Thunderwolves

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Dark eldar poisoned weapons have really nerfed TWC. They just can't stand up to that many armor saves.

 

G :D

 

Fortunately, pretty much all of the rest of the Wolf codex seems to be designed specifically to kill Dark Eldar, so no issue there. In fact, they function very well as a distraction unit, as everyone is still scared of them, and they can actually to a fair bit of damage to Dark Eldar if they get close enough.

[Pall Ironbear]

After using them for the first time in a game this week, I would say that when they are used correctly, they are a strong unit. But when you completely :cuss your tactics (which I did), they are a very points expensive way to give up kill points.

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are still great and I'm planning to build a WolfStar army. They were kind over the top when they first came out because nobody knew how to effectively counter them.

 

G :D

[Captain Idaho]

I liked Prospero Burns, but I ultimately didn't like the Space Wolves portrayed in it. I liked Battle of the Fang's Space Wolves a little more. I didn't care much for the Ragnar books, and they don't mesh with what I'm talking about.

 

I don't know how better explain it. For me, my happy medium is somewhere in between Battle of the Fang and Ragnar. Prospero Burns was getting into the territory where 40k starts getting crushed to death by its own melodrama, and only the meeting between Russ and the protagonist brought it back from teetering over the edge.

 

Well that's just it, your prefered interpretation allows for the less serious setting of 40k, where as my tastes prefer the grim dark version of things.

 

Like I said; I like the latest, darker version of Space Wolves where they are comsumate proffessionals who hold their barbarity in check rather than letting it consume them like World Eaters.

[eyeslikethunder]

And yeah, I absolutely hate DCA, and so does Tony Kopach now. :)

Are you talking about when he lost to them in the Adepticon final because they didn't seem to do that much in that game the purifers seemed a bigger part of that loss and his deployment of his Long fangs and a need to be bit more aggressive

 

Dark eldar poisoned weapons have really nerfed TWC. They just can't stand up to that many armor saves.

 

G :lol:

 

I think that Deldar are not quite common enough to be issue plus the strength of the Space wolves against them in general tends to counter balance this. I think GK are much bigger factor given how common they are and their strengths against TWC

[Captain Idaho]

Though in a tournament or random game environment, the threat of Dark Eldar, Grey Knights and other armies with S10 templates is a collaborative, increasing risk that taking them and not playing them well will result in easy death!

 

After all, you're bound to play one of these armies! Or Mephiston who eats Thunder Wolves for breakfast if he goes S10.

[eyeslikethunder]

There are just too many threats to TWC to make them a great Tournament choice

[Torin]

But even so they are still a good distraction for the enemy. Even in tourney they can still be effective depending who you go up againts. Is just how you play them with the terrain available... every army have their own unit to throw up againts TWC.. but we have other unit to go againts what ever they want to throw at our TWC.

[Wolfsbane]

How do the TWC take away from the serious nature of the Space Wolves current portrayal? Would it have been better it TWC were led by an Iron Priest and all the mounts were mechanical? In my opinion it makes sense for my army. I have started an Erik Morkai company, in my mind he is a stalker. Bikes make too much noise to effectively come upon your prey before it is too late. I find the giant wolves are a much better option and in my mind make a better choice.

 

I guess it is rather silly since they are all just really old Space Wolves being ridden by Space Wolves, but they're such pretty models.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

How do the TWC take away from the serious nature of the Space Wolves current portrayal? Would it have been better it TWC were led by an Iron Priest and all the mounts were mechanical? In my opinion it makes sense for my army. I have started an Erik Morkai company, in my mind he is a stalker. Bikes make too much noise to effectively come upon your prey before it is too late. I find the giant wolves are a much better option and in my mind make a better choice.

 

I guess it is rather silly since they are all just really old Space Wolves being ridden by Space Wolves, but they're such pretty models.

 

It pretty much comes down to Bob saying 'I love the fantasy GW has written and it is cool' versus Jim saying 'this fantasy makes sense, and this fantasy is just made up'

 

People are comfortable with dudes going around without helmets, or wearing bright armour, or using swords _CHAIN SWORDS!!!_ as a viable alternative to a mini-rocket propelling rifle, or having GIANT ROBOTS act as well as tanks [Dreadnoughts and Titans] or having soldiers who fight oodles of wars, yet they live to 400 years of age, or any other myriad of pure fantasy, and then they get hung up on something "that wouldn't work in RL" conveniently waving through all those others things that also CLEARLY do not work in RL.

 

Personal taste and a bit of 'I like my fantasy to be silly/daft, not daft/silly' -> cross out as appropriate.

 

Basically. :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

People are not hypocrits for disliking some fantasy over others, which is the implication here.

 

It's all about suspension of disbelief and embedding fantastic aspects of story telling in realistic settings so the audience can allow themselves to get caught up in the story. If you fail to do this, making the audience go "oh that's just too much" then you disconnect the audience from the story.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

People are not hypocrits for disliking some fantasy over others, which is the implication here.

 

It's all about suspension of disbelief and embedding fantastic aspects of story telling in realistic settings so the audience can allow themselves to get caught up in the story. If you fail to do this, making the audience go "oh that's just too much" then you disconnect the audience from the story.

 

Well no, because hypocrisy is to do with moral standards and moral beliefs to which ones-self does not conform to.

 

It is about taste.

I like steak. I don't like.... earwax. That is not hypocritical.

 

But what I have found is that we, human beings, are incredibly subjective and can have our attitudes tinted by the most simple things, this rendering our present judgements to be quite unstable.

 

I didn't like X people, because we didn't have them in my area when I grew up. They were 'weird' even though I'd never met them. But as I grew, and actually interacted with them, found X people to be fine and lovely, and even having some qualities that I wished my people had.

 

I could give oodles of examples where I liked XYZ, simply because me/my friends/my people/my club/whatever. liked it.

 

I didn't like this because Dad didn't like it. I liked that because Dad did like it.

 

Even beyond my teenage years, I am left with in inbuilt preference or disposition for things, simply because of when, where or what order things were presented to me.

 

When I first heard about PP, I thought how silly the game was, the fluff was, the minis were, etc. Now I really look forwards to playing the game.

 

Would people dislike TWC if they had been around since day dot? I think a fraction of them would.

 

That one's suspension of disbelief can be cool with something daft, and something that is just as daft, gets outed as 'silly' isn't hypocritical. But it is contradictory, to my eyes.

 

Had GW been running Tau since the beginning, which is when manga and such came about, you wouldn't hear half the amount of flak given to the blue space men.

 

All the things I have listed all completely defy suspension of disbelief.

Nowhere ever do you see people running bright uniforms and keeping with it - especially when vaguely reliably firearms come about.

There is a reason why we don't have redcoats anymore.

 

embedding fantastic aspects of story telling in realistic settings so the audience can allow themselves to get caught up in the story. A place where people don't understand machines at all, and don't invent anything, just doesn't work. GrimDark doesn't work. It was simply a backlash to how poxy life in the UK was at the time. Had GW taken off a decade before or after, the background would have been very different. They hadn't and haven't come up with a background that can withstand a continuous zooming in, as we love to do in our fluff threads, at all.

That Ultramarines have this model Kingdom, yet no-one thinks to copy it, or that the Ultramarines are the Greatest chapter, yet no-one can ever ape them successfully, just doesn't work.

 

You see within the space of 4000 years, society has continuously one-upped the leading strongmen in various parts around the world. The UK and France have been toppled by the USA, who will be outshone by China, and in turn by India, and then I suppose Africa.

 

If you fail to do this, making the audience go "oh that's just too much" then you disconnect the audience from the story. Really it all depends on how much 'fantasy' you like on your fantasy. :)

 

How can people go 'yeah, helmets are for wimps' or 'swords are as good as guns' or whatever, and then go 'oh, but cavalry is just silly!'?

 

It is ALL silly. It is all over the top. It is all absurd. Its like saying 'oh I don't want the sundae from McDonnies, it is too fattening - I'll just have the supersize McHalf pounder meal.... please'

 

You don't have to like what you don't like, but it is like fishing out carrots from a salad. Then saying 'this doesn't belong in salad.'

 

That you can 'suspend your belief' for X and not Y is completely your choice, but they, X & Y, are both 'fantastic' elements. Saying one is 'too hard to suspend belief for' when if you ask a layperson which of these things doesn't fit, they'd say "well, they're all silly, aren't they?" is contradictory from where I am sitting. But you are free to enjoy whatever flavour of ice cream you want. Not everyone likes all the flavours, I guess.

 

But to say one particular flavour 'is beyond suspension of belief' yet you've already said 'rainbow fantasia' and 'sunflower surprise' and 'warm fuzzies' are all plausible, just seems weird - to me at least.

 

:)

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on things - I have reconciled myself to the oddities of 40K and GW.

 

What is hard to believe is that someone of hero status could not only go into the Warp, but then best and ridicule a demi-god not just in combat, but by scribbling something on his heart.

They have undone power levels of things that should have practically no chance of beating, let alone humiliating, yet alone not killing.

 

I mean, if the hero could write on the demi-gods heart, why didn't he think to destroy the heart, thereby killing the demi-god?

Or take it with him, so the demi-god couldn't get a clean bill of health the next time he visited the doctor, and therefore wouldn't have permission to fight anyone anymore.

 

Saying a grot could beat a Titan is implausble. That is a powa! level thing.

Cavalry have always been in 40K, fantastic or mundane. This is not a powa! level thing, even if in RL they would get shot up by machine guns.

 

Those are my thoughts on the state of play, anyway :)

[Captain Idaho]

In this context, hypocrite is applicable because it's a principle we say we hold ourselves too yet decree another aspect of that principle.

 

But that's besides the point; it's still not the point.

 

Saying it's all silly isn't true, depending on perspective. Fantasy novelists and film writers always draw a line between over the top and acceptable. What is over the top becomes "silly".

 

Look at the Dune series. Massively fantastic yet very gritty and down to earth, so audiences are left feeling "this could happen".

 

Personal preference does come into it, but I would point to the amount of people who like and dislike Thunderwolves as a concept as a reason why their inclusion is over the top. Sure there are people who dislike the idea of Chainswords in 40K and don't like reading about them in stories, but they are a minority of 40K fans - the rest of us either embrace it or just ignore it. Not quite the same with Thunderwolves; more people dislike them as a concept than Chainsword.

 

Anyway, I dislike them simply because it's lazy writing more than anything. Too obvious. That could be because of the literature snob in me though!

 

To be honest, I can get on board with the idea of them if done well, though I must confess the snob in me does hold me back a little. ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

In this context, hypocrite is applicable because it's a principle we say we hold ourselves too yet decree another aspect of that principle.

 

But that's besides the point; it's still not the point.

 

Saying it's all silly isn't true, depending on perspective. Fantasy novelists and film writers always draw a line between over the top and acceptable. What is over the top becomes "silly".

 

Look at the Dune series. Massively fantastic yet very gritty and down to earth, so audiences are left feeling "this could happen".

 

Personal preference does come into it, but I would point to the amount of people who like and dislike Thunderwolves as a concept as a reason why their inclusion is over the top. Sure there are people who dislike the idea of Chainswords in 40K and don't like reading about them in stories, but they are a minority of 40K fans - the rest of us either embrace it or just ignore it. Not quite the same with Thunderwolves; more people dislike them as a concept than Chainsword.

 

Anyway, I dislike them simply because it's lazy writing more than anything. Too obvious.

 

But are chainswords seen as okay simply because they have been around since day dot?

 

I remember thinking, why wouldn't Assault Marines just use two pistols way back in the early '90s, as a powersword = lightsabre [obviously, and so are cool and must work] and a chainsword just wouldn't work that well.

So if an early teen could think 'this is silly' back in the day, how does that make a chainsword any more or less silly 20 years later?

 

I guess there is a neat jargon'y word for it, but chainswords are taken as legit simply because of having been around for so long. People who weren't there at the beginning just take whatever is given to them as 'the status quo' and naughty questioning types like myself just get used to it/get over it/embrace it as their consistent inclusion normalises them.

 

A bit like Prince Charles and CPB. If anyone had suggested she could be Queen however many years ago, there would have been outrage. But because PC and CPB have hung around for so long, it's contentiousness has faded in flavour, like an old sweet, or piece of gum that you'd left in the packet for a year.

 

Likewise, I feel things like TWC and Tau are only an issue for people 'now'. In another 10-20 years time, assuming things are still going, they'll be part of the furniture.

 

And I guess that is what I am trying to say - is there really something fundamentally 'wrong' with whatever fantasy stuff GW gives us, or is it simply because, like the examples I gave from my life, we are prejudiced and will naturally dislike whatever is new and 'disrupts' the milieu -> given our pov at the time of the introduction.

 

Had they been there from day dot, the frustration would have been much smaller and would have died out by now.

 

Anyway, did I mention that I won the TWC from the Space Wolves blog raffle? ;)

I might even call one Idaho, just for you ;)

/I troll, jk.

[Captain Idaho]

We'll just have to both disagree and leave it I suppose, and continue the discussion in 10 years time to see if they are accepted more readily than they are now! ;)

 

Going forward with the discussion, I'd like to know if anyone who is going to the ToS this weekend can let us know how any Thunderwolves get on in the tournament? In fact, any tournament experience someone might want to share would be interesting?

[eyeslikethunder]

I saw that Max Schuchard did well last year at adepticon losing only to Tony K. Although it was reported as tony's hardest game.

 

He had gone the whole hog with TWC at 365 pts 5 TWC 3 SS + TWL 260 pts so a big WolfStar

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Well I am taking my Wolfstar to a LGS tourney tomorrow. There are usually ten to fifteen people there, I'll let you all know how it goes.

 

As somebody who walks the thin line between fluff and competitive, I still find uses for the TWC. It's not hard for me to visualize massive wolves living and breading on a distant planted in the far, far future.

 

Sure Deldars poison weapons kill em good, but is that enough of a reason to not take them?? It's like saying template weapons kill orks, so don't take any of those (the orks...)!! Or Grey Knights kill Daemons... If there was not a unit to counter act TWC, then everybody would be playing them (I don't see why there not already??!! ;) ) in every tournament around the world. Dancin' in the streets.

 

End of Line

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

am i the only one that found a ultramarines debating a black templar in the space wolves subforum slightly amusing?

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

am i the only one that found a ultramarines debating a black templar in the space wolves subforum slightly amusing?

 

WLK

 

Yes.

 

And that is because you powa! game someone else from embracing their fully Salamanderness in Apoc.

 

Just saying. :tu:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

am i the only one that found a ultramarines debating a black templar in the space wolves subforum slightly amusing?

 

WLK

 

Yes.

 

And that is because you powa! game someone else from embracing their fully Salamanderness in Apoc.

 

Just saying. :)

 

HEY! WHAT HAPPENS IN THE APOC SUBFORUM STAYS IN THE APOC SUBFORM!!!

 

WLK

[dswanick]

HEY! WHAT HAPPENS IN THE APOC SUBFORUM STAYS IN THE APOC SUBFORM!!!

 

WLK

Speaking of Thunderwolves and Apoc -

1 Wolf Lord in Power Armour, 265 pts (Unit Type: Cavalry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount; Bolt Pistol; Storm Shield x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Eternal Warrior; Independent Character; Rending in CC only; Saga of the Bear)

2 Fenrisian Wolf (Unit Type: Beasts; Vicious claws and fangs; Counter-attack)

1 Space Marine Specific Assets, 0 pts (Legion Relic)

 

Wolf Lord in Power Armour 6 | 5 | 5(10) | 5 | 3 | 10/11 | 5 | 10 | 2+/3(i)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

HEY! WHAT HAPPENS IN THE APOC SUBFORUM STAYS IN THE APOC SUBFORM!!!

 

WLK

 

I confess, I certainly did lol.

:lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

HEY! WHAT HAPPENS IN THE APOC SUBFORUM STAYS IN THE APOC SUBFORM!!!

 

WLK

Speaking of Thunderwolves and Apoc -

1 Wolf Lord in Power Armour, 265 pts (Unit Type: Cavalry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount; Bolt Pistol; Storm Shield x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Eternal Warrior; Independent Character; Rending in CC only; Saga of the Bear)

2 Fenrisian Wolf (Unit Type: Beasts; Vicious claws and fangs; Counter-attack)

1 Space Marine Specific Assets, 0 pts (Legion Relic)

 

Wolf Lord in Power Armour 6 | 5 | 5(10) | 5 | 3 | 10/11 | 5 | 10 | 2+/3(i)

 

I've done this twice, once as you described and once with Saga of the Warrior-Born.

 

with bear, i flank marched him and he went super heavy hunting. he went through 3-4 super heavy tanks with ease and then got bogged down in guardsmen, preventing him from sweeping through the entire back field.

 

the 2nd time, with Warrior-Borne, i fleeted him right into the middle of the enemy army and laughed. it was crazy stupid. i wish i kept track of his kill count, but he killed more orcs, guardsmen and chaos marine than i ever thought possible.

 

WLK

[Wolfsbane]

We'll just have to both disagree and leave it I suppose, and continue the discussion in 10 years time to see if they are accepted more readily than they are now! :)

 

Going forward with the discussion, I'd like to know if anyone who is going to the ToS this weekend can let us know how any Thunderwolves get on in the tournament? In fact, any tournament experience someone might want to share would be interesting?

 

 

Two things:

 

1. As for immersion with my game, I find my thunderwolves to fit in perfectly for my company. I am assembling a great company based on the short paragraph in the codex on Erik Morkai. He has a large amount of wolf scouts but also is vicious and bloody. I see him as a stalker, he uses disruptive tactics to break his enemy's lines, and then encircle the weaker parts much like how a wolf pack truly hunts. In my mind Erik is more than willing to use his Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (especially the pups) to bay his opponent's into the trap. Bikes make too much noise, blood claws make too much noise. How does one strike quickly in a bloody and vicious manner? Mount his senior wolf guard on giant genetically altered beasts that can stalk into position quietly like their smaller brethren. As the trap is sprung, the wolves rush forward from the flanks, scouts from behind, and the hunters/claws clash from the front. Just my take on it for my army.

 

2. On the matter of facing off against them. I recently went to a 1000 point tournament (supposedly friendly) and fought a double wolf lord, three TWC list. He had 2 small grey hunter squads to get his requirements. It was a very cheesy list, especially since I don't know why two wolf lords were in such a small battle. I have a rather shooty counter-attack list, so I faired well. Two Grey Hunter packs and a rune priest were killed, but a valiant ML long fang pack charged in and killed the last lord with a single wound.

 

They're tough, but I don't think they are unbeatable. If he only had one lord and maybe an elite or heavy weapon choice, aka a more balanced "friendly" list, I would have really enjoyed the game. With 520 points in two HQ units for a "friendly" local tournament for new players it was a pretty dick move in my opinion. He also had a "count as" Khorne list, so they were all juggernauts.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Anyway, did I mention that I won the TWC from the Space Wolves blog raffle?

 

Just don't stick any Black Templars on top of them! ;)

 

 

and....

Captain Idaho.... Tsk tsk tsk. I thought you were coming around on this. You sure Guilliman didn't write a treatise on Thundewolves in the Codex? Did his descendents rip and crumple that page out of the Tome?? ;)