscuras Reserve Fleets for them

in return for their goodwill and the future possibility of a treaty between the two.

 

909.M36 Having received it's first ships Chapter becomes fleet support to Lions of Dorn 3rd Company.

 

993.M36 Chapter withdraws by mutual agreement from Supporting the Lions of Dorn

and relocates to their chosen area of operations within Segmentum Obscurus.

Mackan Conclave are happy with the choice as it suits their needs nicely. Relations remain cordial with them.

Chapter begins rebuilding itself in earnest, recruiting from local worlds.

 

590-594.M38 Crusade against Empress Berengaria, Daughter of the Gods, alongside the Lions of Dorn.

 

591.M38 Battle of Arsuf.

 

593.M38 Chapter helps Lions of Dorn take forge world of Limousin, working in concert with Imperial Navy.

Leads to eventual defeat of Berengaria.

 

596.M39 9th Company lost somewhere to rimward of Dregruk. Chapter begins 2,400 year search.

They will not replace the 9th Company as it is only lost, not gone.

 

???.M40 Archeron Accords. Chapter agrees to station a permanent garrison at Archeron in Xavier Sector.

Treaty is between Dragon Guard, Mechanicus of Xavier Arsenal, and Administratum Xavier.

Trust remains at a premium between the signatories.

Service at Archeron becomes the final stage of the Chapter's training program for recruits.

 

958.M41 Evidence of 9th Company found.

 

959.M41 7th Company ambushed by 9th which was corrupted and expanded by a daemon to become the Night Wyrms.

Chaplain Antonias and Chapter Master Seare declares search for 9th is now a quest to destroy them.

9th Company will not be rebuilt until the Night Wyrms are destroyed.

 

981.M41 Chaplain War. Chapter Master Seare influenced by chaos artefact. While hunting Night Wyrms leads half of

Chapter into unplanned brief battle with those led by Chaplain Ballak before withdrawing after wresting control of

most of the Chapter vessels in orbit above the planet. Chapter splits. Both sides keep it secret.

 

999.M41 Chapter continues quest to destroy the Night Wyrms and Seare's traitors.

 

 

Unknown to Dragon Guard

 

983.M41 Seare establishes base of operations and to the natives his followers are the Drakengaard.

He eventually takes that name collectively for his marines and their army of natives.

 

999.M41 Drakengaard continue quest to destroy the Night Wyrms.

 

The Future?

 

 

 

Hope this is what you were looking for. The Chaplain War was really a brief battle where things got out of hand. Through the subtle actions of a chaos artefact (even this feels a bit heavy handed to me) the Chapter Master and his closest officers gradually become obsessed by the need to destroy the Night Wyrms. This is all the artefact is designed to do, emphasise or enhance his feelings of hatred towards the Night Wyrms until the natural stubbornness that members of the Dragon Guard experience lead to him losing a bit of perspective. It is a slow and subtle effect which breaks out into action and violence when Chaplain Ballak realises that there is a problem and tries to address it. Though the battle is brief brothers die and a rift is formed that cannot be mended. Seare essentially scarpers with the ships he can grab and then continues his quest to destroy the Night Wyrms, but only after destroying the insidious chaos artefact. He knows that he has damned himself though so the quest remains, as it is all that is left to him.

[Deffrolla]

I can see you've given this some real thought, brother, to come up with something like this. The story itself does need a little refining but on the whole it's a pretty damn good effort, I'd say - The split chapter sounds a good idea to me, including the renegade element potentially providing all sorts of trouble in the future. :D

 

My advice is to add a one in front of the 40-60 number. It's low enough to be a critical problem for an active chapter but not too low as to seem implausible. So, say it's 160-odd brothers, with apothecaries making up the remaining number (I think the last gasp of the Chapter Master ordering the saving of the progenoid glands is a good idea), plus a reasonable amount of chapter serfs. Do bear in mind that chapters can withhold gene-seed tithes for certain reasons - near extinction seems a good enough reason to skip the tithe for a couple of decades. ^_^

 

 

Thanks for your kind comments. I do worry that my lack of a novelists brain makes the motivations I give to our little fellows a bit melodramatic and heavy handed.

 

I suppose that forces split off to chase orks down onto human worlds might have had a better chance of survival than the guys blown to smithereens in space battles, so with a little luck, a long search, and the help of the local Defence Forces we may yet find the total number of survivors rising as you have suggested. It should take a few years to find them all though.

 

I must admit that an no stage did I consider sending the Mechanicus a tithe of geneseed in the aftermath of the disaster, which is known to the Chapter as The Battle of The Seven Suns, by the way. I'm afraid I don't remember what sort of schedule these tithes are supposed to follow. I will consider this an extenuating circumstance :)

 

Thanks for your input, it's very stimulating to get a fresh viewpoint.

[Andrew J]

You have so much its hard to digest and offer points on. Last thing I noticed that I think might be overdone is the Chaplain Wars. I dont think you really need a chaos artifact to make it viable. Space Marines are stubborn and can be hard charging, and you could literally just make it a violent disagreement between factions of your chapter. SMs are not robots and will all think about things differently, this could easily lead to fights and factions in a chapter. I hope that helps.

[Deffrolla]

You have so much its hard to digest and offer points on. Last thing I noticed that I think might be overdone is the Chaplain Wars. I dont think you really need a chaos artifact to make it viable. Space Marines are stubborn and can be hard charging, and you could literally just make it a violent disagreement between factions of your chapter. SMs are not robots and will all think about things differently, this could easily lead to fights and factions in a chapter. I hope that helps.

 

 

I must admit I have thought that this was overdone. Involving an artefact meant opening up a can of worms, and needed a lot of convoluted explanations to explain why the Chapter Master and Chaplain didn't turn into ravening Chaos worshippers.

 

All I really want is for the master of Sanctity and Chapter Master to say "Those treacherous swine. Everybody follow us. Lets go hunt them", and the other Chaplains to say "Now hang on a minute, we still have our duties to perform. We can't ALL go". That is all the conflict really is.

 

I think you're right and that a Chapter whose brothers have a seriously stubborn streak probably would manage to screw up on their own occasionally without the help of flashy props. I had a picture in my head of all the Chaplains in a Chapter being of one mind on all subjects. Guess that is a bit naive. That the two principal protagonists are the top two Chaplains in the Chapter will only mean that they are even more likely to both believe they are utterly right.

 

Will drop the "nasty sword" idea. That will probably make my son happy. I'm not sure he was convinced in the first place, but poor kiddies (heck he's turned 21 now) are easily swayed by horrid, domineering parents.

 

Thanks for your ideas. It's great to let yourself be persuaded to drop a bad idea you've kept alive past it's use-by date.