razorramon31 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Wolf Tail Talisman (WTT) If a model with a WTT or the unit hw is with is affected by an enemy psychic power, roll a D6. On the roll of a 5+ that power is nullififed. Here is the question: Can you stack the rolls if more than one model in the unit has a WTT? Example : Unit with 3 Lords, each having a WTT as a piece of wargear being attached together. I have seen numerous artiles where the author keeps using the reference that WTT stack. I think to myself, "great if its true..but every time we discuss this in my gaming store the consensus is no. Need a definitive answer..... Does anyone have that answer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 There is no definitive answer to this question, as GW saw fit to not errata/FAQ it. We do have this : "Page 36 – Runic Weapon, Replace the fourth sentence with “Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic test within 24" of one or more models with a Runic Weapon, roll a dice […]”." - C:SW FAQ Given the similar wording (pre-errata) and the need to change Runic Weapons to clarify that it is one roll regardless of the number of Staffs in range - I can see both arguments that it is currently written to allow multiple rolls for multiple WTTs, as well as the argument that it's meant to be one roll per power. There is one key difference in the wording of the WTT, however. The "or the unit he is with is" clause. A model with a WTT is joined to a Grey Hunter pack, the combined unit is affected by a Psychic Power - it gets a 5+ roll to negate the power. A model with a WTT is joined to a Grey Hunter pack which is also joined by another model with a WTT - the combined unit is still one unit, so it still gets one roll to negate the power. My reasoning is that once the unit has rolled "a d6" to negate the power, this satisfies the condition for both WTT possessed by the unit. Just as a side note : While Runic Weapons clearly no longer stack, and IMO WTTs do not stack, a unit affected by a Psychic power which was cast within range of a Runic Weapon does have the two opportunities to nullify the enemy power (4+ from the staff, and 5+ from the WTT). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyrdWolf Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Just as a side note : While Runic Weapons clearly no longer stack, and IMO WTTs do not stack, a unit affected by a Psychic power which was cast within range of a Runic Weapon does have the two opportunities to nullify the enemy power (4+ from the staff, and 5+ from the WTT). Would that be true if the talisman and runic weapon were held by a single rune priest? Just as a side note : While Runic Weapons clearly no longer stack, and IMO WTTs do not stack, a unit affected by a Psychic power which was cast within range of a Runic Weapon does have the two opportunities to nullify the enemy power (4+ from the staff, and 5+ from the WTT). Would that be true if the talisman and runic weapon were held by a single rune priest? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Just as a side note : While Runic Weapons clearly no longer stack, and IMO WTTs do not stack, a unit affected by a Psychic power which was cast within range of a Runic Weapon does have the two opportunities to nullify the enemy power (4+ from the staff, and 5+ from the WTT). Would that be true if the talisman and runic weapon were held by a single rune priest? Don't see why not, seperate pieces of wargear with different effects. - One prevents the power going off - The other prevents the protected unit from suffering the effect of the power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorramon31 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 good question. But I believe it would make sense to assume that if a RP has both, he should be able to use both. otherwise why have it as an option for his wargear.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Don't see why not, seperate pieces of wargear with different effects.- One prevents the power going off - The other prevents the protected unit from suffering the effect of the power. This is how it works. Read how the runic weapon works, pg. 36. When an enemy model succeeds on a cast, then you can nullify it. Read WTT, pg. 62. When your squad is affected by a power, roll to nullify it. So your opponent casts a psychic power. This triggers your runic weapon. You roll to nullify it, but fail. So, the power hits your squad. You can now roll for WTT. Can you stack the rolls if more than one model in the unit has a WTT? I don't think so, but its your call. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Id say no to stacking WTTs, as the trigger only occurs once. Though you can then save again vs the wound caused if you have runic armor.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3044954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyrdWolf Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Id say no to stacking WTTs, as the trigger only occurs once. Though you can then save again vs the wound caused if you have runic armor.... After reading all three of the entries, all pieces of the wargear have different triggering effects. Runic weapon "when a pyschic test is succeeded", wolf tail talisman "when a unit is affected", Runic Armor "5+ invulnerable save against all wounds caused by psychic attacks. So this means that if there's a psychic power targetting a rune priest attached to a squad of grey hunters. The oppenents ability goes off, you get to use your runic weapon, but since nothing has affected the squad yet the WTT doesn't go off. if that fails then the psychic power "affects" the squad, which means you get your save for the talisman. If that fails, and for some reason you can't take your armor save (let's say the psychic attack your squad is hit with is ap 1) then since that psychic attack would "cause a wound" (assuming your opponent didn't ge a 1 on the to woud result) you would get to use the runic armor of your runepriest. (though your greyhunters would be in trouble) Does that sound about right to everyone Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yes, exactly. The 'stacking WTT' was to the initial question above about having 3 WTT in the same unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skoll Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 if the psychic power affects multiple units with multiple WTT i'd say they do stack, but on a single unit? no Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 with all that being said, i just want to know does rune armor & WTT give us save againt parel of mind shriek missile for GK storm raven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 a wtt wont even save against that. its not a power affecting the unit, its the special rule of the weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 which mean you are pretty much toasted once you get parel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 don't you get the save from the runic armour for that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 with all that being said, i just want to know does rune armor & WTT give us save againt parel of mind shriek missile for GK storm raven. a wtt wont even save against that. its not a power affecting the unit, its the special rule of the weapon. don't you get the save from the runic armour for that? Really, it depends on your group. Some interpret a Perils of the Warp wound as a "wound caused by a psychic attack" while others don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 don't you get the save from the runic armour for that? you are only allowed to take invul saves from perils, its in the BRB and iirc runic armor doesnt allow a save against perils attacks. checking codex now as soon as i can find it p. 61 A model wearing runic armor.....Furthermore the wearer of runic armor has a 5+ invulnerable save against all woulds caused by psychic attacks dues to his protective runes dont have BRB near by, but perils is not a psychic attack. a psychic attack would be like MH or mind war Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 if the character takes a perils of the warp, and he's a space wolf, chances are quite big it's due to a psychic (shooting) attack, now isn't it? :) and, perils is a psychic attack, with the warp as it's source, innit? (this I'm unclear about, please rectify/concur :)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 mind strike missiles are NOT a psychic attack. they are a SHOOTING attack. its the missiles special rules that it causes a perils hit. different than say mind war which is a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack. the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. Actually, no. The Mindstrike missile causes an automatic Perils of the Warp. "Psi-shock - Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects." - Codex:Grey Knights, Pg.57, Mindstrike Missile So the Mindstrike missile causes a Psycher to suffer a Perils of the Warp. The question then becomes does Runic Armor's Invulnerable save protect against Perils of the Warp. And as I mentioned earlier, it's all in the interpretation of your local gaming group. Some groups interpret Runic Armor to protect against PotW, while others do not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. Actually, no. The Mindstrike missile causes an automatic Perils of the Warp. "Psi-shock - Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects." - Codex:Grey Knights, Pg.57, Mindstrike Missile So the Mindstrike missile causes a Psycher to suffer a Perils of the Warp. The question then becomes does Runic Armor's Invulnerable save protect against Perils of the Warp. And as I mentioned earlier, it's all in the interpretation of your local gaming group. Some groups interpret Runic Armor to protect against PotW, while others do not. DUH! As i said, the mind strikes speical rule CAUSE perils. its not a psychic shooting attack. I never said that they DIDNT cause a perils attack, i have been consistent. NO! You cannot take a WTT or a runic armor save against the perils hit from the mind strike as IT IS NOT A PSYCHIC ATTACK!!! Perils are NOT a psychic attack. they are a result of a 1/1 or a 6/6 OR a special rule from a weapon that SHOOTS. If you are wounded by a PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK (mind war/MH/LL/Smite) THEN you would get your RUNIC ARMOR save, and be allowed (since it is power AFFECTING THE UNIT) your WTT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. Actually, no. The Mindstrike missile causes an automatic Perils of the Warp. "Psi-shock - Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects." - Codex:Grey Knights, Pg.57, Mindstrike Missile So the Mindstrike missile causes a Psycher to suffer a Perils of the Warp. The question then becomes does Runic Armor's Invulnerable save protect against Perils of the Warp. And as I mentioned earlier, it's all in the interpretation of your local gaming group. Some groups interpret Runic Armor to protect against PotW, while others do not. DUH! As i said, the mind strikes speical rule CAUSE perils. its not a psychic shooting attack. I never said that they DIDNT cause a perils attack, i have been consistent. NO! You cannot take a WTT or a runic armor save against the perils hit from the mind strike as IT IS NOT A PSYCHIC ATTACK!!! Perils are NOT a psychic attack. they are a result of a 1/1 or a 6/6 OR a special rule from a weapon that SHOOTS. If you are wounded by a PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK (mind war/MH/LL/Smite) THEN you would get your RUNIC ARMOR save, and be allowed (since it is power AFFECTING THE UNIT) your WTT. First, there is no need for "duh"s or CAPZLOCKS!!! So calm yourself. Second, there is a good argument to be made that Runic Armor protects against Perils of the Warp and some groups play it that way. If the OP's group plays Runic Armor protects against PotW, then they should be consistent and allow it against all causes of Perils. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3045837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 In all respect i think Rune armor is suppose to act like a pyshic hood by other SM chapter. Correct me if im wrong. Im not sure how the mind strike actually works.. but from what i was told, as long as the missile hit a unit where the rune priest is attach to it automaticaly causes a peril hit to the RP. Dont they need to wound some one first at least for it to effect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3046317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 No, there is nothing similar between runic armor and a psychic hood. The Runic Weapon is similar, but still not identical by any means. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3046368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 mind strike missiles are NOT a psychic attack. they are a SHOOTING attack. its the missiles special rules that it causes a perils hit. different than say mind war which is a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack. the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. aaah, the wondrous joy of reading only what one wants to read... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3047281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 mind strike missiles are NOT a psychic attack. they are a SHOOTING attack. its the missiles special rules that it causes a perils hit. different than say mind war which is a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack. the missiles do not require a psychic test to use. they use a BS to reduce the scatter of the missile. if a mind strike needed a psy test then it would be a psy shooting attack. aaah, the wondrous joy of reading only what one wants to read... ahh the wonders of being right. cause the mind strike missile is NOT a psychic shooting attack. its a shooting phase shooting attack. you do not have to pass a psychic test in order to use one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251149-wolf-tail-talisman/#findComment-3047490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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