Where are the Stormtroopers?

[Inquisitor =D=]

Ok, now that I have your attention. ;)

 

I've been a little curious in recent days. Why aren't people taking them?

 

Str3 Ap3 @ 18", 4+ save. And now with other support options like a swiss-army-monkey who amplifies the squad's abilities even further. Not amazing but useful, seems like a good option for a Coteaz based army eh? Top that off I find the models sleek and awesome. (and I have 40 of them....)

 

13pts/ trooper, 35pts/ monkey, 50pt Rhino. Hmm.... :huh:

 

Your thoughts everyone? :)

 

=]D[=

[Gentlemanloser]

SB Warriors are better. :woot:

[Inquisitor Fox]

I use the Stormtroopers, and don't think the Storm Bolter is inherently better. Sure it's cheaper and longer range, but not necessarily better.

 

I'd rather have the AP3 than a Stormbolter... we already have lots of those on the Grey Knights. What we lack is either high power weaponry, or low AP weaponry. Henchmen can take both things like plasma and melta, as well as hotshot lasguns. Solves both issues.

[stephane4985]

For me, I prefer regular bolter. They are cheap, they can still kill something, and anyway, for me, they are just buffer wounds anyway to the ones having melta.

[Chengar Qordath]

The hotshot does suffer from being a bit too narrowly-focused for an all-comers list, in my opinion. If you're not shooting at power armor, it's a lot of wasted points. Plus, needing to get into rapid-fire range will generally mean getting into "will be killed by the counterattack next turn" range for warriors.

 

SB Warriors do have the advantage of being able to stand-off at a safer distance.

[RolandTHTG]

Because carapace bolters at 9pts or carapace Stormbolters at 11pt are better vs non-marines, and can take advantage of the Jokero buffs better. I run both in my army, but ended dropping the hot-shot guys as not synergestic enough. For moving squads, SB are better, and for stationary squads, the bolter is 4 pts cheeper, and matches plasmagun range. For a BS3 model, you're just not getting enough hits to have a good chance of wounding marines.

I run IG too, and my IG stormtroopers are better at tank-hunting than marine hunting, and they have BS4, and are cheeper at 11pts/model than GK henchmen.

That was my reasoning. They may show up in appoclypse, but even then would likely be run as additional IG troopers, not henchmen.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Because I'm me, and I'm a dork...

 

The 3 weapons compared at rapid fire range, as well as their long range, against MEQ (T4, 3+), FEQ (T3, 4+), GEQ (T3, 5+)

 

MEQ

Hot-Shot (rapid fire): 0.3333 kills

Hot-Shot (long range): 0.1667 kills

Bolter (rapid fire): 0.1667 kills

Bolter (long range): 0.0833 kills

Storm Bolter: 0.1667 kills

 

FEQ

Hot-Shot (rapid fire): 0.5000 kills

Hot-Shot (long range): 0.2500 kills

Bolter (rapid fire): 0.3333 kills

Bolter (long range): 0.1667 kills

Storm Bolter: 0.3333 kills

 

GEQ

Hot-Shot (rapid fire): 0.5000 kills

Hot-Shot (long range): 0.2500 kills

Bolter (rapid fire): 0.6667 kills

Bolter (long range): 0.3333 kills

Storm Bolter: 0.6667 kills

 

So it shows about what I'd expect it to. Against Space Marines, the Hot-Shot Lasgun has the greatest damage output with the provision of range. It is equal to or superior to the Storm Bolter and Bolter at all ranges the Hot-Shot Lasgun can fire at. The Storm Bolter has a range advantage, but not a kills advantage. Better range on the move (but being as it's an assault weapon this is to be expected).

 

This statement holds true against a Tau or Eldar opponent, for the most part. This is where you begin to see a difference of the range of the Hot-Shot Lasgun. If you're within rapid fire range, the Hot-Shot is the better choice. If you're not, the Storm Bolter begins to outperform. So I'd call this one a washup (with the provision of range).

 

Against an Imperial Guard player, the Storm Bolter shines in both killiness and range.

 

So if we're going to really be nerds about it... you should determine which style of opponent you play regularly, and what the anticipated range and purpose of the Henchmen Warband is and pick your weapon appropriately. You also have to figure in advantages of range, and cost of the weapon itself. If you want kills per point spent.. well.. just do some division, I didn't want to really go that far, I just wanted something relatively quick and easy :woot:

[RedemptionNL]

When the target is in cover though, the bolter and stormbolter will either match or out do the performance of the hotshot, at longer ranges and cheaper point costs.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Those points are all totally true. Cover will ruin any "shooting army"'s day. If cover is prevalent in your local game scene you may want to plan around it. Personally, I've never really ran into enough situations that everything is ALWAYS in cover to warrent completely changing my loadouts. Mostly I construct my Henchmen Warbands with a general primary purpose, then as many neat nifty looking oddball models as I like. I mean, I went to great lengths to acquire a Squat, plan on converting an Eldar Harlequin for a DCA, and want to acquire some Necromunda Enforcers to be Arbites (as well as doubling as a Necromunda band just in case) sine their Carapace and Bolter would work pretty well. These are not the actions of someone who worries about something like how often the other player will have a 4+ cover save over their power armor save :lol:

 

Individual mileage varies, just like individual preference. The only thing the numbers show is naked probability. No one can predict or calculate what the armies and tables at your local game store are like, or if those people like to always hunker down in cover or go on the offensive. That's why Mathhammer isn't an answer... it's a way of analyzing the data or predicting an outcome. You have to analyze the numbers it generates and interpret them based on your army, your playstyle, your local scene.

[Gentlemanloser]

INP, you also don't take the cost difference into account. :D

[Inquisitor Fox]

Correct, I did not :lol: Quite intentionally, too... it's the same reason some people prefer melta in a list to plasma when their army has a 5 point difference between the two or something like that. It goes down to personal preference and if people feel the results are "worth it."

 

I tend to avoid special characters... thus I don't take Coteaz. I just run two Inquisitor HQs ;) For me, the point savings between the two only comes out to oh, 15 or 20 points total. For me, it's not worth considering. Some army lists or playstyles might find the 2 point savings per model armed with said weapons to be worth it.

 

I don't try to math hammer out if the point cost difference is worth it because it's not something I use to make my decisions. You are correct in that it is a factor that can be thought of and should be considered. If you need to shave off two or three points swapping your henchmen's weapons might be a good way to do it, or throw in one model with a bolter instead of a hot shot lasgun.

 

I try to do what any decent economist or statistician does. I present the data, attempt to draw what conclusions I can from it, point out arguments for either side, and if there's not one blatant glaring answer (like as an example, that psilencers just don't work out), waffle and let people decide for themselves :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, if you're looking at comparing the kills of three wepaons at two ranges versus three types of target, you can only get an accurate representation, if you adjust your results to take cost into account (I can't spell account tonight. /sigh)

 

Sure, 1 Hot Shot kills more Marins than 1 Bolter. But it costs 5 times as much, so you'd expect it to, right? Otherwise, why pay the cost for it?

 

But, for it's cost, it should kill 5 times the Marines the Bolter does. But it doesn't.

 

If you want an accurate chart, plot the kills per cost, it will give a more accurate reading of each weapons standing to each other.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Except weaponry in this game doesn't exist on a linear scale :P By that same logic, you're saying you'd expect a plasma gun to kill 10 times as many Marines as a bolter, since it cost 10 times as much for a henchmen to be equipped with one. Likewise you're trying to argue that a storm bolter would kill 3 times the number of enemy Marines as a regular bolter because it costs 3 times as much as the bolter. This also is not the case.

 

It's important to remember what you are trying to demonstrate and to use data that helps demonstrate or help understand the actual question you are trying to answer. I was not trying to demonstrate which weapon was most points efficient. I'm not plotting kills per point spent in that chart. All those numbers are demonstrating is the average deaths inflicted in a single round of firing. That's it. It's not designed to show point efficiency, or make an argument that the proper way to decide which weapon is best is by determining number of deaths inflicted on average per point spent on said upgrade.

 

If someone wants to use that as their own barometer to decide which way they should go, more power to them. I don't feel it's the best way to measure something that in this instance can't be "measured" anyway. There's too many qualitative variables in play to attempt to prove one is inherently better than another by quantitative mathematics. Compare that which can be compared directly (odds to inflict death, range of weaponry, etc), contemplate that which is qualitative by nature (How much cover do my games usually have? What range do I figure I'll be working in, etc), and come to a conclusion based on multiple factors.

 

What can be measured is what I did... anticipated deaths. If you want to really be picky, I'd be better served by moving the decimal points over two places and calling the results "% chance to inflict a wound in a single turn of firing" but I didn't because I was being lazy.

[Gentlemanloser]

AMG! I'm a numpty...

 

Utter missed;

 

and cost of the weapon itself. If you want kills per point spent.. well.. just do some division, I didn't want to really go that far, I just wanted something relatively quick and easy msn-wink.gif

 

/sigh

 

Just ignore me. :P

[Valerian]

Where are the Stormtroopers? They're hanging out in their new home in my buddy's IG army.

 

Valerian

[Inquisitor =D=]

I always love it when you reply to things Inquisitor Pyykkonen, always so positive. Its nice.

 

Top that off you've given me reason to field my 40 stormtroopers again. Now I just have to buy some swiss-army-monkeys...

 

And now for the next question, I've been using assault weapons since I started playing 40k. What role would these stormtroopers best fill?

 

=]D[=

[Gentlemanloser]

Stick them in a transport, roll up, disembark, Rapid Fire Hot Shots into Marines.

 

Not much else you can do with them. :lol:

[Inquisitor Fox]

Sadly, it also depends on what upgrades your monkey may give them. Hard to depend on that though, so...

 

If you're using them to fill a role that the rest of your army cannot, I'd go the plasma/melta/low AP firepower route. Those weapons are all shorter range, so with that intention a Chimera (or possibly Valkyrie if your group allows IA2, since the Land Raider here would be excessive) or Razorback is pretty mandatory. Those weapons also give most power armored players twitches, so you have to counter the firepower going into the unit somehow. I think a Valkyrie would really be the way to go if your group allows IA 2, as it gives you a lot more freedom and mobility with where you disembark and what units to support.

 

It's not really a question of what do you do with them on their own, it's supporting your other bits n bobs of your army with them. The henchmen as a whole can be very shooty with the Jokaero, warriors, "storm troopers", etc... it's just deciding which firepower is going to work best for the role you want.