Warp Quake Juggle

[Gentlemanloser]

after examining the rules for misplaced deepstrike mishap that it never states you deploy via deepstrike

 

Then you'd let Terminators deployed by Mishap to assault when they land.

[dswanick]

after examining the rules for misplaced deepstrike mishap that it never states you deploy via deepstrike

 

Then you'd let Terminators deployed by Mishap to assault when they land.

Not necessarily - because it's still the same turn in which they "arrived by Deep Strike", even though they were then "redeployed" by Warp Quake after "arriving by Deep Strike".

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Repeating myself, and adding something to it.

 

Normal DS procedure is to roll the scatter dice, and then place the unit where the scatter dictates, ranging from no scatter (a hit) to 12 inches. With WQ, once the dice are rolled, you suffer the effects. Scatter dice have been rolled, even with a hit.

 

If you get a redeploy on the mishap table, there is no scatter dice to roll.

 

I therefore submit to you that it does not cascade. There is no juggle, no stacking, nothing.

The whole WQ effect is dependant on the rolling of the scatter dice. Just like B comes after A in the latin alphabet, so the effects of WQ come after the scatter dice being rolled. Even on a "hit" you've rolled the dice.

 

When you are placed on the table due to a mishap there is no roll of the scatter dice.

 

Hence there cannot be a juggle, since there is nothing to "trigger" WQ. You've not rolled any dice, there is no scatter. It's redeployment without scatter, nothing more, with the caveat that the unit has arrived via Deep Strike.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Grey Mage]

I have to agree with Ezra, that just seems to be how it fits together.

[Gentlemanloser]

since there is nothing to "trigger" WQ. You've not rolled any dice, there is no scatter.

 

But that's not the WQ rules...

 

Not necessarily - because it's still the same turn in which they "arrived by Deep Strike", even though they were then "redeployed" by Warp Quake after "arriving by Deep Strike".

 

I'm not sure that;

 

They deployed by Deep Strike, then deployed not by Deep Strike

 

Is really any better of an answer though.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Morollan]

In order for WQ to be triggered, the unit needs to deploy by Deep Strike within 12" of the squad (after scattering). Page 95 (2nd para) specifically says that a scatter only occurs if an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice, so strictly speaking if they don't scatter then WQ doesn't work at all. Very much doubt that this is what was intended but I also doubt that WQ was intended to allow juggling (which would also be prevented by the above interpretation).

[Gentlemanloser]

Already covered that. :P

 

The 'after scattering' is in brackets, and Warp Quake works even if the DS doesn't scatter. It's just there to show the order of events and when the auto mishap takes place.

[Morollan]

Already covered that. ;)

 

The 'after scattering' is in brackets, and Warp Quake works even if the DS doesn't scatter. It's just there to show the order of events and when the auto mishap takes place.

 

I'm not sure that being in brackets actually changes anything in terms of how the ability works. I'll admit that I'm no expert on the rules of grammar and punctuation but as far as I'm aware brackets are simply used to denote a clarification or afterthought.

[Gentlemanloser]

Exactly.

 

It's a clarification on the order of events.

 

You Deep Strike. If you're within 12" of WQ you suffer a mishap. You check the distance *after* scatter. So if you DS next to a GK squad, then scatter to end over 12" away, you don't suffer from WQ.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Exactly.

 

It's a clarification on the order of events.

 

You Deep Strike. If you're within 12" of WQ you suffer a mishap. You check the distance *after* scatter. So if you DS next to a GK squad, then scatter to end over 12" away, you don't suffer from WQ.

Yes, that's the thing. *After scatter.* Even a Hit on the scatter dice would trigger it, as the scatter dice have been rolled, yes? That's the point here. When you're deployed thanks to the Mishap Table, *there is no scatter*. As you state, you check to see if you're in the effect after scatter. No scatter, nothing to check, and hence no effect triggered.

[Gentlemanloser]

You've already rolled the scatter dice. :cuss

 

Any subsequent WQ effect would be after the scatter dice have been rolled.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

You've already rolled the scatter dice. :D

 

Any subsequent WQ effect would be after the scatter dice have been rolled.

The wording on the mishaps table (page 95 in your rulebook, in case you wondered) is that the unit is placed in any valid deep strike formation, without rolling for scatter. In effect, you deep strike them anew, but you're not obligated to follow the normal step by step of rolling for scatter.

 

They are, in effect, deep striking with no scatter.

 

WQ specifies, "after scatter." You cannot have an effect that happens after something when said something doesn't happen.

 

Or do you mean to tell me that when your doctor tells you to take a certain pill after each meal, you just down the daily dose since you ate yesterday?

[Gentlemanloser]

You place the unit originally. You roll to scatter.

 

You trigger WQ. WQ works becuase it's after scatter.

 

You mishap and land in another warpquake, without deviation.

 

You look to see if WQ triggers.

 

Is it after a scatter? Yes, you've rolled to scatter above. This WQ is after scatter.

 

WQ is satisfied and triggers.

 

You mishap into another WQ.

 

Is it after scatter? Yes, you rolled scatter above, this WQ is also after scatter.

 

WQ is saified and triggers.

 

etc, etc.

 

Meal analogy is bad.

 

The unit doesn't finish it's deployment, until it finsihes it's deployment. At the start of the process, you rolled to scatter. It's still being deployed.

 

Edit;

 

Also, seperate quesiton? Would Mordrak and Dante then be able to DS into a WQ bubble and *not* trigger it? As they don't roll for Scatter, and aren't using any wargear to stop them scattering.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Morollan]

Using your above example, once a unit deep strikes in once it will always be subject to WQ, even if it gets a 'delayed' result, because you have rolled for scatter at some point in the past and therefore everything that follows is after scatter.

 

Incidentally, as pointed out earlier, scatter only occurs if an arrow is rolled. Rolling the scatter dice is not enough in itself. No arrow = no scatter. Therefore, using your own example, if a unit deploys within 12", rolls for scatter and gets a hit, WQ does not work at all as your own test requires that it be 'after scatter', which has not occurred.

[Gentlemanloser]

WQ doesn't require a scatter result to trigger. That's *not* it's rule.

 

once a unit deep strikes in once it will always be subject to WQ, even if it gets a 'delayed' result, because you have rolled for scatter at some point in the past and therefore everything that follows is after scatter.

 

That's streaching.

 

There's a difference between deploying in a phase, even if you need to place the unit multiple times. (And *only* using that unit for the process. You're not allowed to place that unit down and go deploy/move a different unit...)

 

And being sent back to reserves, to reroll to come in again and trying to deploy in a seperate phase. (After you've moved, shot, assualted with other units in your army)

 

And Mordrak/Dante? Are they immune to WQ? I don't think so, as WQ doesn't require a scatter to trigger it.

 

Otherwise the 'after scatter' wouldn't be in brackets.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

You place the unit originally. You roll to scatter.

 

You trigger WQ. WQ works becuase it's after scatter.

 

You mishap and land in another warpquake, without deviation.

 

You look to see if WQ triggers.

 

Is it after a scatter? Yes, you've rolled to scatter above. This WQ is after scatter.

 

WQ is satisfied and triggers.

 

You mishap into another WQ.

 

Is it after scatter? Yes, you rolled scatter above, this WQ is also after scatter.

 

WQ is saified and triggers.

 

etc, etc.

 

Meal analogy is bad.

 

The unit doesn't finish it's deployment, until it finsihes it's deployment. At the start of the process, you rolled to scatter. It's still being deployed.

I'd throw in a picture here of Spider Jerusalem facepalming, but I think the moderators would frown on that.

 

The unit is redeployed. It effectively deep strikes again. As in, taken off the table, go through the deep strike process again, but skip the scatter step. Therefore it cannot trigger WQ: the previous scatter has no bearing on this deep strike, as they are deep striking from scratch, but are allowed to skip the scatter step. If not for the qualifier in the mishap table, they'd have to roll scatter again too. Now they don't have to.

 

Which part of this is so hard to fathom?

 

Edit;

 

Also, seperate quesiton? Would Mordrak and Dante then be able to DS into a WQ bubble and *not* trigger it? As they don't roll for Scatter, and aren't using any wargear to stop them scattering.

No scatter, no WQ. Rather elementary.

 

And Mordrak/Dante? Are they immune to WQ? I don't think so, as WQ doesn't require a scatter to trigger it.

 

Otherwise the 'after scatter' wouldn't be in brackets.

Are you familiar with the term "qualifier"? Without "after scatter" any unit deep striking within the effect, even with a rule that said no scatter would suffer the effects. With "after scatter" in the mix, any unit deep striking and with a rule that prevents scatter (or that lets them skip the scatter step) will not suffer the effects.

[Stormshadow]

Any one arriving on the battlefield using the deep strike rules, within the WQ area, will suffer a mishap. If the unit is under the effects of scatter dice, this will have to be rolled first to determine if the unit is actually inside of the WQ area or not. I believe this to be RAI, it is also the way it is being played by all GK players I know and in all the tournaments I have been to.

 

I have never done or seen any one perform a WQ juggle. I would consider this a misuse of the rules or taking advantage of a rule book loophole. Whichever it is, I don’t think it is something a grown man should be doing. Leave that to the kids, or rather, encourage them not to do it by being a good example :D.

[Gentlemanloser]

The unit is redeployed. It effectively deep strikes again. As in, taken off the table, go through the deep strike process again, but skip the scatter step. Therefore it cannot trigger WQ: the previous scatter has no bearing on this deep strike, as they are deep striking from scratch, but are allowed to skip the scatter step. If not for the qualifier in the mishap table, they'd have to roll scatter again too. Now they don't have to.

 

Which part of this is so hard to fathom?

[

 

The part that some are trying to push that WQ requires a scatter to trigger. It doesn't.

 

Also, it's not a seperate DS. It's a continuation of the original DS. You don't swap unit. You don't change phase or turn. You carry on Deep Striking the exact same unit, until the DS is successful.

 

No scatter, no WQ. Rather elementary.

 

Are you familiar with the term "qualifier"? Without "after scatter" any unit deep striking within the effect, even with a rule that said no scatter would suffer the effects. With "after scatter" in the mix, any unit deep striking and with a rule that prevents scatter (or that lets them skip the scatter step) will not suffer the effects.

 

The way you play it gives quite a big boost to those uints.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The part that some are trying to push that WQ requires a scatter to trigger. It doesn't.

Then why include the qualifier "after scatter" if not to make it clear that you only trigger the effect after scatter has been done?

 

Also, it's not a seperate DS. It's a continuation of the original DS. You don't swap unit. You don't change phase or turn. You carry on Deep Striking the exact same unit, until the DS is successful.

It *is* a seperate DS. You've repositioned the unt, and restarted the DS process, with the exception that you skip the step of "Roll the scatter dice and move the unit the indicated distance and direction" (paraphrased).

 

The way you play it gives quite a big boost to those uints.

I play neither BA nor GK. *shrug* If anything, this discussion will be used against me.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Gentlemanloser]

Then why include the qualifier "after scatter" if not to make it clear that you only trigger the effect after scatter has been done?

 

As I've said before, order of events.

 

It *is* a seperate DS. You've repositioned the unt, and restarted the DS process, with the exception that you skip the step of "Roll the scatter dice and move the unit the indicated distance and direction" (paraphrased).

 

But that unit has already scattered once. :P On thier Deep Strike. That Deep Strike hasn't finished, it's not resolved, it's still in process.

 

It won't be finished until the unit is actually deployed, destroyed or placed back into reserves. And the DS attempt is over.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

As I've said before, order of events.

YES! That's the *point*! It trigger only *after scatter*! And now the unit is effectively DSing *again* from scratch. But *without* scatter!

 

But that unit has already scattered once. :cuss On thier Deep Strike. That Deep Strike hasn't finished, it's not resolved, it's still in process.

Yes, it has scattered once: on their previous DS attempt. This is a new one, without any actual scatter. By your logic, were it not for the specific wording of the mishap table, the previous scatter distance would still have been used this time too. Indeed, if the unit ended back in reserve, you'd still use the old scatter distance, since the previous DS attempt remains unresolved.

[breng77]

Wow...just wow.

 

Any unit deep striking within Warp Quake automatically mishaps...After scatter is simply a remider about when you need to check the range on warp quake. Similar to how you check any mishap. I'm going to say that this cannot happen because it is clear in the rules (to me) that you should not be able to place the unit somewhere that would cause another mishap (they say no impassible terrain). Arguing anything else simply leads the game to break down, and for rules lawyering to begin.

 

Even without warp quake there is nothing specifically in the rules that would cause the unit to mishap again, other than simply realizing that it is dumb, to think that it is intended to work that way (why bother with the Misplaced result at all).

 

Oops you mishapped, well I'll place your unit within 1" of mine, mishap again..., rinse and repeat

[Morticon]

Wow...just wow.

 

Any unit deep striking within Warp Quake automatically mishaps...After scatter is simply a remider about when you need to check the range on warp quake. Similar to how you check any mishap. I'm going to say that this cannot happen because it is clear in the rules (to me) that you should not be able to place the unit somewhere that would cause another mishap (they say no impassible terrain). Arguing anything else simply leads the game to break down, and for rules lawyering to begin.

 

Even without warp quake there is nothing specifically in the rules that would cause the unit to mishap again, other than simply realizing that it is dumb, to think that it is intended to work that way (why bother with the Misplaced result at all).

 

Oops you mishapped, well I'll place your unit within 1" of mine, mishap again..., rinse and repeat

 

 

Im with this.

 

The implication otherwise is that models/units that do not roll a scatter to DS are not affected by warp quake.

So, Dante's precision strike, all of chaos's Icons (daemons will be happy) and all of marines Tele-homers.

 

The person arguing so vehemently with regards to how a scatter dice needs to be rolled must accept this. And, honestly, I think they'd be very, very hardpressed to do so.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

*snip*all of chaos's Icons (daemons will be happy) and all of marines Tele-homers.

Which WQ quite clearly states do not work within the area covered by WQ.

 

But nice strawman.

[dswanick]

*snip*all of chaos's Icons (daemons will be happy) and all of marines Tele-homers.

Which WQ quite clearly states do not work within the area covered by WQ.

 

But nice strawman.

"If the Psychic test is successful, all enemy teleport homers and other items of wargear that prevent Deep Strike scatter cease to function whilst within 12" of the squad while this power is in effect. Furthermore, any enemy unit deploying by Deep Strike within 12' of the squad (after scattering) will automatically suffer a Deep Strike mishap." - C:GK, Pg.28

 

Interestingly enough, it only specifies wargear as being prevented from working so Descent of Agnels and Tactical Precision should still work just fine. But yeah, I'm still on the side that says WQ happens (after scatter) as a clarification of timing, not as a triggering precondition.