Warp Quake Juggle

[Azerick]

Had a heated discussion on this at our club. If you deepstrike within a warp quake and you get the oppenant redeploy option. Can he put you in the warp quake and have you roll the mishap chart over and over until you get either the back in reserve or destroyed roll? I tried looking this up but did not find a previous post on this.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

That sounds like if Boss Poles could let orks re-roll leadership checks for forever. The game would never end.

 

Once the opponent redeploys the unit, it hits without scattering. What else is there to argue about

 

Hopefully someone didnt try to do that to you.

[Legatus]

Hm, this is not adressed specifically by the deep strike rules for mishaps, but what they do say is that on a roll of 3-4, when the unit is being placed by the enemy, it will not scatter. So, normally, there is no chance that the unit might scatter on top of impassable terrain a second time (the enemy must place it somewhere legal, and it will not scatter. Though he can place it inside dangerous terrain, where the models might be damaged.)

 

The way I interpret that is that a deep striking unit is not supposed to suffer continuous mishaps when trying to enter the board. If it lands on a mishap the first time, then it will either be destroyed, be placed without scatter somewhere chosen by the enemy, or be put back in reserve. It might suffer another mishap when it is put back in reserve and arrives next turn, but it will not suffer another mishap on this same turn.

 

But unfortunately the rules do not specifically say that this is how it is "supposed to work" for other instances of deep strike mishaps. So unfortunately there is no rule backed argument for why the enemy could not do this.

 

Well, the name of that mishap result is "Misplaced". I.e. the unit materializes somewhere other than where it wanted to land. Not: "It attempts to materialize in the same spot five times in a row untill it is finally completely deytroyed." It does materialize, just not in a convenient spot. But names of rules are sadly not in any way authoritative.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about multiple Warp Quake bubbles?

 

Can you move a DS mishap from one WQ to another, instead of trying to trigger the same WQ multiple times?

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Yeahhhh that's no different than people trying to stack bosspoles.

 

People need to stop looking for ways to break the game when they know that there's a possibility that the game could never end because you keep rolling on the mishap chart.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeahhhh that's no different than people trying to stack bosspoles.

 

People need to stop looking for ways to break the game when they know that there's a possibility that the game could never end because you keep rolling on the mishap chart.

 

This ^. Just because the rules have a loophole doesn't mean it's a good idea to use said loophole, RAW or otherwise. it falls under the Most Important Rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

Who's to say it's a loophole, and not clever use of mechanics?

[ShinyRhino]

Who's to say it's a loophole, and not clever use of mechanics?

 

lol. The phrase "clever use of mechanics" is a key indicator that it's in violation of the Most Important Rule!

[Chengar Qordath]

Who's to say it's a loophole, and not clever use of mechanics?

 

lol. The phrase "clever use of mechanics" is a key indicator that it's in violation of the Most Important Rule!

Have to agree there. If you ever find yourself thinking "I know this isn't really fair, but..." it's time to stop and think real carefully.

[Jacinda]

Hm, this is not adressed specifically by the deep strike rules for mishaps, but what they do say is that on a roll of 3-4, when the unit is being placed by the enemy, it will not scatter. So, normally, there is no chance that the unit might scatter on top of impassable terrain a second time (the enemy must place it somewhere legal, and it will not scatter. Though he can place it inside dangerous terrain, where the models might be damaged.)

Maybe I am mis-remembering ... I thought the Warp Quake rule said something like "any unit that deepstrikes within 12 inches after scatter" ... If your opponent places the unit due to mishap, then they do not scatter so the WQ would have no effect.

[Gentlemanloser]

The 'after scattering' is in brackets, and Warp Quake works even if the DS doesn't scatter. It's just there to show the order of events and when the auto mishap takes place.

 

Edit: if placing a unit that suffers the DS mishap is still 'deploying by DS', it would then trigger another mishap, if in range of any WQ.

[Jacinda]

Ah. OK.

 

My advice is to find someone else to play with. Life is to short for (and more fun without) WAAC arguments.

[JamesI]

The 'after scattering' is in brackets, and Warp Quake works even if the DS doesn't scatter. It's just there to show the order of events and when the auto mishap takes place.

 

Edit: if placing a unit that suffers the DS mishap is still 'deploying by DS', it would then trigger another mishap, if in range of any WQ.

Yep, that is an important point. Blood angels can't deepstike into the area with Dante's no scatter ability to avoid Warp Quake

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Maybe they weren't playing, but just finding something to debate.

 

I do it sometimes, even though I'd never attempt some of the silly stuff that I side with.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Normal DS procedure is to roll the scatter dice, and then place the unit where the scatter dictates, ranging from no scatter (a hit) to 12 inches. With WQ, once the dice are rolled, you suffer the effects. Scatter dice have been rolled, even with a hit.

 

If you get a redeploy on the mishap table, there is no scatter dice to roll.

 

I therefore submit to you that it does not cascade. There is no juggle, no stacking, nothing.

[dswanick]

I gotta agree here. Will the RAW is less than sufficient - believing that GW actually only wanted a subject unit to suffer either "delayed" or "destroyed" but wrote the rule such that only "clever" players could figure out that using the "misplaced" result to "juggle" the unit until you got one of those two results is delusional, at best.

[Arikel]

I believe this would fall under the general you can't reroll a rerroll rule wouldn't it? I know it could possibly be considered stretching that general rule but if you apply it here it means the opponent could at maximum make you reroll the dice once, and is then stuck with that result.

 

edit: grammar, spelling errors

[ShinyRhino]

I believe this would fall under the general you can't reroll a rerroll rule wouldn't it? I know it could possibly be considered stretching that general rule but if you apply it here it means the opponent could at maximum make you reroll the dice once, and is then stuck with that result.

 

edit: grammar, spelling errors

 

That was my initial inclination as well, but I wasn't/am not sure the deepstrike mishap is actually a reroll of anything.

[Legatus]

It is not really a re-roll, since each time would be a "new" mishap. It is not a chance to change the result of the initial mishap. Well, in the end that is what it amounts to, but that is not what happens mechanically.

[jeffersonian000]

I figured out this tactic when the GK codex first came out, modeled out a 1500pt GK army that could (in 1 turn) cover an entire standard 3'x4' table with Warp Quakes. The original goal was to control where and when my opponate could deploy vis deep strike (specifically Daemon and Drop Pod armies). My thought at the time was how easy it was to just totally dick over a Daemon player with this tactic: I control where their models end up, not them. Some will get destroedy, some will go back into reserve, and some will get placed in places that make them useless. There is even a thread I started way back when addressing this specific subject.

 

In the end, you simply follow the mishap chart once for each unit effected, as there are no infinite loops. The final placement is not a"deep strike" and does not proc further mishaps (although placing a drop pod in a spot that prevents the unit inside from deploying is both legal and a total dick move).

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

The final placement is not a"deep strike"

 

In that case, if I DS my Termies, mishap, and you place them, I can assult after they land.

[meatball]

Although the rules don't explicitly mention it, I'm assuming that the unit is placed anywhere on the board counting as deep stiking but not actually deep striking, hence, no further WQs would apply.

 

I'm making this asumption due to the wording in the mishap table under Misplaced ".... but including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous terrain for deep stiking units".

[Gentlemanloser]

How is 'counts as deep striking' or even 'deploys using the Deep StrikinG rules', not actually, you know Deep Striking?

 

If you place the unit on the table, and follow all the rules and restrictions of a method of deplyment, how can you say you're not *actually* deploying by that method?

 

Or another way.

 

What is deploying by Deep Stike?

 

Isn't it deploying your unit using *all* of the Deep Strike rules.

 

So if you follow those rules, you're dep striking. If you don't, your not...

 

Edit: What needs ot happen is for GW to wise up, and close this loop they left open by shody writing. Just write something in the DS rules on the mishap table to say;

 

"A unit can only suffer a DS mishap once." Or "When the enemy places the unit due to a Mishap, that unit can not suffer another DS mishap."

 

Or the like.

 

Simple, really.

[DarkGuard]

Edit: What needs ot happen is for GW to wise up, and close this loop they left open by shody writing. Just write something in the DS rules on the mishap table to say;

 

"A unit can only suffer a DS mishap once." Or "When the enemy places the unit due to a Mishap, that unit can not suffer another DS mishap."

 

Or the like.

 

Simple, really.

 

I'd imagine this was the intent. However, I'm not too sure, but Grey Knights are the only army that can do this yes? Many years after 5th Ed came out. At the time it said placed in a legal position, which therefore means you can't force a mishap. So there was no loop, or at least no way to exploit, I doubt many saw it.

 

Years down the line Grey Knights come along, and have this ability which interacts with DS mishap in a new interesting way. Like I said I believe the intent is one mishap for each unit per turn at most, but that wasn't made explicit and GKs have made that loophole. All it needs for now is an FAQ answer in the Grey Knight FAQ while we wait for 6th Ed, though I really can't see that happening anytime soon.

[Brother Dylan]

As a Grey Knight player I thought much the same thing when I first used warp quake, that you could repeatedly loop mishaps. But after playing with my regular daemon opponent we came to the conclusion after examining the rules for misplaced deepstrike mishap that it never states you deploy via deepstrike, therefor it does not loop. "Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table". I figure that the deepstrike deployment has already happened and that they are being redeployed, similar in fashion to lash or the old callidus assassin's word in the ear.