Does anyone use havocs?

[Brother Nihm]

the disadvantage with long fangs is their unit size. as soon as they take one to two casualties they lose effectiveness (heavy shots). at least with havocks you can make a unit of 8, so they will last longer.

For almost double the price. They do fight well in CC though.

[the jeske]

there is no disadvantage in a unit that costs less has more fire power can split and can have a las/plas or twin las razorback . double that when the unit isnt the only long range support the army can get.

 

being smaller in size but twin targeting only means that LF stun/shake more [less incoming fire , more GH/TWC get in to short/melee range]. sure they get focus fired , but so can havocks [and if they run they run for real] and considering that aside for DE most squads are not 5 man the loses always are higher then 2-3 models . a LF unit just like a havock one will get wiped out the same . the LF faster , but they also cost less .

 

Of course, we could go old school with the CSMs and do the whole Las/Plas thing with them to get long range, too

no we cant .200pts lascanons suck .

 

 

autocannons absolutely ruled in 2nd edition (last time i used havocs was back when you could give them tank hunters-autocannon armed havocs were ace then too)

in the 2ed you were not using autocannons you were taking 4 veterans with plasma[chaos plasma didnt have the one turn cooling time] because the unit cost 99pts so was worth 0 vp. and they had infiltration.

[Melekharn]

I field 5 havocs in a rhino with 4x Heavy Bolters and Mark of Nurgle.

Main reason - I love Heavy Bolter models, kinda reminds me of the heavies from TF2

 

My main opponent runs Orks, generally fielding a number of sluggaboyz mounted in Trukks. Heavy Bolters have been their bane.

By all means, against heavier armoured adversaries, heavy bolters lose some effectiveness, but they give you a decent number of reasonable strength shots at a pretty good range.

It is my opinion that you are more likely to cause the hits/wounds than you are with something like a lascannon.

While a lascannon will almost garauntee a kill if you hit the opponent, if you miss you've wasted a shot. 4 heavy bolters gives you 12 chances to hit, and up to 12 chances to wound, compared to 4 and 4 with lascannons.

 

In games where I feel like taking troops over vehicles, I prefer to use specifically armed Chosen to deal with heavy armour over havocs, and you'll see why in the Chosen thread similar to this one.

I'll park these guys on an objective (to secure it) and point them at whatever looks to be a threat - backed by a havoc totting Rhino just for some extra oomph (and obviously to get them here before the enemy). Throw in a squad of CSM to capture the objective and deter any would be assaulters. They're a pretty hard unit to move.

[Hyaenidae]

just out of curiosity, where do you get the autocannon arms from for CSM?

MaxMini makes some badasski M249's, and with a little modification, make some cool looking cannons...

I'm using mine as a 'counts-as' Heavy Bolter, but if you use a different front stock (such as the previously mentioned defiler AC's), they'd make some gnarly Autocannons.

PM me if you take this route, I'd be happy to help in any way.

[Kristoff]

Of course, we could go old school with the CSMs and do the whole Las/Plas thing with them to get long range, too

no we cant .200pts lascanons suck .

 

Yes, we CAN. We SHOULDN'T, but we CAN.

 

And yes, paying 200 points for a lascannon sucks.

[the jeske]

options that suck do not exist . otherwise we would have FA section in the gav dex.

[Kol Saresk]

options that suck do not exist . otherwise we would have FA section in the gav dex.

Refusal of the existence of something is not the same as its nonexistence.

[the jeske]

it is here.

[Kristoff]

it is here.

 

Yes, only in your brain, but not in actual print.

 

Now that we have the standard Jeske argument done, can we get back to discussing the horde of heavy weapon users?

 

It is interesting to point out, that you COULD (not recommending, just saying the capacity is there) build them up to 20 for some serious in-depth defense, but I'd only seriously think about something like that for Apocalypse.

[chaplain belisarius]

@the jeske-no mate, i was using autocannons! (back in 2nd edition they were my favourite heavy weapon...)

 

back on topic...anyone tried the special weapon armed havoc squad? bet it works well?(especially with meltas or flamers..)

[TheDevourer]

Like I said 4 melters in a rhino alongside flanking chosen with melters in rhino. Backed up by Csm squads in rhinos worked fairly well for me :P. But only on non competitive levels :).

The Havocs are a large threat potential for enemy tanks, but then again everything is in that list ^^. Still I wouldn't recommend them due to the complete absence of long range support units that way (If you want melter guns take chosen for the flank/infiltrate move).

 

Yours Sincerely,

TheDevourer

[chaplain belisarius]

hmm...always forget they can take special weapons to be honest! sounds like it could be pretty fun..will give it a go...thanks!:)

 

I prefer my chaos marines to be always attacking...all the time...so special weapon havocs fit the bill...

[Muskie]

In 2nd Edition I used missile launchers with plasma missiles, totally worth the 5 point upgrade to create an expanding plasma blast inside the opponents deployment zone. Also 3 Chaos Space marines with 3 plasma guns was 99 points in 2nd Edition and thus one victory point I seem to recall.

 

I have run Nurgle Havocs under the current rules naturally. Did up a squad of heavy bolter dudes as that is what I had painted or had available to paint, took them to Astronomi-con. Less effective than autocannons in my experience, which I converted and painted up for the next year. You can however do a squad of 3 heavy bolters and say three bolter dudes, budget dakka. Or to give them some anti-armor, which is rare in an all-Nurgle army, give them 3 heavy bolters and one lascannon. Admittedly the heavy bolters are wasted shooting at heavily armored foes, but it gives you options and makes shooting at things like Ork Nobz or Terminators or certain Tyranid units more amusing.

 

I can't see many reasons to choose Havocs over the other heavy support options or Chosen in an all comers list. They look poorer when you are limited to less than 3 Heavy Support choices due to say missions or house rules... If I knew I was playing against a horde, then yah one of my three havoc squads might make an appearance. However I would say given the vaunted meta-game, in Vancouver especially at events, the opposition tends towards mobility and vehicles over hordes of foot sloggers. Plus anything I can kill with a bolter or a knife scares me a lot less than things that my basic line infantry can not hurt.

[Snejk]

I have a bunch of assorted havocs. (4AC, 3 ML and 3 LC). I have never used the ML or LC havocs but sometimes I field the AC ones. Not to much success, but I use them anyway since i like ACs and their good range. Theoretically they should be fairly good against light armour but i have never more than just stunned a Chimera, let alone destroyed one.

 

But I like them. I like pump out those AC rounds all over the place, knowing I'll dish out a world of hurt against just about anything. But still, for some reason they rarely pay out in the end. maybe I'm just aiming at the wrong targets.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In the hallowed days of 3.5, I ran a squad of two autocannons and two missile launchers to good effect. More recently, my friends and I as a goof went to a tourney in Kansas City and, instead of running our normal tourney armies (Space Marines for me, with others being Eldar, Tau, and Space Wolves) we ran our old Chaos Marines (Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and a mix). We got hammered across the landscape on average, but that's immaterial My point is, I took a Havoc squad with two each missile launchers and lascannons. I got fairly good use out of them, popping Rhinos and the such -- shot down a Stormchicken, too -- but all in all, I have to say that from a purely observatory point of view, there are better options to fill Heavy slots.

[Warsmith Aznable]

In the hallowed days of 3.5, I ran a squad of two autocannons and two missile launchers to good effect. More recently, my friends and I as a goof went to a tourney in Kansas City and, instead of running our normal tourney armies (Space Marines for me, with others being Eldar, Tau, and Space Wolves) we ran our old Chaos Marines (Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and a mix). We got hammered across the landscape on average, but that's immaterial My point is, I took a Havoc squad with two each missile launchers and lascannons. I got fairly good use out of them, popping Rhinos and the such -- shot down a Stormchicken, too -- but all in all, I have to say that from a purely observatory point of view, there are better options to fill Heavy slots.

 

There is a good chance I was at that tourney, and I think I saw your army. I showed up for an arranged game with a friend and neither of us knew there was a tourney going on, so we played in the corner by the terrain shelves. Probably as close to playing in a tourney as I'll ever come, really.

[the jeske]

people did run havocks in 3.5 because they could be given tank hunter . the more well round IW warrior armies didnt run defilers +basil+vindi .they run oblits and the dread blade counter stature DP with speed minimax with rhinos for sniping hvy weapons/HQs/objectives and basilisk defiler +2 units of havocks . worked much better vs eldar

[UglyWretch]

A few weeks ago, I'd gotten some 2nd hand CSM from ebay and went to my local club. For humour value, I decided (in a 3 way 1k match) to field a footslogging force. In this force I has 3 units of 5 Havocs,

1: 2x Flamer, 2x Plasmagun.

2: 4x Heavy Bolter.

3: Lascannon, Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Meltagun.

 

The Heavy Bolter unit got shot to bits very quickly, but that was due to little cover in my 3rd of the board. The Lascannon, AC and ML tickled other enemy squads, but they kept their distance. The real winner was the Flamer/PGun unit. I kept them off to the side for a couple of turns untill I got them where I wanted them, and the let rip on an enemy unit, tearing them apart. The second turn, I used my position to utilise the PGun's 24" and took chunks out of the enemy HQ.

Lost the game (I was between the other two armies and got munched) but I was suprised what versatility the Havocs have.

[omgitsduane]

I've often had this problem playing chaos too, against a mate who runs an ultramarines army that always has a land raider in it, theres nothing I can use to pop it til it gets close enough to drop off its cargo anyway, but recently with my plague marines I've been running 2 predators with full lascannons and 2 dreads, both with heavy flamers, one with multi melta and one with lascannon. The amount of lascannons put out and at a decent price is working well for me and with 2 walkers and 2 av 13 tanks it presents a problem for anyone not really ready or able to deal with that in their faces.

 

And when you consider the cost, 5 havocs with 3 lascannons is 175 or so, but with the predator I may be a larger target, but I am almost immune to small arms fire, and if someone gets close I don't like the look of I can simply drive away. And on top of all that, one of the lascannons is twin linked. It's a pretty good bargain I feel as long as you're on a map with some good line of sight.

 

Dreads have always been fluff and modelling wise, an amazing choice but always a bad idea with the frenzy, the FAQ has made it a little more reliable now for only shooting the enemy, so you could even have them body guard the predators incase something gets close and threatens it.

 

TL;DR I run 7 lascannons, 3 of them twin linked, and a multi-melta for only 575, which I think has hardly a real disadvantage.

[darth_giles]

hmm...always forget they can take special weapons to be honest! sounds like it could be pretty fun..will give it a go...thanks!;)

 

I prefer my chaos marines to be always attacking...all the time...so special weapon havocs fit the bill...

Four meltagun or plasma rifle havocs in a rhino seems like a good idea, but dependence on transports always bothered me. The biggest problem I saw was with the scenario structure itself; the whole system of Kill Points makes vehicles somewhat undesirable.

 

Then again, most Xenos lists require vehicles as well, some in greater numbers than a CSM list.

[Kol Saresk]

Aren't the Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau very vehicle-oriented.

[the jeske]

but with the predator I may be a larger target, but I am almost immune to small arms fire, and if someone gets close I don't like the look of I can simply drive away.

and if you get stuned [and considering the fire power most armies have you will] then you have a high cost LoS blocker .

 

 

on the havocks with specials . why take them if you cant take the same load out of weapons of chosen and get ouflank for 15 pts ?

 

 

TL;DR I run 7 lascannons, 3 of them twin linked, and a multi-melta for only 575, which I think has hardly a real disadvantage.

7 oblits 525 and non of them go crazy and non of them get stuned. 50 pts difference .

[Kristoff]

on the havocks with specials . why take them if you cant take the same load out of weapons of chosen and get ouflank for 15 pts ?

 

1) You're looking to save 15 points.

 

2) For some obscure reason, you're Elites are already full.

 

3) For some reason, you're not allowed to run Elites.

 

4) For some reason, you must field 3 Heavy Support slots and you want the Wounds.

 

5) You actually want to put a Heavy weapon in with 3 Specials.

 

6) It doesn't fit your army, and your fluff trumps silly Infiltrate.

[the jeske]

1) You're looking to save 15 points.

and how does that happen . because if the list is properly build fiting 15 pts is not a problem .you switch a pm unit to 5 man no champ . points are there . your not taking a psychic power [WP nerfed . lash too hard to use. all dont work more then 50%].

2) For some obscure reason, you're Elites are already full.

ok and when will that be when chaos players will fit 3 elites and try to max out havocks from hvy . even if you took 3 termicids you would still want to take oblits with them .

 

3) For some reason, you're not allowed to run Elites.

too situational . that is like saying a draigo is non viable as HQ because there is a small chance some tournament says no specials .

 

 

4) For some reason, you must field 3 Heavy Support slots and you want the Wounds.

oblits give more wounds and more weapons.

5) You actually want to put a Heavy weapon in with 3 Specials.

what does want mean here ? chosen can have same number of specials +1 and have outflank with rhino . what does wanting has to do with anything here. chosen are better[same load out ,better rules , same job, no noticable points increase] so the "want" for taking melta armed havocks should not exist.

 

 

6) It doesn't fit your army, and your fluff trumps silly Infiltrate.

since when does fluff have anything to do with rules ? puting aside counts as and the fact that chosen are not used for infiltration , but ouflank . I dont see how a unit of havocks would be fluffy and an identicly armed almost same cost unit of chosen wouldnt.

[Seahawk]

options that suck do not exist . otherwise we would have FA section in the gav dex.

 

Refusal of the existence of something is not the same as its nonexistence.

it is here.

:tu:

 

Beliefs like that ensure that any future comments maintain 0% credibility. Sticking one's fingers in their ears and shouting "lalalalala!" has started wars, y'know ;).

 

 

My "anecdotal" evidence clearly proves that, in my area (American Midwest) that Havocs with heavy weapons do very well. All of the options work just fine, though rockets and autocannons have proven to work the best for the points (lots of AV10-11 transport spam around here). Heavy bolters are a cheaper alternative to horde control and lascannons are pricey but still somewhat useful. I don't put them out often.

 

A unit of 10 provides plenty of durability. S7/8 and decent volume provides punch. They have the same close combat capabilities as an assault squad, which is nice. An icon provides a surprise gateway to a scoring unit suddenly capturing the objective the havocs have been camping on.