Crazy idea

[Stormshadow]

Hmm…

 

10 Terminators, 2x Psycannons:

 

10 wounds

16 S4 AP5 shots

8 S7 AP4 Shots

20 CC Attacks, 30 if assaulting

Scoring.

 

 

5 Paladins w/ 2x MC-psycannons. Inquisitor w/ terminator armor & Psycannon. 6x henchmen with storm bolters.

 

19 Wounds

18 S4 AP5 shots

12 S7 AP4 Shots (some are master crafted)

13 cc Attacks, 19 if assaulting (the ones worth mentioning :huh:)

Not Scoring, but could be…

 

Which one is better? More cc attacks, terminator armor all around and scoring. Ore more wounds and shooting?

[Toasterfree]

here is the thing, if you take 2 blobs of expensive units, i am going to ignore those expensive units until my entire army and shoot them down. even pallies will fall under an entire army shooting at them. while they have that 24 in sweet spot, my wolves have a 48in sweet spot for shooting. you get hit at least 2 times more.

 

now if you had 2 big blobs that can create 4 units AND more stuff, now i dont know what to shoot at. is draigo wing hard to beat? sure. would GKT with MORE DUDES be harder to beat? maybe. here is how you test it. two people have to play identical sized lists (HEY! we do that already) over say 100 games. the same opponent EACH WEEK! (not person, but army) and then you can see the results.

[Aidoneus]

now if you had 2 big blobs that can create 4 units AND more stuff, now i dont know what to shoot at. is draigo wing hard to beat? sure. would GKT with MORE DUDES be harder to beat? maybe. here is how you test it. two people have to play identical sized lists (HEY! we do that already) over say 100 games. the same opponent EACH WEEK! (not person, but army) and then you can see the results.

Practicality aside, that still wouldn't tell you much. All it would tell you is how well each list is at beating that one other list. It says nothing about how either would fare against any other list out there.

 

For what it's worth, I think any GK army that can deliver a lot of I6 force weapon attacks, and can find ways to assault on its own turn, will beat Draigowing handily. Take Purifier vs Draigo for example (not min-sized razorspam purifiers, but fairly beefy squads). If the purifiers assault, even if the Draigowing has a libbie, he won't get to use quicksilver, so everyone goes at the same time. Assaulters get more attacks, especially if they assault with more than one unit, and they go through armour saves and insta-kill paladins. Keep in mind, when dealing with nemesis force weapons, all those clever wound-allocation shenanigans actually really hurt the paladins, because each force weapon wound that gets through will kill a whole paladin. Sure, the paladins' halberds strike back at the same time and kill a bunch of stuff too, but the damage will have been done, and point-for-point the paladins are much worse off.

 

Compare this to assaulting regular GKTs with purifiers. The GKTs have all the same benefits as the paladins (hit back with I6 halberds of their own, have inv saves), but don't lose out because they're being hit by force weapons. GKTs will fare about as well as an equal number of paladins (more or less), but that's far fewer points you lose in that one combat.

 

Plus, and I really feel that I cannot stress this enough... SCORING! I can't tell you the number of times I've won games because my GKTs are holding, not contesting, an objective. And I don't need to invest 175-275pts into an HQ I wouldn't otherwise take just to make them able to do that.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Hmm…

 

10 Terminators, 2x Psycannons:

 

10 wounds

16 S4 AP5 shots

8 S7 AP4 Shots

20 CC Attacks, 30 if assaulting

Scoring.

 

 

5 Paladins w/ 2x MC-psycannons. Inquisitor w/ terminator armor & Psycannon. 6x henchmen with storm bolters.

 

19 Wounds

18 S4 AP5 shots

12 S7 AP4 Shots (some are master crafted)

13 cc Attacks, 19 if assaulting (the ones worth mentioning B))

Not Scoring, but could be…

 

Which one is better? More cc attacks, terminator armor all around and scoring. Ore more wounds and shooting?

 

The wounds issue is a false argument.

 

Str 8 AP2 weapons, which are now flooding 40k, ignore the extra wounds of a paladin.

[Gentlemanloser]

What S8, AP2 weapons do GK get?

 

Bar a collection of Psykers, of course.

 

I think everyone knows ID is the bane of Paladin, and any comparison of wounds would be without taking ID into account.

 

But that being said,

 

10 GKT, 2x Psy: 450 points, 10 Wounds.

 

5 Paladin, 2 Psy, OM Inq, TDA, Psy, 11 Warrior Accolytes, 11 Bolters: 450. Total 24 wounds, 17 wounds taking ID into account.

 

And 3 Psycannons.

[Toasterfree]

What S8, AP2 weapons do GK get?

he is not saying in GK, just in general

 

I think everyone knows ID is the bane of Paladin, and any comparison of wounds would be without taking ID into account.

 

But that being said,

 

10 GKT, 2x Psy: 450 points, 10 Wounds.

 

5 Paladin, 2 Psy, OM Inq, TDA, Psy, 11 Warrior Accolytes, 11 Bolters: 450. Total 24 wounds, 17 wounds taking ID into account.

 

And 3 Psycannons.

but 10 GKT give you a lot more flexibility to put other things in your list with out saccing points to just a giant blob of dudes. why pay the extra points if ID is going to kill them anyway?

 

15 dudes at LESS than the cost for the same number of pally gives you more tactical flexibilty, more targets to consider, AND the ability to pick up a small blob of dudes.

 

i did a 1850 GKT spam list, was able to fit in 5 units of 5 GKT, two units of 5 purs, AND a 5 man paly unit. with a GKGM as HQ i now have 8 scoring units when i need it PLUS more targets for you to shoot at.

[Gentlemanloser]

he is not saying in GK, just in general

 

In General, there's not a wealth of S8/AP2 Weapons around. Nids don't get any, Orks don't (IIRC). What do Deldar and Eldar gets? Star Cannons are S6. Disintergrators are S5.

 

but 10 GKT give you a lot more flexibility to put other things in your list with out saccing points to just a giant blob of dudes. why pay the extra points if ID is going to kill them anyway?

 

Gaint blob?

 

I rarely face IDing shooting weapons. /shrug My Pallies hardly ever get shot to death with ID. It's usually a CCW That IDs them. And Assaulting Pallies (or even GKT) is usually a last resort.

 

15 dudes at LESS than the cost for the same number of pally gives you more tactical flexibilty, more targets to consider, AND the ability to pick up a small blob of dudes.

 

15 GKT cost less than 15 Palies. Of course. I don't know what you're getting at there? But, as I've *always* said, the idea is to replace 10 GKT by 5 Pallies. I wouldn't try replacing 5 or lower GKT this way.

 

i did a 1850 GKT spam list, was able to fit in 5 units of 5 GKT, two units of 5 purs, AND a 5 man paly unit. with a GKGM as HQ i now have 8 scoring units when i need it PLUS more targets for you to shoot at.

 

By replacing 20 of the GKT with 10 Pallies;

 

(Off the top of my head)

 

HQ: Draigo (275)

 

Elite: Puri x10, Psy x4 (280)

 

Troop: Paladin x10, Psy x4 (630)

Troop: Paladin x5, Psy x2 (315)

Troop: GKT x5, Psy x1 (225)

Troop: Strike x5, Psy x1 (110)

 

Total: 1,835

 

This has 5 Scoring Units, with 2 from TGS, 50 Wounds and 12 Psycannons. Yours has 5 Scoring Units with 3 from TGS, 45 wounds and 11 Psycannons.

 

(I was working towards a list like yours above, but got it pointed to 1,895 bare bones, with just Pyscannons on the Squads you posted, so somethings out.)

 

Not that I'd run the list like this, but it's just an example. More Wounds, more Psycannons, less points.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Deldar get str8 ap2 blasters and can spam them in a very nasty fashion on raiders/venoms

 

Eldar get an abundance of lances aswell as fire dragons.

 

Astartes/Chaos get all the meltas they need.

 

Tau get railguns

 

Orks get Shokk attack guns which have the potential to be a 36" blast of instant death. They also have zzap guns

 

Guard can flood the field with melta

 

Nids and daemons are the ones that don't get the insta-death, but to be fair they are screwed against even an average GK army.

[Toasterfree]

he is not saying in GK, just in general

 

In General, there's not a wealth of S8/AP2 Weapons around. Nids don't get any, Orks don't (IIRC). What do Deldar and Eldar gets? Star Cannons are S6. Disintergrators are S5.

 

but 10 GKT give you a lot more flexibility to put other things in your list with out saccing points to just a giant blob of dudes. why pay the extra points if ID is going to kill them anyway?

 

Gaint blob?

 

I rarely face IDing shooting weapons. /shrug My Pallies hardly ever get shot to death with ID. It's usually a CCW That IDs them. And Assaulting Pallies (or even GKT) is usually a last resort.

 

15 dudes at LESS than the cost for the same number of pally gives you more tactical flexibilty, more targets to consider, AND the ability to pick up a small blob of dudes.

 

15 GKT cost less than 15 Palies. Of course. I don't know what you're getting at there? But, as I've *always* said, the idea is to replace 10 GKT by 5 Pallies. I wouldn't try replacing 5 or lower GKT this way.

 

i did a 1850 GKT spam list, was able to fit in 5 units of 5 GKT, two units of 5 purs, AND a 5 man paly unit. with a GKGM as HQ i now have 8 scoring units when i need it PLUS more targets for you to shoot at.

 

By replacing 20 of the GKT with 10 Pallies;

 

(Off the top of my head)

 

HQ: Draigo (275)

 

Elite: Puri x10, Psy x4 (280)

 

Troop: Paladin x10, Psy x4 (630)

Troop: Paladin x5, Psy x2 (315)

Troop: GKT x5, Psy x1 (225)

Troop: Strike x5, Psy x1 (110)

 

Total: 1,835

 

This has 5 Scoring Units, with 2 from TGS, 50 Wounds and 12 Psycannons. Yours has 5 Scoring Units with 3 from TGS, 45 wounds and 11 Psycannons.

 

(I was working towards a list like yours above, but got it pointed to 1,895 bare bones, with just Pyscannons on the Squads you posted, so somethings out.)

 

Not that I'd run the list like this, but it's just an example. More Wounds, more Psycannons, less points.

the people in your area then dont use a lot of s8 ap2, there are a lot of them out there!!!

 

i will post the list later when i get home and have time. and i would rather have that extra scoring unit to force my oponent to decide where to go, than the extra 5 wounds what will be negated by the plethora of s8 weapons that are out there, even if its not AP2. there are a lot of ID weapons against t4, do we need to dig into them all??

[Gentlemanloser]

A 2+ Save negates most of the nasty-ness of S8+ AP3 or higher weapons.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

There isn't one correct answer I think.

 

Paladins and regular GKT have their own advantages and disadvantages. Each to their own I guess.

[Toasterfree]

A 2+ Save negates most of the nasty-ness of S8+ AP3 or higher weapons.

2+ doesnt negate it, cause you can fail that. it just gives you a higher chance of making that save

[nurglez]

The thing is, regular all comers armies don't spam enough str 8 weaponry to deal with paladins reliably. Yes everyone who can spams melta, but generally 2-3 of them. A drop pod full of combi melta sternguard worry me the most, but with statistics should only kill 3-4 out of a squad of 10.

 

I love that we can have this discussion about grey knights, so many other codexes have much better choices then others (grey hunters over blood claws, ba assault squads over tactical squads etc).

[Toasterfree]

I love that we can have this discussion about grey knights, so many other codexes have much better choices then others (grey hunters over blood claws, ba assault squads over tactical squads etc).

sometimes taking a tac squad in BA makes more sense, like if you were going to drop a unit in a pod, may be better to take a tac squad...

 

but totally agree BC<GH. although i do want to make a BC list just for fluffy games.

[nurglez]

Aye was posting from my phone and in a hurry.

 

As I said above though, there are many many "best choices" in other codexes. The fact there have been such debates over paladins compared to Termies, termies compared to strikes and so on, makes me think that this codex is one of the best internally balanced codexes. Of course psyrifle dread's are too cheap, but you can take other heavy support and still do well (in my opinion at least), and there are only a few units I would never consider using.

 

I love paladins, they are what made me collect a grey knight army, and they are my only grey knight army. 2 wound's is way tougher then it seems on paper, however, vs an army that can spam str8 ap2 weaponry, they are just more expensive terminators. however, this game doesn't just boil down to cost effectiveness or statistics, playing style means a lot, as well as terrain, set up and mission objectives, and thats before we even consider the playing skill of the opponent or what army they are bringing.

 

Let's just admit that both are viable choices ;)

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Great read thus far guys, thank you for that!!

 

I played DraigoWing early on and got too caught up in it and let my wolves slip behind. But now I have returned to the GK codex and have my sights on Mordrak. Toasterfree, you helped quite a lot in my list development, but this thread has opened up a whole other can of worms!! In a good way of course, a can of gummy worms if you will.

 

If I am following the general theory behind this discussion, Paladins are better taken in smaller games because they are tougher and can pump out more shots/attacks, but termis are cheaper and therefor allow you to take more goodies. There's the scoring and 'counts as' scoring debate as well. So barring the fact that there is no army out there that packs nothing but str8 ap2 weapons, which unit is going to be tougher to kill in 5 man units?? I figure that if you dump all of your shots into a unit of Paladins, they do have a higher chance of survival then the termis based solely on the fact they have two wounds as opposed to one. But how does that effect the rest of the army?? Does toting an expensive unit in smaller numbers increase the survivability of the unit, of is the less expensive route going to be better in the long run, due to access to more points and therefor more fire power.

 

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but if any of you have time look at my 1500 point Mordrak list if nothing else to see where my question arise from. Based upon what their role will be, is it better to take terminators because they are cheaper, or paladins because they will survive longer??

 

End of Line

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Aye was posting from my phone and in a hurry.

 

As I said above though, there are many many "best choices" in other codexes. The fact there have been such debates over paladins compared to Termies, termies compared to strikes and so on, makes me think that this codex is one of the best internally balanced codexes. Of course psyrifle dread's are too cheap, but you can take other heavy support and still do well (in my opinion at least), and there are only a few units I would never consider using.

 

I love paladins, they are what made me collect a grey knight army, and they are my only grey knight army. 2 wound's is way tougher then it seems on paper, however, vs an army that can spam str8 ap2 weaponry, they are just more expensive terminators. however, this game doesn't just boil down to cost effectiveness or statistics, playing style means a lot, as well as terrain, set up and mission objectives, and thats before we even consider the playing skill of the opponent or what army they are bringing.

 

Let's just admit that both are viable choices ;)

 

Yeah, it's one of the things I like aswell. Some armies have limited viability outside the cookie-cutters, you can try for something different but will be at a severe disadvantage.

 

With GK you have the freedom to take the codex in any direction you choose and still have a viable force for most games. You are not handicapped for doing a theme/fluff army and can still compete if you don't choose a cookie-cutter build.

[Toasterfree]

1850 Pts - Grey Knights Roster

 

1 Apothecary

1 Apothecary - Terminator Armour hammer

 

1 Grey Knight Grand Master

1 Grey Knight Grand Master - Iron Halo; Terminator Armour; Storm Bolter

 

1 Knight of the Flame

1 Knight of the Flame - Storm Bolter

 

4 Paladin

3 Paladin - Terminator Armour; Storm Bolter psycannon hammers

1 Paladin - Terminator Armour

 

4 Purifier

3 Purifier - Storm Bolter 1 psy cannon

1 Purifier

 

1 Razorback

1 Razorback - Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter

 

20 Terminator

15 Terminator - Terminator Armour; Storm Bolter 5 psycannons, hammers

5 Terminator - Terminator Armour

 

5 Terminator Justicar

5 Terminator Justicar - Terminator Armour; Storm Bolter hammers

Total Roster Cost: 1850

[Gentlemanloser]

That's a little confusing to read! ;)

 

I think from there you had 7 Psycannons? (Edit: and only a single 5 man Purifier Squad, not 2) Taking that list as a base;

 

HQ: Draigo (275)

 

Elite: Purifier x 10, Psycannon x4 (280)

 

Troop: Paladin x10, Psycannon x4 (630)

Troop: Paladin x5, Psycannon x2 (315)

Troop: GKT x5 (200)

Troop: Strike x5, Razor, Psybolt (150)

 

Total: 1,850

 

10 Psycannons, the Razor, 5 Scoring Troops, 2 more form TGS. 50 Wounds.

 

Edit: The list above has 5 Troop Units, and 2 Elite units you would need a 3+ on TGS to make Scoring. For 7 individual units in total.

 

My List has 5 Troop Units, and 2 Elite Units I would need a 1+ on TGS to make Scoring. With 7 Individual units in total.

 

I don't see how that has more targets to shoot at. And my list has 10 more wounds, and 3 more Psycannons.

 

Edit 2: So lets look at wounds if we assume every Pallies suffers ID and therefore only has a single wound each.

 

My list: 35 Wounds.

Your list: 35 Wounds.

 

So the list with Pallies over GKT is at no disadvantage if we take ID into account.