Does anyone use havocs?

[greatcrusade08]

evening all

i was chatting to some friends recently and i came to the opinion that havocs are a worthwhile inclusion (on paper) in chaos armies.

i was wondering if anyone used them and in what combo of weapons, any anecdotes etc?

 

my reasoning comes down to points.

at 15 points per, chaos marines are marginally cheaper than most of thier counterparts, with a few cons of course

-no champ as stock

-no splitting fire

-no ATSKNF

-high costed upgrade options (35 points for a lascannon... nuff said really)

 

i know regular marine devs are said to be rubbish/overcosted/underpowered or whatever, but havocs are on par with them (but without signum and ATSKNF)

 

5 dev marines with 4ML is 150 points

5 havocs with 4ML is 155 points.

 

5 long fangs with 4ML is 115 points.. which is just rediculous IMO, but i digress.

 

the real comparison shouldnt be made against other codxes but against other heavy support elements of our own dex.

for the most part i think chaos lack long range anti-tank, i myself have used defilers for a while, but one defiler is 150 points and only has the one BS3 S8 cannon. (or autocannon)

AV12 doesnt last long against the long fangs and las/plas razorbacks though

 

then we have oblits, who despite being pliable to any situation only offer one form of long range anti tank weapon.. the lascannon.

for 150 you can get two oblits/two lascannon shots, barely half as good as the havocs, IMO they should be used as deepstrikers and take advantage of TL special weapons instead

 

for 15 points more than the oblit we can get a tri las pred, which shows more promise, but still a single shaken or stunned result means the guns fall silent.

i really feel havocs are one of our better valued heavy support options, and with the option to take autocannons (unique to our dex) we can make a reasonable ati mech unit.

 

id build the following

5 havocs, 2 ML and 2 autocannons..

should prove useful against infantry too

 

thought/opinions? am i mad?

[Brother Nihm]

thought/opinions? am i mad?

Not mad, and your analysis is correct. We do lack cost efficient long-range anti tank options. Case in point, your reference to longfangs vs Havocs.

 

then we have oblits, who despite being pliable to any situation only offer one form of long range anti tank weapon.

True, but their main role is to spam Plasma cannon shots on lashed enemies or serve as additional anti-tank when absolutely needed. It is all about efficiency and synergy.

 

Our main cost efficient AT choices come in the form of dual melta CSM squads in Rhinos, combi-meltas (on Rhinos or Champs), Daemon Princes and Termicide. If one doesn't field any of these, or few, Havocs is an overpriced but semi-viable alternative.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Excessus]

If you face Deldar, AC havocs are amongst the best heavy support choices you can have!

[greatcrusade08]

hi Bro Nihm, you raise some interesting points

 

Our main cost efficient AT choices come in the form of dual melta CSM squads in Rhinos, combi-meltas (on Rhinos or Champs)

the problems with using infantry with meltaguns comes in the issue of range, some armies are built to come at you so we can meet them midfield after a single smoke covered move, which is fine.

however if our opponents hang back how do we get a rhino safely across the field?

moreover in terms of demeching an enemy uber unit i feel its much better to do it in thier own table half than ours, meltaguns/multimeltas are good at what they do, but thier range doesnt suit being infantry mounted.

although i do concede that anyone who faces paladins may value meltaguns in infantry squads, i feel they should be built with thier primary role in mind.

 

in essence im saying that melta should have its own platform, which is no problems for C:SM, they have attack bikes, speeders and drop pods.. sadly we dont

 

Daemon Princes and Termicide. If one doesn't field any of these, or few

although MCs chew tanks nicely and termicide does work, neither really shine in that department, both require at least one turn of doing nothing (two or more if your unlucky), whereas the las/plas MSU long fang lists are pumping out anti tank rounds from turn one.

 

alot of what ive just said is personal preference and opinion though, i think i need to run a few games with havocs and gather some eveidence myself.. i was wondering if anyone had any experience with them, and how others value them

anecdotes anyone?

[Warsmith Aznable]

If you face Deldar, AC havocs are amongst the best heavy support choices you can have!

 

When I don't use Oblits I generally use Havocs with AC. It's a matter of what else is going on in the list for me, whether or not I take one or the other, though I'm not sure I could really outline my thought process.

[TheDevourer]

In my rhino rush lists I enjoy fielding a 5 man squad of havocs with 4 melters/plasma guns (depends on how I'm feeling) and then buy them a rhino.

Gives you a nice unit to take out enemy armor or elite troops. It has worked fairly well together with flanking melter chosen in a rhino and 10 man chaos marine squads in rhinos =).

The option to field the special weapons in havocs is what makes them interesting in my opinion. But I guess you have to field them to suit your list, so they re only viable for rhino rush lists.

 

But to be honest if you would like to field long range support I would take Obliterators over Havocs. And also Defilers over havocs. The only havoc line up I see as being decent would be the quadra Autocannon version.

 

Yours Sincerely,

TheDevourer

[greatcrusade08]

just out of curiosity, where do you get the autocannon arms from for CSM?

[minigun762]

just out of curiosity, where do you get the autocannon arms from for CSM?

 

Best I've seen is using the heavy bolter arms with half of a reaper autocannon from the defiler kit.

[greatcrusade08]

thanks minigun, dont suppose you know of any tutorials?

[Warsmith Aznable]

just out of curiosity, where do you get the autocannon arms from for CSM?

 

I make my own, since I don't like the metal model.

[greatcrusade08]

wow thats excellent, thanks max (btw i also liked your dice bag article, your quite the seamstress :D )

[Warsmith Aznable]

wow thats excellent, thanks max (btw i also liked your dice bag article, your quite the seamstress :D )

 

I also make cupcakes that are so delicious they're heretical.

[totgeboren]

I use a group of three AC marines, and either a missile or a lascannon for the last slot. Most often 8 man strong, with an icon of CG. They are excellent against AV12 or lower spam, like IG, Eldar and DE often field. On the other hand, they are tricky to use in that you hand over the initiative to your opponent. They have to think 'I can weather that' and place something in front of your havocs (if you have enough terrain.)

My last game was against Nids, and they sucked so bad. 3 More Oblits would have done a world of hurt more.

 

Here are some pics, it's one standard GW one and two converted.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

A squad of 5 with 4 autocannon have served me well so far, often doing better slightly then my two autolas predators, their high strength and number of shots is always good. I used some old second edition arms/shoulders with autocannons, still got the actual gunners as well as I did not like them, probably should sell them on ebay. :D

[Seahawk]

I use multiple squads, and have four of each heavy weapon available and make use of them. I also have four of each special weapon, in case I want mobility.

 

Basically, I don't care how it's viewed by the community; I use it and it dominates :D

[the jeske]

for 150 you can get two oblits/two lascannon shots, barely half as good as the havocs, IMO they should be used as deepstrikers and take advantage of TL special weapons instead

0_o half as good ? switching las to plasma is half as good when havocks cost more points . realy? deep striking only long range support for chaos is totaly out of the question most of the time because unlike other armies we dont get long range support in other slots.

+oblits are not static , easier to hide etc.

moreover in terms of demeching an enemy uber unit i feel its much better to do it in thier own table half than ours,

with 2 RL and 2 autocannons ? lets say we even take 3 of those units it is still not enough fire power to deal with deathstar units like draigo . that is why it is better not to bother with trying to make a bad soft meta for those and make your list worse against all the other builds.

 

 

although MCs chew tanks nicely and termicide does work, neither really shine in that department, both require at least one turn of doing nothing (two or more if your unlucky), whereas the las/plas MSU long fang lists are pumping out anti tank rounds from turn one.

yes and when we take DPs they have to split fire . that is why we dont run non DP HQs [that and the fact that they arent cheaper nor better] . multiple targets means that the chance that either melta rhinos , or oblits or a DP will surive .

+if we take a RL/autcannon[why the mix for anti rhino 4xauto is better] we are still dead meat we bring 3 support unit a sw player bring 2-3 long fangs + possible razors +/or landspeeders +/or cyclon termis for LF . We always get out shot by msu.

 

Basically, I don't care how it's viewed by the community; I use it and it dominates

anecdotal evidance doesnt help. show build explain how to use because for the last years chaos players were unable to make havock more viable then oblits . Am postivly sure that the chaos comunity around the world as a whole would like to here how you make them work .

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Do I have Havocs? Yes. Do I use Havocs in anything outside of Apocalypse? Nope. No matter their makeup or configuration, they don't outshine my Obliterators, nor do they frighten my enemy as much as Obliterators do.

[Emperors Immortals]

Well, heres the words of a heretik - but where else can i share my views but the realm of renegades and blasphemers?

 

I HATE oblitetators - dont really know why as i looove there description, but i never ever take the stupid things.Yes i know its a huge tactical mistake to deviate from the only viable builds but im not in the running to win the 40k world tournie or whatever and i do think fluff/feelings are as important to teh hobby as game mechanics.

 

SO - i run squads of 4, either 4 AC, 4 ML or a hit squad of 4 PG/MG with the last two always mounted for LoS and response issues. I also ALWAYS take some extra bodies - 1 havoc squad with 4 meltas and 10 extra bodies suddenly becomes a real threat to MEQ squads of all stripes when used as an assault squad.any mark can make it worthwhile.

 

just my opinion and i know not the strongest choices out there - but 15 havocs with meltas modelled to be bezerkers and charging will always attract a large amount of enemy fire at the very least.

[Muskie]

I've used them.

 

Why are Long Fangs so cheap points wise? That does seem exactly fair to every other 3+ power armored army. At least Grey Knights get wonder weapons I hear. ;-)

 

I tried the 4 autocannon squad. I dug up the old one and built the rest using IG plastic autocannons. They can work but their problem is they are static and a bullet magnet. In Vancouver tournament's missions require a lot of movement and havocs just seem so second edition. If they were cheaper maybe. I've tried the driving havocs with four special weapons in tournaments, and four plasma guns isn't bad, but I just prefer things like twin-linked lascannons or the aforementioned melta guns in a rhino for anti-tank. I also like Chosen. Chosen can have four special weapons and a heavy weapon and infiltrate/out flank. It costs more, but it can throw a wrench in some people's plans. I built a squad like that too for Astronomi-con. Most of my thinking as far as building and painting is with an eye towards Astronomi-con even though I'll be missing the second year in a row. Next year I should be back but with 6th Edition and a new codex, Havocs aren't on my radar. Skimmers are.

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3454/3909710991_0ca51b7380.jpg

DIY Havocs by Muskie McKay, on Flickr

 

I have quite a few ideas, but having run Havocs at two Astronomi-cons in a row, they just can't move and shoot. You need to be able to move and shoot in Warhammer 40,000 these days.

[greatcrusade08]

anecdotal evidance doesnt help. show build explain how to use because for the last years chaos players were unable to make havock more viable then oblits . Am postivly sure that the chaos comunity around the world as a whole would like to here how you make them work .

 

Jeske whilst i respect your opinion on all things competative in chaos, i think youve misunderstood my point.

its not about out-shooting MSU and long fangs, no space marine dex can do that.. if you fight fire with fire, the man with the bigger flame thrower wins.

the point i was making is that early game we suffer from long range anti-mech, and to that end havocs seem the best option.

If we cant demech, then we suffer from lack of 'control' (see bro tual for more info)

 

i wasnt saying olbits are only half as good, i was saying in the early game lascannon/anti tank role, they are only half as good. If you deepstrike them they are excellent and also work well in conjunction with lash (i have simialr success with LSS and thunderfires in my scout army)

 

IMO anecdotal evidence is superior to mathhammer and meta advice, becuase its practice and not theory.. but YMMV

[Kristoff]

I have quite a few ideas, but having run Havocs at two Astronomi-cons in a row, they just can't move and shoot. You need to be able to move and shoot in Warhammer 40,000 these days.

 

They don't have to be. They can be built similar to Chosen squads in many respects, though this does eliminate your long range firepower options if you do.

[minigun762]

They don't have to be. They can be built similar to Chosen squads in many respects, though this does eliminate your long range firepower options if you do.

 

There just isn't much of a need for that in Chaos armies. We aren't lacking special weapon users, its more the long range niche that we have trouble filling.

 

That said, you could mess around with 6x MSU plague marine squads with 2x specials and 3x MSU havoc squads with 4x specials if you wanted to. Add in chosen or terminators as you see fit.

[chaplain belisarius]

autocannons absolutely ruled in 2nd edition (last time i used havocs was back when you could give them tank hunters-autocannon armed havocs were ace then too)

 

My problem with havocs (and devastators) is that the good heavy weapons (lascannons and plasma cannons) cost too much-so you wind up taking missile launchers and more bodies to soak up enemy shooting-if they were cheaper, they would be fielded more often! (plus, my heavy support choices are normally filled up with my beloved vindicators to be honest)

 

bottom line is-if you are having fun, its good! :lol:

[Kristoff]

They don't have to be. They can be built similar to Chosen squads in many respects, though this does eliminate your long range firepower options if you do.

 

There just isn't much of a need for that in Chaos armies. We aren't lacking special weapon users, its more the long range niche that we have trouble filling.

 

That said, you could mess around with 6x MSU plague marine squads with 2x specials and 3x MSU havoc squads with 4x specials if you wanted to. Add in chosen or terminators as you see fit.

 

That's why I added the caveat. I'm not saying that it's always the best use, but it can be used to surprise or scare the crap out of someone.

 

Of course, we could go old school with the CSMs and do the whole Las/Plas thing with them to get long range, too. Just because it's not effective does not mean it's not an option.

 

At least Havocs have a better survivability than a lot of other Heavy Support Infantry options in the game, and can tweak themselves to be a little more survivable beyond that, too (admittedly at a cost).

 

At this point in the codex' life, I think doing things unusual can actually be more effective than following the standard norm. After all, how many people know how to deal with Vespid or Sniper Drone Teams? Of course, one does have to be prudent and not go overboard, either. (apologies for the rambling).

[Deadlight]

the disadvantage with long fangs is their unit size. as soon as they take one to two casualties they lose effectiveness (heavy shots). at least with havocks you can make a unit of 8, so they will last longer.