Tackling Dark Eldar

[Lachdannan]

Hi there,

 

I don't tend to game much, so could use some pointers/tips from people that have that experience. I got a game coming up where I'm playing against Dark Eldar ~1500points and to be honest I've never played them before.

 

I imagine they are fast with their skimmers, but not really sure whether I should be an immobile firebase and castle or go full assault with Land Raiders and Rhino's and get to grips with them. I have no idea what my friend has in the way of units so I'll be pretty much be going in blind.

 

I will be using C:SM, and any pointers or tips would be most appreciated.

[Kingkaneda]

I play C: SM, and a friend of mine fields DE alot. I've faced 3 kinds of 1750 lists:

 

1. Webway portal close combat list

 

2. Mass raiders with wyches

 

3. Mass dark lance/blasters with 2 raiders, 2 venoms and 3 ravagers

 

I lost nearly all of my matches and this is what I fielded @ 1750 :

 

HQ

Lysander

Cassius

 

TROOS

10 scouts(Telion, 8 snipers, ML)

5 Scouts(combimelta, meltabomb, shotguns)

5 scouts(combimelta, meltabomb, shotguns)

 

ELITES

10 Terminators(2 CML's)

 

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder storm(heavy flamer)

Landspeeder storm(heavy flamer)

3 Scout bikes(cluster mines, meltabomb, combi melta)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

3 x predator(Lascannon sponsons, autocannons)

 

My 3 predators usually get stunlocked the whole game when I face his shooty list, Im changing my list to get more mech running(2 dreads next to the 3 preds)

 

 

What you have to watch out for:

 

-All his vehicles are fast assault vehicles, so they can all fly 12 and shoot(ravagers can even shoot ALL their guns after 12 inch). So if you have first turn he can hide behind ruins/buildings and still shoot you first in his turn. Or he can just come from reserves and easiliy shoot you.

 

-With 12 inch flying, 2,5 inch getting out, an average of 3,5 inch fleet, and a charge of 6 he can actually charge 24 inch on average. When he gets lucky he can charge 26,5 inch. His wyches will kill shooters in cc, and easiliy hold cc experts(thx to 4++) in combat. When my terminators get charged, it takes them 3-4 rounds of combat to get out...half dead themselves.

 

-Webway portal is dangerous! Stay away

 

-Hiding in transports=good

 

-When a unit of his kills 1 of your units, or an IC for that matter, they gain a pain token. 1 pain token gives them feel no pain, 2 furious charge, 3 fearless.

 

-Dark lances and blasters lower AV 13-14 to 12! So sucks to be a landraider!

 

-Some of his units have combat drugs, when he is lucky all those guys get feel no pain or reroll to wound.

 

 

SO TO SUMMARIZE:

 

-Stay inside of transports if you can

-Stay outside of charge range from the raiders and webway portals if your units is not in a transport(22-26 inch)

-Shoot them to death, CC sucks against them with C: SM

-flamers can work magic on them, as long as they dont have FnP

-Bolters and stormbolters are great when they are out of cover

-Blowing up transports kills about 1/3 of their men inside

-ALL his vehicles are open topped, so they blow up nicely :D

[MagicMan]

Though likely to elicit a chorus of groans, Twin-Linked Auto-Cannon dreads are pretty nice against DE.

 

 

They're good at taking out their vehicles (Lots of TL shots, and DE vehicles are all pretty light) plus since they're AV 12 Lances don't have any advantage against them.

 

 

Strength 7 can also instant death DE characters due to it being twice their toughness. It also ignores FNP for the same reasons. AP4 is also alright against DE, since not many of their infantry have a better save than 4+.

[DarkGuard]

Added to MagicMan's comment, Null Zone Libbys are also good. Pretty much every Deldar vehicle can take a 5++ save. Null Zone pretty much negates this, 5+ is hard enough to roll once, let alone twice! Also makes models with shadowfields slightly less survivable, although not by much. Did kill an Archon once though when I shot it with a Rifleman with Null Zone on, failed a save on the re-roll and then died of instant death!

 

Also remember, that you out range them initially, they rely on speed and night shields to cut that advantage. If you can get first turn, you should hopefully be able to ground a couple of his transports.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I just want to reiterate the "stay in your transports" thing. Their anti-infantry guns are almost all poisoned, which means they're useless if you've got no living bodies on the table; they can't hope to glance anything like bolters can on rear armor. And once you've been dismounted, keep your distance as much as possible, because the deadliest units the DE have are assault units that will carve up a Tactical Squad like a Thanksgiving turkey in no time flat.

[Master Melta]

Useful tools vs DE

 

Dreads: Their blasters are overpriced guns vs them and if they don't kill them, Dreads wreck shop in hth. (Drop pods are fun here)

 

Las Cannons and missile launchers. These have longer range than most DE weapons.

 

Heavy Flamers: These are great at laying across a couple of DE vehicles and can potentially rip them up.

 

Landspeeder typhoons: Lots of cheap fast firepower that has range on DE units.

 

Tactics:

 

Hit the venoms first. This is where the scariest Anti-infantry fire power is. (Also, hit the trueborn venoms as target number 1.)

 

Next Ravangers: Their most concentrated anti-armor

 

 

DE are equally easy to clean up as Marines are after they are on foot.

 

 

Keep your distance from: Beast Packs...

 

MM

[pyroknight]

Everyone here has good advice, but i wanted to add something to it.

 

One of the DE jet bikes has cluster bombs. They boost past you and bomb one of your infantry units, and frankly it kind of hurts. (I had one guy dropping 25 wounds on me a turn before armor save)

 

They rely on their turbo boost cover save (which is a 3+ I think) to protect them, but flamers, sternguard, thunderfire cannons, and whirlwinds can ignore cover saves. This can make them much easier to kill, since they are only T 4 and have little armor.

[Lachdannan]

Wow a lot of great advice here. Thanks a bunch. Will probably post an army list in the appropriate forum when I've fully digested these great tips.

 

Model wise I can only field a few of your suggestions, but it does mean I need to get some more stuff.

 

Always have known I needed to get the twin-linked autocannons, though my dreadnought at the moment has a twin-linked lascannon and DCCW. Would it be worth me painting up a missle launcher for that arm instead?

 

Transport wise, I have enough rhino's for two of my squads, my third usually comes in drop pod, though looking at the advice, seems range is my friend here, and I'd be wasting a troop choice there via drop pod.

 

Would it be worth having a counter melee unit? In the form of terminators? Or is it better to try and keep them at arms length.

 

Still, great advice. Really appreciate your experience :)

 

EDIT: Got a rough army list posted here.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Would it be worth having a counter melee unit? In the form of terminators? Or is it better to try and keep them at arms length.

 

 

The issue is that Dark Eldar melee units are designed to beat up on whatever they touch. Specifically, Wyches get in-melee-only Invulnerable saves and loads of attacks, and Incubi have fewer but better strength power weapon attacks -- and they both have higher Initiative than 99% of all Space Marines. They also have a higher tactical speed than we do on the tabletop due to the nature of their transports and near-universal Fleet, which means that it requires an extremely, well, perfect tactical set-up for you to hit the unit you want.

 

As a Codex: Space Marines player, my advice is to keep them at arm's length as much as possible. Purposefully engage them in close combat only if A.) they're not Incubi and B.) you have numbers on your side.

 

Units I would advise:

 

1.) Thunderfire Cannon. It'll die easy, but if your opponent is unaware of what it can do -- ie, never fought against it before, which is entirely possible -- it can do all kinds of damage before he wises up and kills it. Wait until you've got an infantry unit in the open and hit 'em with the S6 rounds (which ignore the FnP from their Pain Tokens, by the way). Or, throw Tremor rounds at his Raiders to try and slow them down.

 

2.) Librarian. As was mentioned earlier, Null Zone. DE have lots of I saves, and I saves don't like Null Zone.

 

3.) Assault cannons and autocannons. FnP-stripping Strength, save-stripping AP value, high rate of fire to get around I saves.

[Kingkaneda]

I wouldnt bother with the thunderfire cannon to be honest. I have used it against dark eldar, and youre just giving them easy paintokens. Wyches or incubi with FNP and/or Furious charge are really dangerous! Bolters are strong enough to kill dark eldar out in the open anyway. Assault cannon and autocannon are great on the other hand.

 

I think the TLLC dread you have isnt too bad either. Sure it is only 1 shot, but that shot will autoglance on his raiders and glance on a 2 on his ravagers. And a dreadnought with a DNCCW is actually one of the few things that can beat dark eldar in close combat(just be afraid of beastsmasters with razorwings and grotesques, but they arent as popular as wyches and incubi).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I wouldnt bother with the thunderfire cannon to be honest. I have used it against dark eldar, and youre just giving them easy paintokens. Wyches or incubi with FNP and/or Furious charge are really dangerous! Bolters are strong enough to kill dark eldar out in the open anyway. Assault cannon and autocannon are great on the other hand.

 

I think the TLLC dread you have isnt too bad either. Sure it is only 1 shot, but that shot will autoglance on his raiders and glance on a 2 on his ravagers. And a dreadnought with a DNCCW is actually one of the few things that can beat dark eldar in close combat(just be afraid of beastsmasters with razorwings and grotesques, but they arent as popular as wyches and incubi).

 

Emphasis mine, and you are so wrong. The only way a close combat Dread is worth it against Dark Eldar is if you get him stuck into an Incubi unit, since they can't hurt it. Wyches can take haywire grenades and have a 4+ Invulnerable save against your big two attacks -- enjoy not killing anything in melee while those grenades layer on the hurt.

[Tanhausen]

Quick thoughts (though most of it has already been said)...as a DE player (yes, shameon me...):

 

- If you're out in the open, you're gonna die. When a DE picks up 12 dice...he's shooting his venom ;) 3+4+, usually its 7 wounds on your tacticals, so 2 fall. Rinse and repeat. Usually you face 4 venoms, but I've seen up to 9.

 

- 90% of the weapons are poisoned. Which means it doesn't have strenght. Which means that once you remove the blasts and heat lances...you're safe in your ceramite bunkers.

 

EXCEPT if his wytches have disruption grenades... beware!

 

- Rapid fire his bodies. Except for Grotesques, Wracks and Talos Pain Engine, everything is T3. 3+3+ x 20 shots, with no armour save due to AP5 bolters...sweeeet!

 

- Most of his options move, run and assault. Beware of that.

 

- DE is hard hitting...but soft dying hehe

 

- LD 8 across the board (some 9) is VERY punishing for them

 

- Bein open topped, their vehicles blow up fast. And with T3 and 6+ saves, you usually deliver 20% casualties. Play that to your advantage

 

- Web way portal? Surround it and nobody will be able to get out... only the bikes and jump packs.

 

- Jetbikes? Flamers are your friends. I dont care you turbo-ed...you're gonna burn :)

 

Hope it helps!

[Kingkaneda]

I wouldnt bother with the thunderfire cannon to be honest. I have used it against dark eldar, and youre just giving them easy paintokens. Wyches or incubi with FNP and/or Furious charge are really dangerous! Bolters are strong enough to kill dark eldar out in the open anyway. Assault cannon and autocannon are great on the other hand.

 

I think the TLLC dread you have isnt too bad either. Sure it is only 1 shot, but that shot will autoglance on his raiders and glance on a 2 on his ravagers. And a dreadnought with a DNCCW is actually one of the few things that can beat dark eldar in close combat(just be afraid of beastsmasters with razorwings and grotesques, but they arent as popular as wyches and incubi).

 

Emphasis mine, and you are so wrong. The only way a close combat Dread is worth it against Dark Eldar is if you get him stuck into an Incubi unit, since they can't hurt it. Wyches can take haywire grenades and have a 4+ Invulnerable save against your big two attacks -- enjoy not killing anything in melee while those grenades layer on the hurt.

 

I'm so used to fighitng my friends set up, that I forgot about those haywire grenades. He never takes them. Yeah that would be a bad matchup. Ah well, I guess the good ol rifleman trumps it again :)

[Master Melta]

Dreads are still viable, keep the DCCW and add a heavy flamer.

 

So what if you only kill one wych, they are hitting you on 6s with the grenades and 1 kill to 0 is enough to run those suckas down.

 

I always run my dreads with TLLC/DCCW and they are great and smoking venoms, raiders and ravagers.

[Chengar Qordath]

Sure, haywires only hit on sixes, but when there are ten models throwing grenades at you, they're likely to roll a couple sixes.

 

Plus, even if you do pull off a wound (and with hitting on a 4+ and their 4+ save, plus occasional failed wound roll, that's not a sure thing) they still have to fail their leadership. Not to mention that pulling off a sweeping advance against a unit that has a two initiative advantage is going to take a lot of luck.

[Lachdannan]

Lots of great advice, thanks a bunch!

 

Seems to me I need to stay at arms length, pop the transports with a combination of heavy weapons and Null Zone and then shoot the survivors.

 

In terms of armour I haven't got a great deal, though I have a the parts to make two predators. Would it be worth it to take a dakka Predator and one auto-cannon, lascannon predator, or to take two a auto-cannon, lascannon predator's to pop transports? I thought a dakka predator would be good to waste survivors.

 

Reading what I have, I'll take no assault. And in regards to the dreadnought, the lascannon, DNCCW is the only one I can take bar an Ironclad. I do understand the merits of the twin auto-cannon dread though, but haven't the parts or the time to acquire them.

 

Still thanks a lot for the advice, very useful. I might try and compile it and keep it as a cheat sheet for the game!

[Azerick]

Personally i would go with 2 Dakka preds and forgo the lascannons as the armor is 10 on transports so you can glance on 5's and you get more shots which means you have a better chance of beating the 5++ on his vehicles. As an added bonus you still have all the nice anti infantry. On a side note do not forget the combat drug roll, you might be facing FnP wyches from the start if he gets lucky. Furious Charge ones if he puts Succubi in with them.

[Lachdannan]

Well, had my game, and the advice here proved very useful. The game was a win for me (I lost 8 models in total) and I'll just reiterate some of the advice that helped me.

 

Staying in transports was the best thing. Ever. All his anti-armour stuff was taken out very ealy (turn 1 and 2), and so stayed bunkered and flamed him from transports. Meant he couldn't gain any pain tokens (bar from my devastators) and just milled about.

 

Close combat is a no no. They are so nasty in combat, I lost track of all the stuff that kept happening. Thankfully it was just my exposed devastators that copped it but still, excellent advice to keep them at arms length.

 

Take them down. When you pop that Raider, they die. Period. Generally losing a third of their models and then opened up on the survivors. Definitely made them more manageable and could deal with their speed a lot better.

 

Null Zone. just bunkered my Librarian in a tank and Null Zoned all game. In this game he didn't take any shields for his Raiders, but I can tell that this would have been invaluable.

 

Thanks for the input everyone, turned out to be golden advice and tactics, and thought I'd just add my own at the end. Thanks again.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Any time we can help, brother. For the Emperor!

[DarkGuard]

Sounds like you had a good game, well done!

 

Rather interested why you Null Zoned all game though when you had nothing to Null Zone, could have melted your Libby's brain. :P

 

But looks like a good, solid victory, well done!

[Azerick]

If he was in CC at anytime with Wyches null zone could be pretty useful.

[Lachdannan]

His characters and his one unit that got into combat had invunerable saves, so I kept the Null Zone going. I guess it might have been risky, but in the end thought why not.

[DarkGuard]

Ah if you were in combat it was definitely worth it, I assumed your Devs (which I believe were the only unit in CC) were wiped out in one turn, but I guess it kept going?

[Lachdannan]

They got wiped out in one turn. Then in the next he had a unit of 20 guys, but my dreadnought hit them in c&c, and nullzone helped me kill the character, then they ran off.

[DarkGuard]

Sounds good, and good idea to go for the character over the 20 over guys with your Dread. Did it have a shadowfield?