Old collector coming back from a long hiatus...

[Varney]

So, first of all allow me to introduce myself. Long wall of text incoming!

 

I have been into 40K ever since I saw the old 2nd. Ed rulebooks and models as a kid. My dad and I were always making some WWII model airplanes and tanks together and I liked it immensely, but historical stuff was never my passion, so to speak. I remember being introduced to the game on my 8th birthday, when my parents took me to one of the few modelling stores we had in town and allowed me to pick one thing as my gift. As most of you guys possibly remember, 2nd. Edition basically had the BA as the Imperium's poster boys, much like the Ultras are the 'default' SM's right now. The iconic starter box cover with the BA captain and his red brethren fighting off a horde of Orks caught my eye and I asked my mum what that was all about. 'Oh, it's Warhammer 40K. Kind of like chess, but more complicated and you get to make your own figurines' was what she replied. Immediately I knew what I wanted for my birthday, but the starter box was way too much for me to handle at first. So, being the resolute kid that I was, I asked the store staff what I should get instead.

 

Several minutes later I was walking out of the store with Codex: Angels of Death, one of the old metal Librarians (still have him somewhere!) and paints. Lots and lots of red and yellow paints. However, my days with the hobby proved to be more turbulent than the Eye of Terror itself, as you shall soon see.

 

Fast forward to the present: due to a combination of the PC game Chaos Gate, tons of old White Dwarves that I've found at some garage sale, all the new editions coming out and the fact that I liked almost everything GW had released up to now - at least as long as it comes to 40K - I have...

- Two shelves of 3rd. Ed. Space Wolves, soaked in too thick paint and basically abandoned,

- 20 or so unpainted Iron Warriors, now in the process of being hacked and salvaged,

- Codexes and 'test models' for most xeno armies, an Eldar Fire Prism being the most prominent,

- about 500 points of spiky non-Chaos worshipping Night Lords,

- a couple of pages of badly written fluff for a DIY chapter I was making, based on the White Scars,

- and an assortment of plastic and metal Space Marine kits intended for the aforementioned DIY army, most of it still on sprues. About 3000 points if I put it all together.

 

Frustrated with the tedious process of creating a new chapter (I know I should not say such things, but I was always obsessed with the fluff and at some point noticed that I was reading more about the setting than writing my own stories, driven by the urge to make everything as correct and '40K' as possible) and angry with the new Chaos codex, I took a break.

 

With the coming of 2012 I moved to a new flat and busted open all the old boxes that I kept in my old room. One of the first things that I found was my 16-year old Codex: Angels of Death, with the edges all scraped and bent. My eyes literally watered as I leafed through it once again and remembered all the great times I've had as a little kid, planning my first ever 40K army of noble yet sinister Blood Angels. It was, in the words of Codename 47, 'time to dig up the past'.

 

--- END FOREWORD ---

(If you want to skip my rambling, start reading from this point)

 

 

So here I was, with 3000 points of unassembled Marines and a nostalgia-fueled quest to find out how the red angels survived the transition to the 21st Century and next editions. After spending some time on the board, reading the stickied topics and studying sample army lists... I have to say I'm not a fan of the new BA's that I have seen.

 

Sure, Assault squads shall always be my favourite Marines ever and the play style appeals to me somewhat (I had Wolves, Night Lords and WS successors, for crying out loud!), but an army consisting almost solely of these guys kind of misses the point for me. A squadron of Razorbacks with tiny squads supported by six Predators even more so. And the Sanguinary Guard? Most gimmicky Marine unit I have ever seen, on par with Thunderwolves. I apologize if I have offended anyone, but I could say that 'It's not how I was raised' :P I just find it... unimaginative. And every other SM army gets veteran jump packers now? Heresy!

 

Which leads to my dillemma: I have always been a modeller first and a player second, but I would like to know if a more 'codex'-oriented force could hold its own on the battlefield. I would still of course make use of the Death Company, a Baal or two... and the new Librarian Furioso also sounds tasty. But what if I wanted to make a BA army that at its core was more about ranged combat? A highly mobile force with Tactical squads in regular LR's, some Sternguard, a las/missle Dread, things like that. It would be a crying shame to waste all those kits that I have...

 

Help a fellow Baalite out, please! ^_^

[captain maleck]

Well it depends on how you want to play. For fun or competitive. If it's for fun, you can do what you like. If competitive, then it seems to be assaults squads of 5 each with a las/plas Razorback. I'm not really a great one for advice on this kind of thing. I like to field lots of men on the field. I'm not very good at using it, but I enjoy playing it.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Cpt. M.

[daryl]

I am a periodic 40k fan at best. Deployments and life get in the way sometimes so I know how you feel coming back in.

 

I rock massive amounts of shooters and a dread or two for my close combat, even my baal preds stay back and shot like any good tanker would do. I will say that I am a purely for fun gamer, these guys with the serious army list at my local shop just get pissed when I ain't upset over loosing so they don't play me anymore. And as for the Sang Guard, they are cheezy to me but make an awesome looking VV squad, no deathmasks though I just hate how they look. DC rock, I throw them in on some of my armies every now and then but I still just love all the shooting of a ranged list, backed up with a couple of vicious close combat killers hence the furiouso dreads.

 

Bottom line 3000 points worth of Marines, you can make a competetive and fun list, just be patient getting used to all the rule changes again (thats what kills me each time I come back). Then decide BA or C:SM, either way have fun.

[I am Legion]

I totally hear you. This weekend VS necrons I did a 180 and decided to play an almost all bike army, with a couple assualt squads, and 3 Whirlwinds as support. I wasn't used to playing such a list, but I was sick of the general competitiveness I'm used to with my friends. My friends took and all necron warrior army with ghost arks, and something that lets them ressurect on a 4+...

2 turn I did nothing, he just kept getting up. but at the same time I took almost no casualties, something I'm not used to. That was due to the toughness 5 of the biker wall I made for the rest of my army. In the end we had to stop, but next week when i go over to his place for booze and war (not like yours Daryl...not quite like yours...and I mean no disrespect by what I said, I respect soldiers to the highest order), I'm poised to hit him in close combat, which means I will be wiping him off the table in those 3 turns. So the lesson is, try something differant, that people arn't used to, because they didn't build theyre armies to deal with it, plus it's fun and you get to use new tactics...

[Varney]

My problem with the new BA-specific units and tactics in the codex is that GW really, really wanted to set us apart from the 'basic' SM framework and got carried away. A lot. Plus, the new additions don't seem to make a lot of sense rules-wise.

 

Back in the day, the quintessential BA units were the DC and the VAS. Seeing as how the latter was changed into Vanguard and now every SM army could field them, the devs probably felt we needed something 'unique' in return. Thus, we now have Sanguinary Guard, a unit that, while fluffy, should never be as widespread as it is now. Back in 4th, the SM codex had Honour Guard listed as special characters that, if I remember correctly, required you to take Marneus or any other Ultra named character. The Sanguinaries are described as Dante's personal bodyguard, yet suddenly every BA army can have them? Without the need for an HQ choice, no less? Frankly, that makes our Honour Guard more exclusive. They would have made perfect sense as a retinue for Dante and only him. And Sanguinius bless him if he wanted to take all 30 along!

 

My other gripe with these guys is how GW overplayed the angelic themes with them. Not even Dante has feathery metallic wings on his jump pack. Why would his retinue have more bling then the big man himself? Also, why do they all have the statue-like armor? It kind of takes away from characters like Dante or Tycho, who were always depicted wearing it and instantly stood out from the rest. Even the Sanguinor (a fantastic model in itself, no matter what this thing is supposed to be in the fluff) would look better with a standard jump pack instead of the wings. That's how I will model mine anyway. All in all, the wings, the uber-ornate design and the wrist-mounted boltguns remind me of some anime characters, not of the Blood Angels elite. A shame, if you ask me.

 

The Stormraven? If it looked less like a Thunderhawk baby and more like a serious craft then maybe I would consider buying one. As of right now, it's a flying brick with way too many guns.

 

Don't get me wrong - I like the new options very much. I have always wanted to stick a Death Company unit into a black Land Raider, even if it attracted every single gun from the other side of the board. Astorath and Seth are probably the most fluffy new characters ever since codex SM's Kor'Sarro Khan. Death Company with bolters reminds me of why I got interested in the Wolves a long time ago. And I will probably field a Termie and Biker squad just to have a suitably converted Priest join them. I am just a little disheartened when I see all the DoA or Razorback / packless Assault marine lists. The BA have never fought that way! ;)

[Taz]

I am just a little disheartened when I see all the DoA or Razorback / packless Assault marine lists. The BA have never fought that way! ^_^

 

 

Hear hear! Packless assault marines just don't feel like assault marines, IMHO. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the build, but I'll never play a razorspam list. It feels like trampling all over the spirit of the fluff to field assault marines like that, discounted vehicles or no.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I would like to know if a more 'codex'-oriented force could hold its own on the battlefield. I would still of course make use of the Death Company, a Baal or two... and the new Librarian Furioso also sounds tasty. But what if I wanted to make a BA army that at its core was more about ranged combat? A highly mobile force with Tactical squads in regular LR's, some Sternguard, a las/missle Dread, things like that. It would be a crying shame to waste all those kits that I have...

 

Help a fellow Baalite out, please! :lol:

 

You sir, have just described the way that I play my Blood Angels. Nice to see that other people don't really like the razorspam lists. My 1500 point list has one each of: assault squad, tactical squad, and devastator squad, with a nine-man assault squad in a rhino thrown in for good measure (I wanted to try it out). Alongside that I run Sternguard (the shooty veterans) in a drop pod, a Baal with the assault cannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons, a pair of priests for support, and a librarian to lead it. If 2k is more your points level, add in a t-l lascannon razorback to the devastators, a furioso with heavy flamer in a drop pod, and another tactical squad in a rhino.

 

Highly mobile, not had the chance to play Land Raiders myself as I am impecunious at present :). Shooty BA can do quite well, and its a refreshing change since you can still pack a punch in combat. Sternguard in particular are amazing, usually the best performing unit in the army - if you equip them with combi-meltas, there's absolutely no goal they can't accomplish since with those and special ammo they have punch against anything in the game except a Storm Raven, when the ceramite plating ignores the extra D6 for the melta (even so, you're still S8 against armour 12).

 

As to whether or not a 'codex oriented' force could hold its own on the battlefield, the above 1500 point list got me 4 wins at the April GT last year and second best BA player (curse you, 1 additional favourite opponent vote!), and the 2k list won me a tournament last week, so the results say yes. You'll probably catch people off guard with shooty BA, as they'll be expecting more combat focussed. We also have fast vindicators - vindicators with an effective 36" range is filthy.

[Varney]

It feels like trampling all over the spirit of the fluff to field assault marines like that, discounted vehicles or no.

Indeed! That is exactly what I hold against such lists! The only instance where I would use ASM without jump packs would be a squad of ten, accompanied by a Priest and possibly a chaplain or captain on foot (Seth, even!), all riding in a Redeemer. Kind of like an in-your-face assault Terminator unit, only with more bodies (and modelling opportunities!) and without the need to put them in a Crusader, which I find grossly inferior to the Redeemer. Other than that, I think jump packers are primarily a counter-assault unit and even with a Priest and Chaplain cannot get toe-to-toe with xeno and traitor dedicated close combat forces. Why would anyone take away their mobility, field them in a small five-man squad, put them in a not-so-tough transport and multiply that by six is beyond me.

 

Good to hear about your victories, Chaplain Admetus. Have you ever considered a 10-man Sternguard unit split into combat squads, one with two cheap lascannons, the other decked out with combi-meltas and riding a Razorback? That is how I would field mine, however I realize that it's about 350 points spent on ten guys and an APC.

 

One of the other things I have considered are Death Company marines armed with bolters. I am a fluff nut and the image of ten (or thirty! Sixty or even eighty with Astorath!) black-armoured guys, constantly advancing and methodically mowing everything down with massed bolter fire really gets my imagination going. Not to mention that they are still raging lunatics which can shrug off half of the bullets coming their way and get to dominate most things on the charge if they get the chance. Has anyone tried fielding such a unit? It looks mighty good on paper, if you ask me...

[Chaplain Admetus]

I hadn't considered that method of fielding them, no... might give something similar to it a try at some point. I wouldn't use the lascannons though, for the simple reason that the Sternguard's best feature is their special issue ammo. Tag that with combi meltas and a regular melta or two for repeat performances, and they've got game against everything. I think it does though come down to personal preference - yours would be a multi-faceted unit, with a bit more flexibility, whereas I play mine (7 men: 3 combis, 1 regular melta, 2 standard, and 1 with a fist, all in a pod) as essentially a tactical nuke - drop in on turn 1, and kill whatever unit on the other side of the table scares you most. Statistics say you can pop just about any vehicle (4 melta shots, you can expect 3 to hit, if you're in melta range you can then expect 15 or above on 2 of the shots so you're penetrating anything twice barring unlucky rolls, and with two penetrating hits at AP1 then a single 4+ with 2 attempts is a wreck). AP3 ammo hates on MEQ (a priest nearby for bonus points to help with gets hot), cover-ignoring things for things like eldar on objectives, and the poisoned rounds make Monstrous Creatures cry (16 shots, hit on 3s and wound on 2s? With a dev squad with MLs to take away the last few? I'll take that). There's more than one way of fielding them - what works for one person might not work for others, so there's no really right or wrong answers.

[Leksington]

Thus, we now have Sanguinary Guard, a unit that, while fluffy, should never be as widespread as it is now. Back in 4th, the SM codex had Honour Guard listed as special characters that, if I remember correctly, required you to take Marneus or any other Ultra named character. The Sanguinaries are described as Dante's personal bodyguard, yet suddenly every BA army can have them? Without the need for an HQ choice, no less? Frankly, that makes our Honour Guard more exclusive. They would have made perfect sense as a retinue for Dante and only him. And Sanguinius bless him if he wanted to take all 30 along!

 

My other gripe with these guys is how GW overplayed the angelic themes with them. Not even Dante has feathery metallic wings on his jump pack. Why would his retinue have more bling then the big man himself? Also, why do they all have the statue-like armor? It kind of takes away from characters like Dante or Tycho, who were always depicted wearing it and instantly stood out from the rest. Even the Sanguinor (a fantastic model in itself, no matter what this thing is supposed to be in the fluff) would look better with a standard jump pack instead of the wings. That's how I will model mine anyway. All in all, the wings, the uber-ornate design and the wrist-mounted boltguns remind me of some anime characters, not of the Blood Angels elite. A shame, if you ask me.

 

-In the current Codex, SG still serve as a retinue for Dante. A list with Dante can field up to 6 units of SG (30 members). A list without Dante can only field 3 and it would eat up all of their Elite slots. Realistically, a list without Dante is unlikely to have more than 1 unit of SG (and probably none). If you looked at all the lists without Dante, I bet you would find exponentially more HG than SG. Isn't this a fairly good fit for your notion of SG?

 

-Why does SG armor look similar to some HQ armor? Because it is all Artificer armor and all confers the same 2+ saving throw. (Frankly I think all of the named BA characters could use re-sculpts besides Gabriel Seth and Lemartes)

 

-Don't like the wings? Don't use them. SG look absolutely boss without them:

http://www.astronomican.com/showthread.php...d)&p=389616