Crazy idea

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've begun to consider that paladins just don't really work out.

 

For 2k I can field 30 standard GKT, a brother captain and a grand master.

 

A Draigo wing is half that.

 

Sure, pallies are 2 wounds, fnp and have some wound allocation fun. However most things that will one shot a termie will insta-kill a paladin and the meta-game is full of str 8 AP2 boomsticks now.

 

Since I dropped the paladins I've been doing much better, especialy with combat squadding and putting out 6 5 man squads withj 6 servo skulls strung around the board to maximise my drop zones.

 

Anybody else not happy with paladins?

[Gentlemanloser]

Not at all. :P

 

If I'm going to field 10 GKT, I get *more* by fileding 5 Pallies + 5 others (for the same cost) instead.

 

I only ever consider using GKT for either Ghost Knights, or if I have the points left over and can squeeze 5 GKT in.

[number6]

I'm of the same opinion, BCK. I use the occasional pallie unit for funsies, but there is way too much melta in the game to warrant taking pallies as anything other than a lark. They really aren't that hard to kill. A 15 pt tax for an extra wound is just not worth it. You need pallies to use both of their wounds to be worth their points. The whole point is that they should be tough as nails to kill. The reality (in my neck of the woods, anyway) is that they are hardly any harder to kill than any other terminator. Heck, the usual 3 long fangs I see across the table from me get past enough 2+ saves to kill them dead quite nicely.

 

There's the other issue of killiness. They should also be way killier for their cost than they actually are. I6 force weapons is pretty darn killy, but normal GKTs get 'em, too, and I can generate more attacks on the same number of points than I can with pallies.

 

Meh.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just for completeness, here's why I prefer 5 Pallies to 10 GKT.

 

10 GKT, 2 Psycannons: 450 points.

 

5 Pallies, 2 Psycannons: 315 points

5 Puri's, 2 Psycannons: 140 points

 

5 points over, and I get 5 more wounds and 2 extra Psycannons.

 

If scoring is such an issue, sub in Strikes, use GKGM, basically tailor your options for your own list.

 

But I find 10 GK *too expensive*, when I can take 5 Pallies and more, for thier cost.

[Chengar Qordath]

If scoring is such an issue, sub in Strikes, use GKGM, basically tailor your options for your own list.

Not to mention the option of bringing in Crowe or Draigo to turn Paladins/Purifies into Troops.

[Gentlemanloser]

That too! ;)

[Murcielago]

I have to agree that pallies are fun, but really aren't worth the cost to me. If you take pallies, your opponent will throw literally EVERYTHING at them in hopes of bringing them down. In one game (team game), my pallies and grand master were hit by lascannons, cyclone missiles, dark lances, 4 razorwing missiles, and almost a vindicator shell (luckily it scattered off them). After 2 turns of shooting, I had only 2 pallies left next to my grand master, which then charged a unit of TH/SS termies and get punched in the face (I won combat with a single pally alive and both the enemy and my squad dead) :D

 

So yes, regular termies for me. They take up a troop choice (leaving me more tactical decisions for my grand strategy rolls), and don't attract quite as much firepower as other things, but can also STILL wreck faces in combat.

[Gentlemanloser]

How was that a bad thing?

 

All of that could have been going into the rest of your army instead.

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself... but concentrated fire onto a few units makes more of a negative impact to your plans than fire spread out onesy-twosy against an entire army. By having multiple units of standard Terminators.. you force your opponent to dilute his firepower and possibly make target priority planning errors... more opportunity for you to pounce on his mistakes.

 

Yes, you can get more wounds without losing Storm Bolter shots by taking Purifiers AND Paladins... but that's two Elites slots (or 1 Elites and 1 Troops depending on HQ setup) which can get really crowded unless you build your entire list around that trick. It's a trade off that sometimes can be worth it depending on situation or personal playstyle. It's not a bad choice... it's just not the only choice. We should be thankful we have a book that has multiple solutions and approaches and I sincerely hope every army eventually gets a treatment this nice.

[Gentlemanloser]

Pallies and Purgs. Or Pallies and Strikes. Or interceptors. :D

 

Whatever slots you have free, and it's not like we reutinely run out of slots, due to our cost.

 

You get more wounds, more attacks and more Psycannons for swapping those 10 GKT. I really don't see the point in keeping them, unless it's your theme.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eh, Paladins and GKT scale differently.

 

For example, in games of 1,500 or smaller, a Paladin combat squad is much easier to squeeze into a standard list (usually as bodyguard to my Librarian), and they are much more durable that Purifiers (it's hard to field multiple Purifier squads, so the one squad you do bring can get focused down a bit too easily).

 

When you get to 2k, GKT blob (do not take 5-man combat squads, they suck) starts to be better. By that point, hard counters like melta are much more prevelant, and the Paladin combat squad is able to be swamped more easily. I still wouldn't take more than 1-2 Terminator blobs, they are expensive, but they have far more attacks and they can't be wiped out as easily (wound can be stacked and allocated out more easily when you have more individual models).

 

At 2.5k, there is a convincing argument for PaladinStar. If you need to, you can always combat squad (highly recommend you do, having multiple combat threats is preferable, as the PaladinStar tends to be slow and more easily isolated). By taking the single giant blob, you get essentially two combat units, or a single blob that just refuses to die and can multi-assault a vehicle/chaff infantry wall (ie smashing the Guard blockade).

 

Purifiers aren't really comparable to either, they're more mobile (Rhinos, full squads can fit in Stormravens if you desire), they are a hellishly efficient fire support unit once in the mid-field (hence the need for a transport of some kind), and they are pretty much immune to tarpits (Cleansing Flame and their own default combat ability is scary to all but dedicated combat specialists, like Stormhammers). They are still like Sternguard though, glorified Tac Marines, so shooting them to death works still. Hence why for your main threat, a Paladin or GKT unit is preferable, Purifiers are only really supportive of that (they can't be assault units in their own right really).

 

I need to reiterate that Purgators are complete trash, except in Trogdor loadout (Justicar hammer+4 incinerators+Rhino). They cannot stand in for real Purifiers in the fire support role, as they are exactly the same points but fundamentally worse in every measurable way. And they compete with PsyDreads and Dreadknights for army investment and Force Org slots.

[Drachnon]

I've run a 1500 GKT list a few times and it worked out pretty well. At 1500 I run 2x10 GKT a GKGM and 2 psyflemen dreads. It's not as competitive as some other lists I tried out but it's pretty fun to play and gives most opponents a decent chance. Though my friend who plays IG with lots of basilisk doesn't seem to like the 2+ saves all that much.

[Aidoneus]

My big thing is that GKT are Scoring, and Paladins aren't. Granted, there are ways to make Paladins Scoring (i.e. Draigo or any other GM). The problem is that those HQs are very expensive too, which adds to the cost of the already-expensive Paladins.

 

My favorite HQ is the OM Inq with termy armour, daemon hammer, and psycannon. He's easily the best 80pts I spend in my list. I find GMs to be very expensive (especially with a psycannon) and not that useful (especially without a psycannon). I don't run enough dedicated assault units to justify an OX grenade caddy. And while the libbie has been useful, I still find it hard to justify taking him over another unit of GKs.

 

Anyway, my point is that I want Scoring units, especially if they come in termy armour, and so can stick around for a while. I like that I can take my dirt-cheap HQ, a unit or two of Scoring GKT, and still have tons of points left for lots of other goodies.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

My local gaming group runs 2k games so I've done a bit of theory work.

 

I can have two squads of Paladins in a draigowing without much else.

 

I can have 30 GKT's, a GM and a BC.

 

My local metagame is havy on the str8 ap2 so I think I'll go with the normal termies for now.

[Toasterfree]

My local gaming group runs 2k games so I've done a bit of theory work.

 

I can have two squads of Paladins in a draigowing without much else.

 

I can have 30 GKT's, a GM and a BC.

 

My local metagame is havy on the str8 ap2 so I think I'll go with the normal termies for now.

something that i have maintained is that sure pallies are "awesome" but s8 ap2 still kills them just like a normal termie. so the difference in an instant death over non isnt there. the extra WS doesnt make up for it.

 

now if splash in a unit on top of all the others you arent sinking your army into one unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't like running just Pallies. Or running Death Stars.

 

But then I don't like full TDA lists for GK, I actaully don't like GKT. :)

 

What I do advocate, is swapping out 10 GKT for 5 Pallies plus something else freed up by the points.

 

The comparison shouldn't be Pallie Deathstar versus GKT horde. But rather what you can get for those 450 (odd) points. :D

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I don't like running just Pallies. Or running Death Stars.

 

But then I don't like full TDA lists for GK, I actaully don't like GKT. :lol:

 

What I do advocate, is swapping out 10 GKT for 5 Pallies plus something else freed up by the points.

 

The comparison shouldn't be Pallie Deathstar versus GKT horde. But rather what you can get for those 450 (odd) points. ;)

 

I'm the opposite :)

 

I don't like GKPA, hate them with a passion

[number6]

My big thing is that GKT are Scoring, and Paladins aren't. Granted, there are ways to make Paladins Scoring (i.e. Draigo or any other GM). The problem is that those HQs are very expensive too, which adds to the cost of the already-expensive Paladins.

 

My favorite HQ is the OM Inq with termy armour, daemon hammer, and psycannon. He's easily the best 80pts I spend in my list. I find GMs to be very expensive (especially with a psycannon) and not that useful (especially without a psycannon). I don't run enough dedicated assault units to justify an OX grenade caddy. And while the libbie has been useful, I still find it hard to justify taking him over another unit of GKs.

 

Anyway, my point is that I want Scoring units, especially if they come in termy armour, and so can stick around for a while. I like that I can take my dirt-cheap HQ, a unit or two of Scoring GKT, and still have tons of points left for lots of other goodies.

A gamer after my own heart. :rolleyes:

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't like GKPA, hate them with a passion

 

I used to be exactly the same. Tried to run as much TDA as I could, loved DW and Loganwing, and feverently hoped we'd be able to get scoring GKT (if not troops!).

 

But now they're here, they're outperformed by Strikes, and unlike the old 'lords of the dance' PAGK metals, I *love* the new plastic GKs.

 

Love them!

 

:rolleyes:

[the jeske]

but if your taking an inq as hq you may as well take cortez and do a better gunline list.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can pretend the OM Inq with TDA and a Psycannon is really a GK HQ. :rolleyes:

[Aidoneus]

but if your taking an inq as hq you may as well take cortez and do a better gunline list.

Not true. Coteaz doesn't have a psycannon and doesn't have TDA (which means he can't deep-strike). Coteaz has a lot of advantages, and tons of henchmen is definitely one of those advantages, but that doesn't mean he is strictly better. I play an all-deep-striking list (except for my 2 Psyflemen), so I need an HQ that fits in with that playstyle.

[Toasterfree]

i pointed an 1850 GKT spam list last night that allowed me to take a 5 man unit of pallies and 2 5 man units of purs along with a GM. thats 8 scoring units when needed. thats 6 DS units and two outflankers when needed. a lot more flexible, AND you get those power units that you need.

[shortysl]

Thought i'd throw my two pennies worth in. My 2k list has absolutely no Paladins in it at all, and only 10 Terminators. I will say at this point that i haven't used the army yet but, as a Dark Angels player, i'm already confident in the performance that 10 Terminators can give and, if anything, Grey Knight Terminators are even more powerful than Deathwing. I'm of the opinion that as long as you deliver them correctly, survivability isn't a huge issue for Terminators. Maybe i'm wrong, i'll find out tonight when my Grey Knights fight their very first battle against my mate's Orks. I'll let you all know how it went tomorrow ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Short, just as an exercise, have you tried writing your list but swapping the 10GKT for 5 Pallies?

 

That should free you up at least 135 points for other stuff. :D

 

Not knowing your full list, it might not be possible, if for exmaple you've used all 3 elite slots on 5 man Purifiers Squads (or the like), but you might be able to shift things around, and the extra 135+ points might get you a new unit.