Warp Quake Juggle

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Hugs are on me. Edited May 9, 2012 by Ah-a-nothepsis

[Morollan]

WQ does not require scatter to be rolled or that you must scatter or anythign to do with scattering to make it work. you DS with in 12 in. of a unit that cast WQ PERIOD. with OR WITH OUT scatter you are mishapped.

 

End.

 

Well I'm glad that's sorted and that your argument is backed up with such a weight of evidence.

 

Oh, wait...

[Toasterfree]

Repeating myself, and adding something to it.

 

WQ does not require scatter to go off. if you DS with or with out scatter into WQ, you suffer mishap. your clarification is not necessary

 

Exactly.

 

It's a clarification on the order of events.

 

You Deep Strike. If you're within 12" of WQ you suffer a mishap. You check the distance *after* scatter. So if you DS next to a GK squad, then scatter to end over 12" away, you don't suffer from WQ.

correct. brackets are used for clarification purposes, but not QUALIFING factors. if you DS 11 inches away from a unit with WQ, then scatter 13 in. away, no mishap. if you DS 13 in. away and scatter within 12 in mishap. if you DS 12in away with no scatter, mishap.

 

the juggle effect idk, i can see where mishap is the SAME DS, but i can also see where it can only suffer one mishap per turn

 

 

WQ does not require scatter to be rolled or that you must scatter or anythign to do with scattering to make it work. you DS with in 12 in. of a unit that cast WQ PERIOD. with OR WITH OUT scatter you are mishapped.

 

End.

 

Well I'm glad that's sorted and that your argument is backed up with such a weight of evidence.

 

Oh, wait...

oh wait it already had been..... :cuss

[Morollan]

oh wait it already had been..... :cuss

 

Funnily enough, unilaterally declaring your point of view to be correct doesn't generally work in a debate. Both sides are still arguing and discussing the issue.

[DarkGuard]

OK then guys, I think we've had enough time to chill out over this.

 

Now I'm opening it again as I feel that there's still a good debate in here. However, should it get personal again it will be closed. So lets just keep it to the rules and no personal attacks then please.

[jeffersonian000]

It easy to see where the confusion comes from on this subject. When the codex fist hit, I for one worked out tactics to exploit WQ as a way to figure out what can and cannot be done. The big thing that came out of that was the firm knowledge that GW, and specifically 40k, does not support infinite-loop scenarios. You cannot re-roll a reroll. In the case of WQ, you cannot re-deep strikein the same turn a unit that just deep struck, meaning that once the initial deep strike occured (first placement) any re-deployment in the same turn cannot trigger a second "deep dtrike" condition. Simply following the rules with this firmly in mind, and WQ works fine as is. In point of fact, most rules seem to work fine as is with this thought firmly in mind (there is still a few weirdly mismatching rules between Dexes out there, however).

 

To be exact, if a deep striking unit's final placement after scatter is within the radius of Warp Quake, and the Mishap that occurs is for the opponetn to place the deep strikers anywhere on the board, that final placement by the opponent is not in itself a new deep strike. The unit being placed did "deep strike", so all restictions associated do still apply; however, once the unit was placed by the player, the "deep strike" as a form of movement is complete. Any repositioning by the opponet is just that, repositioning. Repositioning after the initial scatter has no effect on Warp Quake, nor will it trigger a new Mishap condition.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

It's a interpretation that works, but it's not the rules, sadly. :(

[SeattleDV8]

Well, that's your interpretation.

I find Jeffersonian000's take on the rules correct, and one that causes the least problems.

[Gentlemanloser]

Misplaced

Your opponent may deploy the unit

 

The placement by a mishap is not 'repositioning', but actual deployment.

 

The unit still deployes by Deep Strike;

 

Misplace

which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units

 

All a 'Misplace' result on the Deep Strike Mishap table does is allow your opponent to deploy your unit by Deep Strike, and not you.

 

Edit: it's also not a 're-deployment', it purely a continuation of the original deployment. Otherwise, you might just as well start to argue that a scatter Deep Strike isn't deploying by Deep Strike, as it's a repositioning of the original Deep Strike...

Edited May 13, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[DarkGuard]

Edit: it's also not a 're-deployment', it purely a continuation of the original deployment. Otherwise, you might just as well start to argue that a scatter Deep Strike isn't deploying by Deep Strike, as it's a repositioning of the original Deep Strike...

 

Following on from this and jeffersonian000 would it be possible to argue that the whole Deep Strike process, including Warp Quake and the mishap results, are one Deep Strike? In that this is how you Deep Strike:

 

-Place first model

-Roll scatter

-If arrow is rolled move model in direction of arrow etc

-If final placement is a valid deep strike position then proceed to include rest of unit

-If unit can be placed, Deep Strike ends, if unit cannot, Deep Strike continues with mishap

-Roll for mishap, apply result

-End Deep Strike for unit.

 

So therefore the unit couldn't trigger the Warp Quake a second time as they've already done so, as said it'll be like re-rolling a re-roll. I haven't got my rulebook on my at the moment though so can't check to see if the language lends itself to this interpretation.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you think about the fluff, if you mishap and are misplaced, you technically never landed in the original spot in the first place. It's not like you land on the gorund for a split second, then bamph somewhere else.

 

You 'plan' to land there, but the teleport fails, and you land elsewhere. That's the fluff explaination.

 

The deployment process doesn't stop until you land successfully, or the unit is destroyed, or fails to Deep Strike at all.

 

But, from a rules point of view, a Misplace is still a deployment by Deep Strike. And WQ triggers if anyone deploys by Deep Strike in it's area.

 

There is *nothing* in the rules to stop a Misplace that is being deployed in a WQ bubble from triggering that WQ.

 

Nothing.

 

(That's not to say there shouldn't be... )

 

It's not a reroll, it's a seperate application of an existing Psychic Power.

[dswanick]

If you think about the fluff, if you mishap and are misplaced, you technically never landed in the original spot in the first place. It's not like you land on the gorund for a split second, then bamph somewhere else.

 

You 'plan' to land there, but the teleport fails, and you land elsewhere. That's the fluff explaination.

 

The deployment process doesn't stop until you land successfully, or the unit is destroyed, or fails to Deep Strike at all.

 

But, from a rules point of view, a Misplace is still a deployment by Deep Strike. And WQ triggers if anyone deploys by Deep Strike in it's area.

 

There is *nothing* in the rules to stop a Misplace that is being deployed in a WQ bubble from triggering that WQ.

 

Nothing.

 

(That's not to say there shouldn't be... )

 

It's not a reroll, it's a seperate application of an existing Psychic Power.

Well, nothing except for "The Most Important Rule". A player can choose to be railroaded by a rules-monger who wants to "juggle" his minis - or he can politly point out that this is bending a grey area to one's own advantage, ask nicely if his opponent wants to consider playing the game by the spirit and intent of the rule, and then pick up his toys and find a more mature opponent if he declines.

[breng77]

I agree with danswick on this one, it is obvious how this is intended to work. I previously pointed out that there is nothing in the deepstrike rules that would prevent any misplaced unit from being juggled in the first place (WQ or not) other than the fact that we are all aware that it is not supposed to work that way. There is nothing in the rules that states I cannot place the misplaced unit within 1" of one of my own units (mishap), or in such a way that all the models cannot be placed (mishap), other than I assume that if that was the intention GW would not even bother with the misplaced rule.

[greatcrusade08]

i would agree with the majority here, RAW isnt that clear tbh, darkguard could be correct about deepstriking being one process.

bottom line its hard to call, therefore a grey area.

as in most cases you have to be able to argue it succinctly over the tabletop, if it comes down to interpretation, go with the common sense approach.

 

only scatters once, no juggling

[DarkGuard]

I agree with danswick on this one, it is obvious how this is intended to work. I previously pointed out that there is nothing in the deepstrike rules that would prevent any misplaced unit from being juggled in the first place (WQ or not) other than the fact that we are all aware that it is not supposed to work that way. There is nothing in the rules that states I cannot place the misplaced unit within 1" of one of my own units (mishap), or in such a way that all the models cannot be placed (mishap), other than I assume that if that was the intention GW would not even bother with the misplaced rule.

 

I believe the rulebook says they must be placed in a valid Deep Strike formation. My friend tried to place my Terminators in a board corner so they'd mishap again (we have very competitive games) but was stopped when someone pointed out that he had to deploy in a way that was legally allowed, so they all had to be on the board.

 

It's slightly different to how WQ is worded though so I can't see that clause coming into it.

[shortysl]

Well, for my two pennies worth as an actual Grey Knights player, I do not believe that juggling is legitimate. Warp Quake is described as being a destabilisation of the Warp/Realspace border that throws thrusters out of alignment, destabilises teleport beams etc. As one post has already stated, if the Deep Strike mishap result is a relocation, then the unit never actually arrived at the original location in the first place; the relocation represents them landing off target as a result of the Quake. In game terms, the Knights utilising the Quake do not 'decide' where enemy units will arrive, they simply create the Quake. While the RAW state that it's a fresh Deep Strike (and therefore leave Warp Quake open to abuse), I personally believe that the RAI are for the entire process to represent the initial landing attempt of the enemy force. Therefore, if a relocation is rolled on the mishap table, the enemy unit should be deployed elsewhere on the table and not bounced between Warp Quake bubbles. It's not how I utilise Warp Quake, and I believe that any Grey Knight player who does utilise it that way is not playing in the spirit of the game. Players like that give us all a bad name.

[Brother Ambroz]

Well said shortys. I think if a player wants to use a grey area of rules this way then the other player should just find a more mature player to play against.

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, I'm really not interested in fluff justifications, the Golden Rule, or whether or not you're being immature by using the rules as written or not.

 

I'd rather just discuss the rules as written, and let individual players/goups hash out any house rules / maturity themselves.

 

YMMV.

 

DarkGuard has it right. You have to place a mishap in a 'valid' position. So no intentional off the board / within 1" placements. Is it Valid to deep strike *into* a WQ bubble? Of course.

[SeattleDV8]

Well, why are the others (off the board, within 1") not valid?

Because they cause a mishap, just like deploying within a bubble.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Valid in this context means a non-mishap deployment.

Placing the unit back in the bubble would not be valid.

Edited May 15, 2012 by SeattleDV8

[DarkGuard]

I believe Warp Quake isn't invalid because no where says it's an invalid deep strike position. The rest all explicitly state that you can't deploy a unit there. Although as you said I believe the phraseology is "you can't put them there or otherwise you'll cause a mishap", so could that be the qualifier for valid deep strike positions, a placement where you don't cause a mishap?

[SeattleDV8]

That would be the simplest way to treat the post mishap placement.

[Toasterfree]

well here is the problem with that, if you have a valid location that does not cause a mishap, that could be in some way remote section of the table where that unit will have no affect on the game what so ever (the best tactical choice), or in a location that for the first model down (which iirc is all that is needed to come down) outside of 1" away but so surrounded by things that you cannot place the entire unit and there for those models are dead.

 

cans of worms open cans of worms that were opened by cans of worms

[SeattleDV8]

Incorrect, the mishap rules state that you place the Unit in a valid deep strike fromation.

One model is not enough.

Edited May 15, 2012 by SeattleDV8

[Morollan]

well here is the problem with that, if you have a valid location that does not cause a mishap, that could be in some way remote section of the table where that unit will have no affect on the game what so ever (the best tactical choice), or in a location that for the first model down (which iirc is all that is needed to come down) outside of 1" away but so surrounded by things that you cannot place the entire unit and there for those models are dead.

 

cans of worms open cans of worms that were opened by cans of worms

 

Placing them in a remote location causes no problems whatsoever with regards to the rules so I'm not really sure why you even mentioned that. As for placing so as to cause a mishap, you have to place the unit in a valid deep strike formation, not just the first model So again, not a problem worms firmly back in can.

[Gentlemanloser]

If a WQ bubble isn't a 'valid' placement for DSing a unit, then you can never trigger WQ. As you can *never* place a unit inside a WQ Bubble.

 

Well, the only way to Trigger WQ would be to scatter *into* a WQ bubble.

 

Obviously, this isn't the case. You can validly place a unit DSing within a WQ bubble.

 

As a WQ bubble is a valid place to deploy a unit by DS, then it's a valid place to deploy a unit by a DS mishap that leads to a misplace result.

 

Now, let's take WQ to the extreme. What happens when you cover the entire board in WQ bubbles, and face Chaos Daemons?

 

They have no where to place thier army. They auto lose if going second?