Does anyone use havocs?

[darth_giles]

Aren't the Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau very vehicle-oriented.

Thing is, Blood Angels and Tyranids don't take any, and I don't think Space Wolves have to either. About the only reason I'm not building a BA or SW army right now is that I'm really tired of Marines.

 

I stopped liking transports with the stupidity that was the NVR and 4th Edition. Forced dismounts and getting strung out by Escalation made them entirely worthless. Sure the Dark Eldar depend on their transports, but that's because some of the better lists are based around doing high-speed drive- by shootings or dumping off large quantities of Wyches and Haemonculi. Or both.

[greatcrusade08]

all of the BA armies ive seen have been MSU, they do it much better than thoer peers with uber fast vehciles and scouting/flanking baals

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And every BA army I've seen since the new Codex came out has had at least one Stormraven, sometimes two, backed up by Fast Razorbacks. DoA lists are apparently fewer and farther between out here than you're used to, Giles.

[Kristoff]

1) You're looking to save 15 points.

and how does that happen . because if the list is properly build fiting 15 pts is not a problem .you switch a pm unit to 5 man no champ . points are there . your not taking a psychic power [WP nerfed . lash too hard to use. all dont work more then 50%].

 

I'm not saying how it happened, I'm just saying it could happen. Again, you refuse to see possibilities. Also, that discount gets bigger when you field 10 Havocs vs 10 Chosen.

 

2) For some obscure reason, you're Elites are already full.

ok and when will that be when chaos players will fit 3 elites and try to max out havocks from hvy . even if you took 3 termicids you would still want to take oblits with them .

 

I don't know, I'm just saying that it CAN happen, not that it SHOULD. Some people actually LIKE to field what they have every now and then. Not every game is a "To-The-Death-Tournament".

 

3) For some reason, you're not allowed to run Elites.

too situational . that is like saying a draigo is non viable as HQ because there is a small chance some tournament says no specials .

 

Happens every month here. My LGS has one strange FOC tournament a month. It's good for shaking things up and providing excuses for fielding off the wall things like:

4) For some reason, you must field 3 Heavy Support slots and you want the Wounds.

oblits give more wounds and more weapons.

 

6 Wounds max vs 20 possible? Even if you go for the minimum, Havocs can deploy 4 Heavies/Specials per turn (not including Plasma Pistol) vs Oblits maximum 3. I should also point out that ID weapons don't hurt Havocs as much as they do Obliterators.

 

5) You actually want to put a Heavy weapon in with 3 Specials.

what does want mean here ? chosen can have same number of specials +1 and have outflank with rhino . what does wanting has to do with anything here. chosen are better[same load out ,better rules , same job, no noticable points increase] so the "want" for taking melta armed havocks should not exist.

 

Why does it have to be Melta? Why not Plasma. If you're planning on getting close, aye, Chosen are far more efficient at that, but if you're making a Fire Support unit (which, *shocker*, Havocs are), Plasma Rifles can do well, if expensive, and more mobile than their Heavy counterparts. And a Heavy weapon in a unit designed to get close is ridiculously stupid.

 

6) It doesn't fit your army, and your fluff trumps silly Infiltrate.

since when does fluff have anything to do with rules ? puting aside counts as and the fact that chosen are not used for infiltration , but ouflank . I dont see how a unit of havocks would be fluffy and an identicly armed almost same cost unit of chosen wouldnt.

 

Since when were we talking about only rules? We're talking about reasons. The reasons don't always have to make sense to someone else, just to the person using them. So, I still contend that this is a valid reason for taking Havocs over Chosen. Not everyone likes to have Outflankers or Infiltrators in their army. Why? I don't know, ask them, it's their story.

[UglyWretch]

A round of applause for Krostoff!

I hate it when people only use what a Tournament List says they should.

[greatcrusade08]

i noly use chosen for outflanking, i try to use a 5 man squad in every game with 5 plasmaguns.

its very nasty, in two games they killed mephy in the first game and 4 sanguinary guard in my last.

 

i think its best to take havocs for anti tank duties, its the one area we lack

[Kol Saresk]

Complete and total Blasphemy against all that is glorious for the Tournament-only players!

Shame on you! You heretic!

 

My Hero! :D

[Muskie]

My Plaguemarine Havocs from back when you could have Plaguemarine Havocs were armed with Plasma. My up close and personal Plaguemarines got Melta and Flamers, though now a days points allowing I like two meltas and then a combi-flamer for the champ to go with his powerfist which is more useful generally, but every now and then the one flamer shot is worth 15 points.

 

For Havocs under the current rules I ran the 4 Autocannons, I think I through up a picture, I also tried 4 heavy bolters which is cheaper but generally doesn't scare anyone. I also have a squad which has all 4 heavy weapons converted and painted, I've never fielded it like that, I did it so I could have a tactical squad with a whatever. I've converted and painted up a lot of models, just in case I want to use them, since I rarely get to play. Most crazy combinations I have tried, including 4 combi-weapons in Chosen squad.

 

I'm curious to see if any of my Plaguemarines, Noisemarines, or Bezerkers will count as Troops in the next ruleset. One rumor said no FOC chart, I played in 2nd Edition which was more like how WFB is now, 25% minimum points spent on Troops. Rogue Trader is getting hazy, but I seem to recall you must take this if you want to take this plus rolling on a lot of charts when choosing an army.

 

If the FOC disappears I wonder what Forgeworld will do, do they release a bunch of PDFs or one new book everyone rushes out to buy to use their Storm Eagle or their Blood Slaughter?

[Panda_]

They have the same close combat capabilities as an assault squad, which is nice. An icon provides a surprise gateway to a scoring unit suddenly capturing the objective the havocs have been camping on.

This is actually the most interresting though I've been reading for Havocks. They can nearly be made scoring !

[empchildrenbob]

why does no one mention the auto las pred? 130 for an amour 13 2 lascannons and an autocannon

[diabloelmo]

I've just put together a 6-man squad with 4x autocannons and a combi-plasma. It needs a couple more bodies in it, which I'll be sorting out when the new codex gets released later this year (or else!) and the new plastics come out. Haven't used it on the table yet, but I'm hoping it'll do a good job of dropping all the transports and skimmers that are all over the place in my local club. Would prefer a power weapon on the champ, but I have run out of bitz!

[Brother Nihm]

why does no one mention the auto las pred? 130 for an amour 13 2 lascannons and an autocannon

Possibly because it:

 

-is a static (otherwise it isn't efficient) metal box.

-takes 1 lucky hit to destroy or stun it, preventing it from doing its job.

-is role confused, autocannons and Lascannons don't mix very well.

-often has LOS issues due to model size and rules for vehicle (sponson) weapons.

 

 

It isn't a bad unit per se, I've had a few games where my Preds did well, it just isn't a very good one either.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Seahawk]

why does no one mention the auto las pred? 130 for an amour 13 2 lascannons and an autocannon

Because this is a discussion about...Havocs! :cuss That being said, I often use 2 to good effect.

 

 

They have the same close combat capabilities as an assault squad, which is nice. An icon provides a surprise gateway to a scoring unit suddenly capturing the objective the havocs have been camping on.

This is actually the most interresting though I've been reading for Havocks. They can nearly be made scoring !

It's only 65 points to include 5 daemons in your list. Plonk down havocs to hold the fort, then whenever the daemons arrive just stick them in cover and go to ground for equal resiliency.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'm going to build a unit of havocs with 2 ACs and 2 MLs. Think it'll work pretty well coupled with oblits.

[Muskie]

why does no one mention the auto las pred? 130 for an amour 13 2 lascannons and an autocannon

 

That is how my pred is armed, but I built it back in 2nd Edition. I wanted to do just a twin-linked Lascannon predator with no sponsons, as I wanted a cheaper twin-linked lascannon that wasn't mounted on a crazy dread. Now I'm trying to keep an open mind for version 6. But I want a more mobile army so an all autocannon havoc squad don't seem to fit my vision.

 

I'm tempted to try fleet walker as others have had success with that, not sure how I'll arm a new Defiler, again I've thought of putting a twin-linked lascannon on one.

 

I almost think you need two of whatever, two defilers, two predators, two vindicators as just one will get picked on. Ditto one landraider, but fitting two into a 1500 army list is tough. I tend to like variety, but tournament winning lists seem to have duplicates and redundancy.

 

I use a six man Noisemarine squad with a single blastmaster and no other upgrades as my designated home base objective sitter: fearless, cheap, able to shoot over 24 inches.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Hase anyone ever used a hovok squad with 4 lascannons in it? It would be pricey but it would be a good way of killing land raiders and storm ravens.

[Brother Nihm]

Statistically speaking, 4 Lascannons it isn't a very efficient way of killing them.

Just saying.

 

 

Then there is the problem of him simply blocking LOS to the 4 static Lascannons, provided the table isn't a moon landscape of course. :)

[Muskie]

Statistically speaking Lascannons apparently aren't very good, twin-linked is of course better, but given the rules, you are better off getting in close and using Melta technology. Some other races/armies have additional anti-armor capabilities, I know Ork players sometimes complain about having just Rokkits ignoring the Shock Attack Gun and their pie plate guns.

 

I don't get to play anymore, but if I wanted to kill a Landraider or a Storm Raven I'd probably drive up close and get out with multiple meltas. I bought but have yet to assemble a Forgeworld Dreadnought with Multi-melta as that was the only way a CSM army could get that weapon, that extra six inches of double armor penetration range might be worth it.

 

4 Lascannon Havocs is just a luxury, there are much better uses of the points, 5 havocs with 4 meltas in a rhino would be cheaper, but I suspect either the Deep Striking terminators with combi-meltas or Chosen in a Rhino will be able to get into melta range quicker and easier than the Havocs. Where the Lascannons might do better is against big bugs or other monstrous creatures. I've played against Nids and with their large number of wounds and immunity to instant kill they are a problem. You generally don't want to get within six inches of them. Because of this I always have a lascannon in any army I make, preferably a twin-linked lascannon so I don't miss my one chance to hit whatever it is that worries me.

 

I generally don't have the luxury of cherry picking my opponents or my army as I always play fully painted WYSIWYG, generally in stores or at cons. But Havocs and gun lines only really work against some opponents and some missions, too often you have to go somewhere and do something and the havocs even in a rhino aren't that mobile and they can't fire on the move at maximum speed. The Storm Eagle is intriguing as it is a Fast vehicle, it could get into Multi-melta range easily then once the nut is cracked out charges whatever. At least that seems to be the fluffy vision. For Havocs to make a return to prominence in 6th Edition/new Codex they will have to become cheaper and/or gain the ability to split fire ala Long Fangs.

 

I still don't understand the Fluff or reasoning why only one chapter of space marines has the ability to split fire with their heavy weapons and that chapter/legion has cheaper than average heavy weapons or at least cheaper than Chaos Space Marines. Surely after 10,000 years if anyone has learned the trick of "You guys shoot at that, and you other guys shoot at this" it would be some of the Chaos Legions, Iron Warriors come to mind. I've yet to play against the new Wolves but that rule bothers me a lot, and I don't' see why it doesn't bother every other 'marine' player. I suspect since they are unlikely to replace the wolfdex they will give some similar ability to CSM Havocs, whether it is Legion specific or an upgrade or a change to the basic rules, it just is the easiest way to make squads of dudes with multiple heavy weapons better, other than make them cheaper. Don't Imperial Guard have some sort of order that lets them do tricks with heavy weapons too? Plus they definitely pay less per gun due to being BS 3...

 

If they added a split fire rule to 6th Edition, didn't you used to be able to fire the heavy weapon in a squad at one thing and the other weapons in a squad at another in a previous version of 40K? 2nd Edition or was that a Rogue Trader rule? Bringing something like that back for squads that stand still or something would make certain units, like Chaos Havocs or boring old tactical squads more useful and then they'd appear on tables in numbers approaching the fluff...

 

Cheers, gotta run.

[Jiron]

At the moment I saw them, I thought of using them not for long range support but for anti tank fire support. You can have 4 meltas after all for just 115pts.

Or you can put five more tacticals to them and put them in a rhino. So you have universal unit that can support your other squads in anti-tank roles.

 

But I have never actually played them...

[KoRny Kenny]

Are Havocs metal or plastic? I'd much rather just buy a few CSM and give them LC/AC rather than buy metal Havocs. (Trying to use as few metal models as possible).

 

Anyone done this? Got any pictures? I haven't really paid much attention to the differences in the models at this point.

[the jeske]

if your asking about hvy weapons then they are metal .

[KoRny Kenny]

I'm just hoping to have a squad of about 5/6 Havocs until Oblits get plastic release is all. Dude in GW recommended buying some Devastators and Chaos Terms and converting them into Oblits, but I think I'll just wait. So I am tempted to buy an attack squad of Marines and then get some ACs and LCs somehow.

 

if your asking about hvy weapons then they are metal .

 

Metal weapons aren't so bad, I just really prefer plastic models as the metal ones are obviously heavier and I find them not to look as good..

[diabloelmo]

I just built my own weapons. Hacking up a heavy bolter, adding a longer barrel and some ammo drums makes a convincing autocannon. It's not like those heavy bolters that you get in the CSM squad box are being used for anything else :blink:

[Menkeroth]

As for me i use Chaos Long Fangs :) five havocs squad, with four missile launchers and a champion with p-pistol and powerfist. Can be sweet enough to provide good heavy support :)