Warp Quake Juggle

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

*snip*all of chaos's Icons (daemons will be happy) and all of marines Tele-homers.

Which WQ quite clearly states do not work within the area covered by WQ.

 

But nice strawman.

"If the Psychic test is successful, all enemy teleport homers and other items of wargear that prevent Deep Strike scatter cease to function whilst within 12" of the squad while this power is in effect. Furthermore, any enemy unit deploying by Deep Strike within 12' of the squad (after scattering) will automatically suffer a Deep Strike mishap." - C:GK, Pg.28

 

Interestingly enough, it only specifies wargear as being prevented from working so Descent of Agnels and Tactical Precision should still work just fine.

Yes, as I said, tele-homers and icons do not work. And Dante's rule works nicely, as it's not wargear, but a special rule.

[breng77]

but still would not prevent the mishap, unless you also argue that an icon or homer placed at 13" would do likewise. The wrap quake rule states that ANY unit deploying by deepstrike (check to see if unit is deploying by deepstrike) mishaps and that you check this after you roll for scatter (i.e. you can place a unit within warp quake range, and then scatter out of it and not mishap. ) The idea that actually scattering is a qualifier of activating warp quake makes little logical sense nor is that how the sentence in question reads. If that were the intent the rule would need to read that any unit that scatters while within 12" of a model using warp quake that model mishaps.

[Gentlemanloser]

unless you also argue that an icon or homer placed at 13" would do likewise

 

Hit final nail on head for support that (after scatter) is a trigger and not a clarification of timing.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[breng77]

Hit final nail on head for support that (after scatter) is a trigger and not a clarification of timing.

 

At which point why bother with warp quake at all. Many times it would be worth risking a mishap because if you hit you don't mishap. I already stated you always check for Mishap after scatter, checking before serves no purpose because it is not the final placement of the unit.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

At which point why bother with warp quake at all. Many times it would be worth risking a mishap because if you hit you don't mishap.

If that is in response to me, are you even bothering to read what I type?

[Gentlemanloser]

But you'd agree that if a unit uses a TH that is placed 13" away from a GK unit using WQ, that a unit could DS off that homer, into the 12" WQ and not trigger it, as they don't scatter?

[breng77]

But you'd agree that if a unit uses a TH that is placed 13" away from a GK unit using WQ, that a unit could DS off that homer, into the 12" WQ and not trigger it, as they don't scatter?

 

Not at all not scattering does not matter for warp quake. Otherwise as I stated why not just deep strike in and hope you roll a hit. The after scatter is telling you to measure the 12" warp quake range after the unit has finished deep striking not at it's initial placement.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh, I agree. :yes: That question wasn't aimed at you, but rather I-C Ezra. :D

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

But you'd agree that if a unit uses a TH that is placed 13" away from a GK unit using WQ, that a unit could DS off that homer, into the 12" WQ and not trigger it, as they don't scatter?

You really aren't reading my posts, are you? I've made it abundantly clear where I stand on that.

 

If you're just out to argue in bad faith, then I'll simply ignore you.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've read everything.

 

I tihnk you've misunderstood.

 

You've not once talked about wargear *outside* a WQ bubble.

 

Sure, we all know the wargear *inside* a WQ bubble doesn't wor.

 

But 13" is still outside, and Homers/Icons have a 6" range...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I've read everything.

 

I tihnk you've misunderstood.

 

You've not once talked about wargear *outside* a WQ bubble.

 

Sure, we all know the wargear *inside* a WQ bubble doesn't wor.

 

But 13" is still outside, and Homers/Icons have a 6" range...

No, you haven't read. You've seen the words on the page, but you haven't read them. So let me put it to you in small portions.

 

1: tele-homers and such do not work if inside the range of WQ.

2: a unit that DS'es within 6 inches of a working tele-homer do not scatter.

3: a tele-homer outside the WQ area will of course work, even into the WQ area.

4: a unit that comes within the WQ area, but in range of a functioning tele-homer does not scatter.

 

And we all know by now where I stand on the final result then.

 

Is there still anything unclear about my position?

[Gentlemanloser]

The Wargear outside the bubble working on units inside the bubble was not;

 

1: Originally obvious

2: Spoken about earlier in the thread

3: Has massive implications in (after scatter) being a trigger for WQ

 

And it beared clarification.

 

Not only do the Callidus Assassin, Mordrak, Marbo, Dante (and anyone else with similar rule) get passivly boosted *if* WQ was to work as you suggest, it's also easily gamed if the Homer/Icon restricion on use can be got around by making sure the effected wargear is just over 12" away.

 

You can then still DS just over 6" in to the bubble and not only not scatter (as the wargear shouldn't be working), but that unit then is also immune to WQ, as the wargear that's not suposed to be working makes them immune to it, if you think WQ doesn't trigger if you don't scatter.

 

Which makes WQ vastly inferior to how it should work, and I'm actually gald that the majority of players (at least as represented by this thread) don't think it works lke that.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The Wargear outside the bubble working on units inside the bubble was not;

 

1: Originally obvious

2: Spoken about earlier in the thread

3: Has massive implications in (after scatter) being a trigger for WQ

It should be blindingly obvious, really, for anyone who can put two and two together.

 

Not only do the Callidus Assassin, Mordrak, Marbo, Dante (and anyone else with similar rule) get passivly boosted *if* WQ was to work as you suggest, it's also easily gamed if the Homer/Icon restricion on use can be got around by making sure the effected wargear is just over 12" away.

 

You can then still DS just over 6" in to the bubble and not only not scatter (as the wargear shouldn't be working), but that unit then is also immune to WQ, as the wargear that's not suposed to be working makes them immune to it, if you think WQ doesn't trigger if you don't scatter.

 

Which makes WQ vastly inferior to how it should work, and I'm actually gald that the majority of players (at least as represented by this thread) don't think it works lke that.

As opposed to making a virtual death sentence to any unit that happens to DS, and making it stupidly broken against armies that rely on or make heavy use of DS?

 

EDIT: And where do you get the impression that a teleport homer outside the range of WQ is "not supposed to be working"?

Edited May 7, 2012 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Gentlemanloser]

It should be blindingly obvious, really, for anyone who can put two and two together.

 

OK, I'll ask you to stop with the condesending comments please.

 

As opposed to making a virtual death sentence to any unit that happens to DS, and making it stupidly broken against armies that rely on or make heavy use of DS?

 

It's the one counter to Drop Pods and (for example only) Flamers coming in off of an Icon and destroying a squad instantly. Rock, meet Paper.

 

It's *supposed* to be effective.

 

EDIT: And where do you get the impression that a teleport homer outside the range of WQ is "not supposed to be working"?

 

Not supposed to be working as in WQ is designed to stop your enemy getting use out of them.

 

Yes, no matter how you rule WQ to trigget a Homer at 13" will 'work' no matter what. What it *won't* do is stop a unit DSing into a WQ to be immune to said WQ.

 

That's should be blindingly obvious for anyone that can put two and two together...

[Stormshadow]

As opposed to making a virtual death sentence to any unit that happens to DS, and making it stupidly broken against armies that rely on or make heavy use of DS?

 

If this is about your army having difficulties when you can’t Deep strike within 12” of your friends Strike scuads, I am certain there are other ways and tactics that can be employed without having to change your army list too much :o. I am used to playing both with and against GK and I would be glad to share my experiences if that would help you out of a tough spot, as I am sure many others on the forum would.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

OK, I'll ask you to stop with the condesending comments please.

Stop insulting my intelligence then.

 

It's the one counter to Drop Pods and (for example only) Flamers coming in off of an Icon and destroying a squad instantly. Rock, meet Paper.

 

It's *supposed* to be effective.

And it is effective. It just isn't supposed to be an insta-gib by way of "keep rolling until I get the result I want." Look, 1 roll on the mishap table will either kill a unit, let the GK player reposition them, or send the unit back into reserve. If it's killed, it's gone. If the GK player gets to reposition them, the world is their oyster. Say, putting those TH/SS terminators in a far away corner, or putting that Vanguard squad far enough away not to be able to use HI and yet well within range of all his guns. If they go back into reserve, the GK player gets another chance the next turn (or the turn after, or whatever, depending on when they return).

 

Not supposed to be working as in WQ is designed to stop your enemy getting use out of them.

Yes, and WQ stops them from working when inside the area WQ covers. 13 inches is not in that area.

 

Yes, no matter how you rule WQ to trigget a Homer at 13" will 'work' no matter what. What it *won't* do is stop a unit DSing into a WQ to be immune to said WQ.

The rules are pretty clear. We've been over this.

 

You won't change your mind, I won't change my mind, there is nothing more to say here. Pointless madness is pointless.

 

If this is about your army having difficulties when you can’t Deep strike within 12” of your friends Strike scuads, I am certain there are other ways and tactics that can be employed without having to change your army list too much ;). I am used to playing both with and against GK and I would be glad to share my experiences if that would help you out of a tough spot, as I am sure many others on the forum would.

I don't use drop pods and my DW starts on the table. But once again, nice strawman. Please stop insulting my intelligence.

[Brother Ambroz]

When an army can have this much power over the opponent it's not even a game anymore. Anyone who tries to use this on me with my daemon army will be sorely disappointed.

[Gentlemanloser]

Stop insulting my intelligence then.

 

That's it, not going to carry on with this any more. Have fun.

[Grey Mage]

Hit final nail on head for support that (after scatter) is a trigger and not a clarification of timing.

 

At which point why bother with warp quake at all. Many times it would be worth risking a mishap because if you hit you don't mishap. I already stated you always check for Mishap after scatter, checking before serves no purpose because it is not the final placement of the unit.

Did you roll a scatter dice? Yes?

 

Then you scattered. Even if you rolled a hit and didnt move.

 

Now, that being said gentlemen either chill out or Ill close the thread until such a point as I think people have chilled out.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Grey Mage

[breng77]

I would say that if you roll a hit you don't scatter, but instead rolled the scatter dice. This is one of the reasons I don't agree with the scatter as a trigger argument. I'm on the if you land in WQ area you mishap, but once you mishap, misplaced results do not trigger a further mishap, if in warp quake area. I already stated that if you go with that logic, then you can break the game through placing misplaced units into mishap situations (the rules only outlaw impassible terrain.)

[Morollan]

Did you roll a scatter dice? Yes?

 

Then you scattered. Even if you rolled a hit and didnt move.

 

Incorrect. Leaving aside the issue of whether scatter is a requirement for WQ to work, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the rules are pretty clear that a scatter only occurs if the scatter dice shows an arrow (2nd para, pg 95). A hit means no scatter has occurred.

[Toasterfree]

Repeating myself, and adding something to it.

 

WQ does not require scatter to go off. if you DS with or with out scatter into WQ, you suffer mishap. your clarification is not necessary

 

Exactly.

 

It's a clarification on the order of events.

 

You Deep Strike. If you're within 12" of WQ you suffer a mishap. You check the distance *after* scatter. So if you DS next to a GK squad, then scatter to end over 12" away, you don't suffer from WQ.

correct. brackets are used for clarification purposes, but not QUALIFING factors. if you DS 11 inches away from a unit with WQ, then scatter 13 in. away, no mishap. if you DS 13 in. away and scatter within 12 in mishap. if you DS 12in away with no scatter, mishap.

 

the juggle effect idk, i can see where mishap is the SAME DS, but i can also see where it can only suffer one mishap per turn

[Grey Mage]

Did you roll a scatter dice? Yes?

 

Then you scattered. Even if you rolled a hit and didnt move.

 

Incorrect. Leaving aside the issue of whether scatter is a requirement for WQ to work, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the rules are pretty clear that a scatter only occurs if the scatter dice shows an arrow (2nd para, pg 95). A hit means no scatter has occurred.

Hrmm... so you did. Fair enough.

[Morticon]

*snip*all of chaos's Icons (daemons will be happy) and all of marines Tele-homers.

Which WQ quite clearly states do not work within the area covered by WQ.

 

But nice strawman.

 

Lose the sarcasm Ezra.

Its not helpful - nor is it appreciated.

 

It wasn't a strawman (by definition or intention); The second half of the examples were an oversight of the rules on my part, going by what was said in the thread vs. having read the whole rule. My bad there.

 

The argument stands that I feel people would be hardpressed to argue that because Dante does not scatter he is not affected by WQ.

And that is not a misrepresentation of the opposing standpoint, its a continuation of the logic applied in the one case, to all existing cases.

 

Your argument is based on the belief that a scatter must be rolled in order for WQ to be used. (there are problems with this that i'll address in a moment)

I believe that the "(after scattering)" is in reference to the general rule dynamic - not the specific cases of units scattering or not scattering.

I believe this because this interpretation creates fewer oddities and counter-intuitive situations.

 

 

Your reliance to the abject written word of the rule is also where inherent incongruities arise. (assuming you disagree with the following)

 

Firstly, as noted previously - there is no definition for "scattering". In fact in all of the Deep Strike rules on pg 95 (or pg 2), there is no mention of "scattering"

If you take it to be a linguistic altenative of the verb "scattered" referenced in the 2nd paragraph on pg95, then that verb is only used under one condition (and since you're all good with the single conditionals, considering its what your argument is based off of) - "..if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model is scattered in."

 

So, I stand to be corrected but, you either need to argue that:

 

1. Only when an arrow is rolled can WQ work AND

2. Dante's ability (and any other abilities not relating to wargear that remove the "scatter") are not affected by WQ. AND

3. If mishap 3-4 is rolled the first time, they will not be affected again by WQ if placed within 12"

 

or

 

Show that the action of "rolling a scatter dice" (pg 95) = "scattering" (GK dex) by definition. (I couldnt find it in the book- i'm pretty sure its because its not there).

 

or

 

You need to change your argument

 

If you are indeed arguing the first, then :) Good luck convincing anyone.

 

I can see the argument being solid by absolute stubborn and rigid RAW.

 

But,

I just can't see how this is anything but over-interpretation of the rules the likeness of the camp that posited terminators didn't have terminator armour (back in 3rd or 4th ed).

[Toasterfree]

WQ does not require scatter to be rolled or that you must scatter or anythign to do with scattering to make it work. you DS with in 12 in. of a unit that cast WQ PERIOD. with OR WITH OUT scatter you are mishapped.

 

End.