Graham McNeill on Identity

[Candleshoes]

I'm at that point now, with a through line that works in what was established for the Legions back in the Index Astartes days and what's come since. Over the years other people have written the Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, of course, but in my head, they're still mine. Which is a patently ridiculous notion, given that they exist in a shared universe, tie-in fiction realm, but still...they're mine. Which is how you have to feel if you're going to write anything with conviction and love and passion. If you don't write thinking that this is the only way these guys can be portrayed, then you're not invested enough. So I want to make sure they meet everyone's expectations of the masters of siege warfare and decadent excess (not least of all, again, mine...).

 

To make them my own, I wanted to invent new traditions, new colour schemes, new units, new names and new....everything, all of which needed to be introduced in a way that didn't feel like an Index Astartes article or an excerpt from a Codex. All that white heat of creation takes time and effort and imagination that combines in a witches brew of sitting around looking like I'm not doing very much at all, doodling with words and sounds on a notepad and scouring my books/net for interesting resonances with the subject matter. All of which is a long way of saying that the beginnings of a novel are just about the most important part of a novel, so get it right...

 

I was reading through Graham McNeill's blog about his new Heresy novel Angel Exterminatus (Emperor's Children and Iron Warriors), when a portion of his writing caught my eye.

 

It is an odd thing to break the suspension of disbelief for 40k, and remember that originally, a single normal person, who ties their shoes in the morning, made up what we have taken to heart and given breath. In this case remembering that it was McNeill who wrote the background for the Emperor's Children from the ground up himself.

 

Us DA have really had a treatment over the years, and the post count of our Identity topics is actually unheard of, outside our forum... so many questions with too many answers. With the 5th/6th edition book down the potential pipeline, and with the below words under consideration, there have been so many fluff and edition iterations where we believed our identity was finally secured as a Chapter and Legion. From a tactically brilliant codex army, to the knightly traditions of Caliban, to the Monk like and inquisitorial secret service, to the feather wearing Plainsworld itterations, to the Russian winged lancers, to the circles within circles of the inner organization, to the questing of the fallen, to bordering on fence sitters... few can claim such a long, lengthy and inconsistant heritage as we.

 

McNeill speaks of love and passion in what is his. I couldn't agree more, and further more, people who really invest in the fluff, or the game or the atmosphere, or the painting can honestly tell when those things are put into a project. That is where you see drive, foccus and consistency. If you go back and read in the White Dwarf articles when Jervis commented on his experience putting the book together, his overall theme for them was getting back to basics, to what really mattered. Design wise in the list, he accomplished this in spades. On the fluff spectrum, that back to basics approach that we can all view, is a mish mash of a spoon of everything in our identity list. Is this a bad thing? Are we just destined to be the multi-cultural, multi-issue, multi-foccus army that is leauges fluff wise, different than almost all other Loyalists?

 

If you don't write thinking that this is the only way these guys can be portrayed, then you're not invested enough.

 

I am begining to feel that this might be the only way to provide those supports for the house that the DA sit on. We put hundreds of posts into a review over a short story... not a full book like the Legatus driven No Know Fear Ultramarine discussion, but a simple short story. We seem hungry for any scraps of fluff that can further our identity and legitimise our views on who and what the Dark Angels are, and where their place is in the future. How many ideas and thoughts put together in a fan only army list for no other purpose than for the benefit of the community?

 

Whoever is responsible for taking the DA to the next step on their climb up the editions and iterations, I hope they have the vision to invest themselves into solidifying that identity, and making the tough cuts that will give them needed direction.

[Marshal Rohr]

I understand what he is saying but I feel like he's wrong. There is no one way to write something and no author has 'claim' to a legion. The Dark Angels looked best when A D-B did them, but Gav has his own style too. Graham's a decent story teller but his novels are too 'high fantasy' for me. Too much warp, not enough realism. So I doubt this upcoming novel will be any different.

[Grimdarkness]

As long as that passion is not fan boy fanaticism ala mat ward and the UM.

[Droma]

I agree with him to a point. I think he takes it too far though and it's one of the reasons I've generally found his writing to be very hit or miss. Abnett and ADB especially I think are able to keep the fact that it's a shared universe in the back of their heads when they're writing their stuff. Grahams stuff comes out one sided and you either like that side or you don't while Abnett and ADB consistently present multifaceted works.

 

That's a little tangential to the topic at hand though. I hope whoever writes the next DA dex and future novels is passionate about the work and really invests themselves in it, but I do hope they keep the broader picture in mind. The DA have a lot of depth of character and subtleties that no one else really matches and I hope the author would respect that instead of turning say Azreal into a fallen hunting machine of ultimate justice ala Draigo.

[Brother Kovash]

It's good to know that McNeill feels this intensity about his writing, but it almost seems like too much. After reading the first Ultramarines omnibus, I thought to myself that the books read like a bad Hollywood action movie. Often times, the answer to solving a problem was "Wait a second, we're Space Marines! We can do anything!", and while I admit Space Marines are a powerful entity, they were almost too glorified.

 

One underlying theme is that so far almost every book I have read about Space Marines has been told through the eyes of a Marine. Stories work best when they are told through the eyes of someone we can relate too. Descent of Angels is a great story in my opinion, because we meet Hadariel before he has been transformed, so we can better understand what he is going through. We need our protagonists to be people that have good days and bad days, just like we do. I'm not saying that McNeill is a bad writer, because I think he is very good at what he does. However, if McNeill can write in a way we can relate to while still maintaining his burning passion, then his writing will be even better.

[Alys Dwr]

Some interesting thoughts and a good read whilst i drink my cup of tea.

 

I believe the only problem with the "i own this legion" approach is perhaps ignoring works from other people which have already established an identity for the subject. I understand what he means though, it is about having the passion to immerse yourself fully in a project whilst not being afraid to add new material and develop your own little slice of the 40k universe. It's a big galaxy, there is plenty to go around.

 

Whoever is responsible for taking the DA to the next step on their climb up the editions and iterations, I hope they have the vision to invest themselves into solidifying that identity, and making the tough cuts that will give them needed direction.

I don't agree. Well i guess i do to a point, but part of the allure of the DA is that there are so many half truths and mysteries that the fans are left with plenty of room to discuss and invent extra bits of fluff to fill in the gaps. If we were given a solid identity with little room for negotiation i feel it would steal part of what it is to be a dark angel. IMO this would be slightly ruinous to the fan driven side of the hobby.

 

Of course i wouldn't complain at further official material to coagulate some of the ideals and theories revolving around the DA, as long as it doesn't solidify completely and make our little green men too rigid.

 

Al

[Marshal Rohr]

No author would ever presume to build up a concrete and 'one way' identity for a first founding.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

We should get Karen Traviss to write about the Dark Angels.

 

*hides*

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Stephenie Meyer for a HH book on the young Lion learning the ropes in the Order. :jaw:

[Vazzy]

We should get Karen Traviss to write about the Dark Angels.

 

*hides*

 

In all honesty, I enjoyed her Commando books, and the GOW stuff. Though personally I disagree with McNeill. I get what he's saying, but in such n expasive universe you can't do that.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

We should get Karen Traviss to write about the Dark Angels.

 

*hides*

 

In all honesty, I enjoyed her Commando books, and the GOW stuff.

I might just be the biggest non-rabid fan of her Commando stuff. I wish GW would throw her a line, see what she can do.

[Phoebus]

This is a tough subject.

 

At the end of the day, what it really comes down to is how successful the author was in making "their" hero, Chapter, Regiment, Inquisitor, etc., enjoyable and iconic. It's hit and miss. I can honestly say, for instance, that I'm not a fan of the depictions we've seen of the Iron Warriors as "siege masters" thus far. I can't shake the fact that Graham is projecting siege tactics from five hundred years ago to a universe with much more exciting possibilities for that kind of warfare. On the other hand, though, I think Aaron Dembski-Bowden was very successful in translating his ideas for the Dark Angels.

 

I think an author should definitely be given the room to impose their vision, but if it doesn't exactly make an impact, I think it's fair game to give someone else a shot. Going back to the Dark Angels, it was admittedly frustrating bouncing from one author to another, but I think it was ultimately worth it to see A-D-B's vision. And I'm glad Gav has been selfless enough to continue on what proved to be popular themes and concepts.

[Candleshoes]

I think some might have mistook the direction I was going, it was more thematic than black and white. I suppose an applied version of the "narrow" approach would be something like the below artwork:

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/belial-1.jpg

 

In it you have someone who made the obvious choice to include and not include certain aspects of the DA, and by creatively focusing in on what themes were important, managed to create a characterful, believable and unique melting pot of all the best bits we love. Nothing looks out of place, everything looks like it belongs, even the feathers (which I am loathe to admit, not being a fan of that side of the fluff, but loving it here) but seeing that stirs my DA pride and I embrace every bit of it. I even think I will be incorporating certain aspects into my own models.

 

At the end of the day, the post was more of a "with so much great fluff, how would an author(s) now best go about doing it justice?" With this artwork that has been around a little while now, I can appreciate the many contributions of the codex/background designers and authors, and the 4 HH authors. If the themes are at all what is displayed in this piece of fan work, we are in good shape.

[Isiah]

Just want to say that the creator of that fabulous Belial artwork in the post above was a hobbyist called 'Michael'. Credit where credit is due I think :P.

 

Cheers

I

[TrashMan]

Creating a universe or writign a story - it requires a strong lead. A single person to focus it and direct it. To shape the vision.

There is a reason gaems have a LEAD designer. LEAD writers, etc - these people can veto everyone else.

 

"Too many cooks spoils the supper". Too many writers can spoil a book. OR a universe. OR a chapter. Since it ends up lacking in consistency .. both narrative and tonal.

 

So you need to have one guy who basicly "owns" a chapter. Perferably the orignal creator.