Graham mcNeils next HH-novel

[Arkangilos]

Didn't McNeil write the Storm of Iron book? That was a pretty good book about the Iron Warriors...

[Gree]

On the other hand, Graham McNeil's Ultramarines stories are pretty mediocre, and paint the Ultramarines as kinda stupid. So if Ultramarines fans tend to dislike the guy, you can't exactly blame them. The Ultramarines are supposed to be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters", and McNeil paints them as stumbling morons hidebound by a ludicrously stupid "If A, Then B" instruction manual called the Codex Astartes. McNeill's books take the Codex Astartes and take it from what is supposed to be the most comprehensive tome of military knowledge and wisdom ever compiled, like combining all the military geniuses of history, and turns it into "Warfighting for Dummies", and makes the Ultramarines its most unimaginative doctrinal slaves. The Codex was supposed to empower the Ultramarines. Supposed to be its biggest strength. The reason why it was the "greatest". Not to illustrate them as bumbling idiots who cannot use initiative or come up with their own battle plans.

 

UM are not supposed to be the greatest. While i agree his UM novels are somewhat mediocre, instruction manual looking drones that they have become can be explained with 30k->40k decay that happens everywhere.

Some of the stuff that his Ultramarines fail to grasp is basic strategy. The Codex Astartes has absolutely nothing covering improvised explosives for example.

 

Didn't McNeil write the Storm of Iron book? That was a pretty good book about the Iron Warriors...

 

I like McNeill when he’s not writing Ultramarines. When he does write Ultramarines he seems to miss the point of what made them cool in the first place and write their greatest strength as a hidebound weakness.

[Veteran Sergeant]

UM are not supposed to be the greatest.

That's strange. Because the back cover of Codex: Ultramarines says, very specifically, "The Ultramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It may have even been the reason I used quotation marks when I said it in my first post.

 

Highlighted the important bit. This isn't 40k, it's 30k. The Ultramarines, though cool as hell, are not the greatest Legion. That honour went to the Sons of Horus, at least until Istvaan, and after that event any feelings of 'who is the best Legion?' comes down to personal preference.

Well then it's a good thing I wasn't talking at all about the 30K Legion. Did you even read the posts? We're talking about Graham McNeill's Ultramarines novels, which are very clearly set in 40K, not 30K.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You know ADB wanted to write about the World Eaters by himself right? No one forced him. I belive you are a bit harsh and one-eyed on the way you see World Eaters. Of course they can be interesting, and I think when The Betrayer comes out, the way Angron is percived by many will change a great deal for the better.

 

As said earlier in this thread, reading about marines dosen't seem too be something for you. If you read TFH and can't remember any characters but Lorgar, and didn't get anything else from it than: "He actually made him somewhat sympathetic" then you haven't got any of the book i'm afraid.

I would recommend the amazing Night Lords trilogy by ADB to you, but I don't know if you're capable of getting anything from those books, which would really be a shame. But who am I to know?

 

If ADB manages to write an Angron that makes the tiniest bit of sense, then I'll give him all the props in the world. And if he took the project on as a challenge, more credit to him. That doesn't change my expert opinion that Angron is an absolutely terrible character as he exists. He's a one dimensional caricature of a person, and nothing about his back story makes any sense the more you think of it. He's a cartoony, psychopathic Spartacus. Which is fine for a character sketch in an OTT science fiction miniatures game. Writing a convincing story for him is an entirely different thing. I read "After De'Shea" and found it to only exacerbate the flimsy silliness of Angron, not make him into an interesting character. If you liked it, then all the more power to you. It sounds the story was a waste of my time, but you got some enjoyment out of it. It's obvious that we have different tastes, or different standards, for literature.

[Týr]

You know ADB wanted to write about the World Eaters by himself right? No one forced him. I belive you are a bit harsh and one-eyed on the way you see World Eaters. Of course they can be interesting, and I think when The Betrayer comes out, the way Angron is percived by many will change a great deal for the better.

 

As said earlier in this thread, reading about marines dosen't seem too be something for you. If you read TFH and can't remember any characters but Lorgar, and didn't get anything else from it than: "He actually made him somewhat sympathetic" then you haven't got any of the book i'm afraid.

I would recommend the amazing Night Lords trilogy by ADB to you, but I don't know if you're capable of getting anything from those books, which would really be a shame. But who am I to know?

If ADB manages to write an Angron that makes the tiniest bit of sense, then I'll give him all the props in the world. And if he took the project on as a challenge, more credit to him. That doesn't change my expert opinion that Angron is an absolutely terrible character as he exists. He's a one dimensional caricature of a person, and nothing about his back story makes any sense the more you think of it. He's a cartoony, psychopathic Spartacus. Which is fine for a character sketch in an OTT science fiction miniatures game. Writing a convincing story for him is an entirely different thing. I read "After De'Shea" and found it to only exacerbate the flimsy silliness of Angron, not make him into an interesting character. If you liked it, then all the more power to you. It sounds the story was a waste of my time, but you got some enjoyment out of it. It's obvious that we have different tastes, or different standards, for literature.

 

I made no attempt to insult your intelligence. I can see that I was a bit harsh and for that I apologise.

But since you bring it up, that you are an important person, you have made me very curious. Who is it I'm dealing with?

 

I was simply pointing out that TFH contains some of the best and most belivable marine characters. If one is able to read through the whole book and not pick any of it up, then perhaps it derserves a second read, because it is a marathon demonstration in how to walk the fine edge between flat and over the top characters as you yourself calls for.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Angron as a complete hopeless character. I see him as one of the most open Primarchs. The sources about him only describe him as a killer, not what's behind the killer and what truly drives him.

Think about Russ and how he was changed through A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. Before he was the headstrong barbarian king, but turned out to be so much more than just that.

[Lord Ragnarok]

OK, Veteran Sergeant and Tyr, please move forward with other discussions. The current discussion is too interpersonal.

[Hyaenidae]

UM are not supposed to be the greatest.

That's strange. Because the back cover of Codex: Ultramarines says, very specifically, "The Ultramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It may have even been the reason I used quotation marks when I said it in my first post.

 

Highlighted the important bit. This isn't 40k, it's 30k. The Ultramarines, though cool as hell, are not the greatest Legion. That honour went to the Sons of Horus, at least until Istvaan, and after that event any feelings of 'who is the best Legion?' comes down to personal preference.

Well then it's a good thing I wasn't talking at all about the 30K Legion. Did you even read the posts? We're talking about Graham McNeill's Ultramarines novels, which are very clearly set in 40K, not 30K.

 

*Checks name of forum* Exactly. Then open up a topic down in the Ultramarine or Index Astartes subforum about McNeil's other works, and drop the sorry attitude. I didn't attack you, so vent elsewhere.

[MagicMan]

Which HH books has Graham written? I'm pretty sure i enjoyed the ones he's written.

 

 

But then i remember hating one of the books he wrote set in 40k, which i could barely get through.

[Artein]

Which HH books has Graham written? I'm pretty sure i enjoyed the ones he's written.

 

Novels:

False Gods

Fulgrim

Mechanicum

A Thousand Sons

The Outcast Dead

 

Also:

The Dark King

The Last Church

Rules of Engagement

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Which HH books has Graham written? I'm pretty sure i enjoyed the ones he's written.

 

Novels:

False Gods

Fulgrim

Mechanicum

A Thousand Sons

The Outcast Dead

 

Also:

The Dark King

The Last Church

Rules of Engagement

 

Fulgrim was the best interpretation of Slaanesh and the quest for pleasure I have ever read. It's so easy to go cheap and throw in lame fetish and bdsm crap when writing Slaanesh.

 

GM wrote Slaanesh with amazing skill and Fulgrimis one of my fave books to date. I'm looking forward to the death guard book, whenever someone gets around to writing it.

[MagicMan]

Which HH books has Graham written? I'm pretty sure i enjoyed the ones he's written.

 

Novels:

False Gods

Fulgrim

Mechanicum

A Thousand Sons

The Outcast Dead

 

 

 

Thanks for the reminder dude. These were all good books imo, ATS, FG and Fulgrim being up there amongst the best.

 

Hope he pulls out the stops for this next installment.

[Aegnor]

Brother Captain Kezaf - Death Guard book has been written - Flight of the Eisenstein.

[Epistolary Exander]

Brother Captain Kezaf - Death Guard book has been written - Flight of the Eisenstein.

 

I thought that was a "loyalist" Death Guard book? There will be another Death Guard book on how the wider legion fell to Nurgle :D.

[malika666]

Heard about this some months ago (or weeks?)

 

But as far as I know, it's about Fulgrim and Perturabo taking their legions on a mission together, and the kind of trouble this will produce. He hinted there will be confrontations because the two legions is so different, and he is going to explore them both in great details.

 

Hmm, confrontations between the Legions? What is it with those who side with Horus? For some reason none of them can remain professional enough to keep working together against their common enemy. I can get it from a figure like Angron, but I doubt Fulgrim or Perturabo would be that ignorant to let their personalities risk their campaign.

 

Oh well...I guess they just play their role of villains rather well...

[Marshal Rohr]

Which HH books has Graham written? I'm pretty sure i enjoyed the ones he's written.

 

Novels:

False Gods

Fulgrim

Mechanicum

A Thousand Sons

The Outcast Dead

 

Also:

The Dark King

The Last Church

Rules of Engagement

 

Fulgrim was the best interpretation of Slaanesh and the quest for pleasure I have ever read. It's so easy to go cheap and throw in lame fetish and bdsm crap when writing Slaanesh.

 

GM wrote Slaanesh with amazing skill and Fulgrimis one of my fave books to date. I'm looking forward to the death guard book, whenever someone gets around to writing it.

 

 

You realize that exactly what he did. People painting with ^_^, a gigantic orgy breaking out at an opera, a marine blowing a load over having his face burnt off, the rapey overtones, Fulgrim walking around in a loin cloth, and all the other overly sexual bits.

 

I understand its probably hard to pull of the whole excess thing without resorting to a cross between a Brazzers college party video and a naughty leather store simply because its easy.

 

Something along the lines of the Michael Fassbender movie where he's addicted to sex, or Trainspotting, or Requiem for a Dream. No one wants to become addicted to something, having them fight with all their being but becoming overcome by the sheer strength of the addiction would be way more powerful than what Graham did in Fulgrim. It was like a light switch went on and suddenly everybody was DTF. Making characters hopelessly pathetic because of their naughty addictions makes us want to feel bad for them and sympathize, like we do in Horus Rising and you realize for as all powerful as he is, running the galaxy was still too big a job for a Primarch.

 

Then Graham takes over in False God's and Horus' entire fall can be summed up by saying he had a very creepy out of body experience and suddenly theres corpses on the walls of the Vengeful Spirit, he's talking to Daemon's like its no big deal, Erebus is doing all kinds of creepy rituals and he's cool with it.

 

It's like he doesn;t spend enough time showing the slow descent, its all too sudden in his books.

[Billuriye]

Meh, those didn't disturb me. I would expected nothing less from scions of Slaanesh. It's not like movie Salo where the movie's entire message got burdened by over the top visuals. I actually felt they added to progression.

[Marshal Rohr]

Except there was no progression. It just happened out of nowhere. All at once everything turned into a Hentai movie.

[Billuriye]

Except there was no progression. It just happened out of nowhere. All at once everything turned into a Hentai movie.

 

Hyperbole aside, there was progression. Legion got cockier by the minute, Fulgrim's mood became more erratic etc. The degeneration was quick but not sudden. Could it be pulled off better? Sure.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Chaos as a whole is a very insidious force, but most 40K works don't have a middle ground in terms of corruption. Once Chaos gets its grip on you, no matter how tenuous, either you race down the spiral or it remains 100% hidden and no one knows about it. Fulgrim and his boys were on the "racing" side of corruption, that's all, and honestly -- I'm ok with that. Even the bits in the middle I didn't like -- and there wasn't many -- were cancelled out in full by the sheer awesomeness of the Drop Site despite how hard it was to read about my most favored Primarch biting it.

[Conn Eremon]

Chaos as a whole is a very insidious force, but most 40K works don't have a middle ground in terms of corruption. Once Chaos gets its grip on you, no matter how tenuous, either you race down the spiral or it remains 100% hidden and no one knows about it. Fulgrim and his boys were on the "racing" side of corruption, that's all, and honestly -- I'm ok with that. Even the bits in the middle I didn't like -- and there wasn't many -- were cancelled out in full by the sheer awesomeness of the Drop Site despite how hard it was to read about my most favored Primarch biting it.

 

I had no issue with the "racing" aspect of it, personally. It's that, once again, the sex and drugs aspects of Slaaneshi devotion were the only ones portrayed. Granted, the Emperor's Children of 40k are the poster boys of those aspects, but there was so much room for more and I am rather tired of Slaanesh always being not-so-sexy sex. He started off showing the severe drive and dedication, more than bordering on obsession, to an ideal state of perfection. That right there would have been an amazing way to fall to Slaanesh, an obsession to perfect your chosen means of war. And, like I said, he brought that up in the beginning. But when it came time to fall to Slaanesh, he didn't stick with it. He just fell right back onto sex and drugs. I think he's a good author, and I did like Fulgrim, but an honest complaint of mine about it is that it showed me he had the potential to write something amazing, and then just got lazy at the end. Racing down the street to Slaanesh was fine, but he changed lanes for no reason.

[Arkangilos]

Hmm, confrontations between the Legions? What is it with those who side with Horus? For some reason none of them can remain professional enough to keep working together against their common enemy. I can get it from a figure like Angron, but I doubt Fulgrim or Perturabo would be that ignorant to let their personalities risk their campaign.

 

Oh well...I guess they just play their role of villains rather well...

 

They all want different things. Horus wants power and to take the Imperium. Angron wants blood and revenge. Fulgrim wants perfection and does not really care about the Imperium. Pertubulo is angry because his men were just used as garrison or fodder the entire Great Crusade, and so does not really care about the Imperium as a whole. The list continues.

 

The point is, yes they all "followed" Horus, but they weren't really "unified." They did not have a common cause, or a common driving factor. They were all selfish, and only cared for their own desires.

 

The loyalists, on the other hand, had a unified cause, and their only motivation was to defend the Emperor and his Imperium. A team will ALWAYS work together when they want the same thing.

 

But if you notice, before the split, when all of them were loyalists, the legions did bicker among eachother, and after the heresy, the loyalist did so as well.

[Captain Idaho]

Do we have a timeframe specifying just how long the events of Fulgrim took to transpire? Remember Tarvitz and and Lucius were on Murder for a while mid way through the book, so it might actually be a longer time period than we realise?

 

It could just be because of all those events being put into a single book we didn't pick up on just how much time transpires.

[Conn Eremon]

Do we have a timeframe specifying just how long the events of Fulgrim took to transpire? Remember Tarvitz and and Lucius were on Murder for a while mid way through the book, so it might actually be a longer time period than we realise?

 

It could just be because of all those events being put into a single book we didn't pick up on just how much time transpires.

 

I don't really think that'd have any impact, unless McNeil had shown the stages. But if you add some "Twenty years later, . . . " to it, you're really not changing the pacing of it. But, really, the pacing wasn't really the issue in Fulgrim. There's nothing wrong with a sudden fall to Chaos, especially when it's occurring at this point in time, where the Emperor has the Chaos Gods' attentions fixated upon him and his sons. There's also nothing wrong with the sex and drugs aspect of Slaanesh, either. That is a big part of the god's identity. But it gets tiresome when its the only way it ever gets portrayed, and frustrating when an author teases us with something different but doesn't deliver on it.

[FallenArtist]

I have a feeling Fulgrim may talk to Perturabo about Forgebreaker seeing as how he made it and all that jazz. Also i feel like Lord Commander Cyrius will make his apperance somewhat soon because he is apperantly infamous by the end of the heresy when he fights lucius. I am excited to get a better look in the iron warriors i feel like they need a better look intto their legion

[sponsra]

Do we have a timeframe specifying just how long the events of Fulgrim took to transpire? Remember Tarvitz and and Lucius were on Murder for a while mid way through the book, so it might actually be a longer time period than we realise?

 

It could just be because of all those events being put into a single book we didn't pick up on just how much time transpires.

 

Whenever there is a post from you you alway try to see a solution instead of complaining. Instead of "this sucks because ..." you´re always like "this could be believable because ...". Thats very nice!