What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Gree]

I always like “What if’’ scenerios concerning the Heresy and we’ve had our fair share with the Dornian Heresy. Recently, while re-reading Know No Fear Guilliman was mentioned as being a serious candidate to be Warmaster. That led me to pose the obvious question:

 

What if instead of Horus, Guilliman became Warmaster?

 

I would have thought he might have fallen in a trap like Davin, but apparently Guilliman was not corrupted by the same weapon that corrupted Horus, which raises the question of how the Heresy could have possibly proceeded then on.

[The Broker]

Athame != Anatheme

 

:D

 

Mind you, I think that under Guilliman, the role of Warmaster would have evolved into a sort of Galactic Governor, and his tendency towards the creation of scalable solutions would've meant that he would not have been under the same pressure that Horus was via governance (as is shown in Horus's reaction to the notion of taxing newly compliant worlds).

 

Mind you, I think he would have cracked down on the conduct of several legions(WE,NL,WS,etc) to the point that they would not have been viable allies of the IOM. However, I reckon that most of the Primarchs would see that his vision was what was best for the Imperium (seeing the 500 worlds of Ultramar as the utopia it is made out to be in KNF).

 

A heresy would probably still have occurred, possibly one still lead by Horus.

[Legatus]

The Heresy would have happened regardless. I don't think any of the traitor Legions had sided with Horus because he had been "the Warmaster". Every Legion had its own reason for turning traitor, or Horus was making a personal effort to bring them to his side. If anything, it would have made it easier for Horus to bring some of the Legions to turn against the Emperor. Other than Horus, Guilliman was not pandering to his brothers, and was instead calling them on their mistakes. So had the Emperor made Guilliman the Warmaster, Horus could have influenced Primarchs such as Angron or Mortarion by convincing them that the Emperor had made an unjust choice.

[awfulawful]

Chaos gods: Hey Horus, sucks that you got passed over for Warmaster. Want to worship us now?

Horus: OK!

[Corsair]

I think the Heresy may well have been bigger.

 

Guilliman doesn't seem to have had the love of his brothers in the way Horus did (respect, certainly, but not love).

 

Would the guys who thought they should have been Warmaster have fallen into line as easily as they did with Horus? What about the ones who supported Horus' claim?

 

Would they have been comfortable being led by the brother who seemed to be more interested in the non-military pursuits than the rest of them? I could see the more war-like Primarchs resenting having the "Governor" being put over them, regardless of the fact he was an incredibly accomplished commander; it would be like Lorgar being named Warmaster, or Vulkan, or Alpharius - guys known for traits other than, well, being masters of war.

[Aegnor]

Agree with some of the above - I think the most likely scenario is, the Heresy still happens with Horus still leading it. RG is brilliant, but already resented by several other Primarchs for his high achieving ways and willingness to make clear his high expectations of others. Give a skilled, charismatic diplomat like Horus, assuming he has a beef, that kind of flaw to exploit and he'd have had probably much the same group of Primarchs siding with him - he'd become the lightning rod for everyone who finds themselves annoyed with Guilliman.

 

Not being the Warmaster might have presented some additional hurdles for Horus to overcome, in terms of being able to order other Legions around/out of position, so the course of the Heresy may well have been different.

[Olis]

I think in this version of the HH Horus would not only be billed as the 'Warmaster' but the 'True Warmaster' on his way to rid the Imperium of a corrupt and unjust hierarchy. Just a thought I'd share.

[Kol Saresk]

It would have been worse. Like everyone pointed out, Gulliman had very few friends with his fellow Primarchs. I believe KNF mentions that he only got along with one other Primarch, but I can't remember who it was. And he didn't have the political skills Horus had either. Yes, he could run a government, but he had no tact as far as what Horus has done. It would never occur to Gulliman to compromise. Everything is absolutes.

 

And he didn't survive the same corruption Horus did. Horus was poisoned by an anathema and was lying on his death-bed when Erebus "jacked in"(sorry, only term I can think of) to Horus's mind and then corrupted him there. Although personally I think Erebus acted as a warp conduit of sorts while he was in there and the Chaos gods simply influenced his decision into joining them. But that's my own theory. Gulliman on the other hand was simply cut with a ritualistic dagger called a athame, which is believed to act as a physical anchor for the aether to flow through.(apparently the wiccans love this thing: but not all of them) So yes, Gulliman was exposed, but we have no idea on the comparison rate. Although this information, combined with the last sentence from that El'Johnson short that said Gulliman thought he should inherit the Imperium plus Gulliman's POV in Rules of Engagement brings up the question "Did he really escape corruption?"

[greatcrusade08]

but I can't remember who it was.

 

it was four primarches, Khan , Dorn, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus, the latter being the key to win any victory

[Captain Idaho]

No the Dauntless Few were Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. Khan was deemed too unpredictable.

 

There wouldn't have been a Heresy at all if Guilliman was Warmaster. Horus was close to Guilliman, one of the few who he considered friends. If Horus was not Warmaster then the pressure would have been off him and his loyalty harder to break, plus the Chaos Gods would have had to contend with Guilliman as their potential pawn instead, who didn't have the same pulling power to break others loyalty.

 

Only Horus could motivate all the Primarchs. The Primarchs who didn't like him were an obedient few, like Corax.

 

Still, that's my interpretation of all the back ground, though I think it's a fairly good one.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The Heresy would have happened, just probably less Primarchs and Legions would have turned. As long as he kept Horus onside, then this would have kept the DG. The others may have turned, bu it would have been a lot harder. And the Thousand Sons would not have been destroyed...

 

The Heresy would take a very different course.

[Coryphaus 101]

No the Dauntless Few were Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. Khan was deemed too unpredictable.

 

There wouldn't have been a Heresy at all if Guilliman was Warmaster. Horus was close to Guilliman, one of the few who he considered friends. If Horus was not Warmaster then the pressure would have been off him and his loyalty harder to break, plus the Chaos Gods would have had to contend with Guilliman as their potential pawn instead, who didn't have the same pulling power to break others loyalty.

 

Only Horus could motivate all the Primarchs. The Primarchs who didn't like him were an obedient few, like Corax.

 

Still, that's my interpretation of all the back ground, though I think it's a fairly good one.

I'm with Idaho. If Horus hadn't been made Warmaster, I highly don't he would have turned. The reason he did turn to start with was because he thought the Emperor had abandoned humanity, which he only got convinced of after he was wounded. If he wasn't Warmaster, Horus would've been under less pressure, able to think more and he would of become even more loyal than he was before Ullanor. Although, if Guilliman was made Warmaster, I don't think he could have done as good a job as Horus. Really, Horus was the only choice.

[Corsair]

Horus was not happy as Warmaster, but would he not have been unhappier if he wasn't Warmaster?

The guy was not exactly known for his humility.

I would be shocked if there was not a Heresy regardless. The Chaos Gods wouldn't have just given up because one candidate wasn't in place. Lorgar would still be waiting in the wings, and if Guilliman proved incorruptible, Horus could still have brought his brothers as allies against Guilliman's rule. Or maybe the Gods would have targeted the Lion, or Sanguinious, or Alpharius, or Perturabo, or Mannus, of whoever.

Few of the Primarchs were humble, and all of them believed that their way was the right way. The Heresy led by a corrupted Lion, for example, may not have gone the same way, and may not have occurred due to his charisma and the love of his brothers, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened or that it couldn't have been effective

Indeed, the Gods would have ensured it.

[AGPO]

I've always thought the role of Warmaster was one of the Emperor's (many) big mistakes. Horus's job was too big for one man, even a Primarch. It would have made a lot more sense to spread the roles out: Leave Guilliman to sort out the administration of the Empire, Horus and Sanguinius expanding the frontiers and acting as your chief diplomats to new worlds. Dorn and Perturabo could have taken care of fortifying existing Imperial territory.

[Watch-commander Albus]

I've always thought the role of Warmaster was one of the Emperor's (many) big mistakes. Horus's job was too big for one man, even a Primarch. It would have made a lot more sense to spread the roles out: Leave Guilliman to sort out the administration of the Empire, Horus and Sanguinius expanding the frontiers and acting as your chief diplomats to new worlds. Dorn and Perturabo could have taken care of fortifying existing Imperial territory.

 

This makes me think of whole new what-if: What if the Emperor appointed two war masters: Horus Lupercal and Rogal Dorn?

[Aegnor]

I don't think Horus would have been relieved or happier if he'd been passed over in favor of Guilliman. Horus had an ego that was considerable even before he began to be corrupted, and a sense of entitlement (which in fairness was largely merited) regarding his special relationship with the Emperor (working with him as an "only child" for decades). His genuine belief that he was the best man for the job, rather than RG, would have been a constant irritation to him and would have turned him against the Emperor. The Sons of Horus wouldn't have taken his being passed over as well as the Ultras did with RG - they clearly put enormous stock in being the premier legion, so Abbadon et al would have egged on Horus' sense of grievance.

 

And while I don't think RG had *no* friends among his brothers, Horus was much more popular.

[AGPO]

I think people underestimate Horus's loyalty. It took daemonic possession and the best efforts of Erebus and all four Chaos Gods to turn him and even then it wasn't a surefire thing. One of the saddest things about reading the books is how much Abnett makes you like Horus as a character before he is turned.

[calgar101]

Guilliman would have made a good Warmaster, he would have been able to handle the burdens placed upon him by Terra much better than Horus did, Guilliman already experienced in running a large administration. Remember Horus and Guilliman did get along, Horus looked up to Guilliman (and Dorn) as an older brother and valued his advice. Roboute wasn't as charismatic as his brother but by no means was he friendless, Guilliman looked at things differently and would broke excuses or failings that some of his brothers would have; for example Lorgar's worship of the Emperor or slow conquests.

Roboute would confront such issues head on, although I wouldn't say Guilliman was without diplomatic ability but when dealing with his brothers he'd be more head on.

I would say that Angron, Curze and their respective legions would most likely have butted heads with Guilliman.

 

A few things to consider;

 

Mortarions loyalty to Horus may not have been an issue.

Sanguinius, Dorn, Russ and Ferrus are counted as Guilliman's friends. Sanguinus is important here for his ability to mediate between his brothers.

 

Guilliman would be much more suited to being Warmaster in the 41st millennium.

[Legatus]

It would have been worse. Like everyone pointed out, Gulliman had very few friends with his fellow Primarchs. I believe KNF mentions that he only got along with one other Primarch, but I can't remember who it was. And he didn't have the political skills Horus had either. Yes, he could run a government, but he had no tact as far as what Horus has done. It would never occur to Gulliman to compromise. Everything is absolutes.

He didn't have "very few friends". He was not pandering to some of the problematic cases like Angron, Curze or Alpharius, which Horus did. But Guilliman did get along with the others.

 

I don't remember KNF mentioning that Guilliman only got along with one other Primarch, perhaps it is a passage I forgot. It mentions a few Primarchs with whom Guilliman believed he would win any scenario if teamed up with one of them. But other Primarchs are also mentioned favourably in that passage:

 

"'He said others were dead. At Istvaan.' Gage presses. 'Manus. Vulkan. Corax.'

'If that is true,' says Empion, 'it is a tragedy beyond belief.'

'Three sons. Three Primarchs, the loss is appaling,' agrees Guilliman. 'Four if you count Lorgar. Five, if what he says about Horus is true. And others, he said, had turned...'

Guilliman takes a deep breath.

'Corax and Vulkan I will mourn dearly. Manus I will miss most of all.'

Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright."

 

There you have are all remaining loyal Primarchs except for Jonson being favourable mentioned.

 

Also, I wouldn's exactly say that Guilliman wasn't one to compromise. You could even say that the decision to split the Legion had basically been one major compromise. And we have accounts of the details of the Codex decrees being discussed. The specific example talked about what ships Space Marines should have, and some even suggested that they shoudl have no own fleet at all. In the end they... compromised, and Space Marines would get powerful transport ships that would be able to deliver them where they needed to go, but no dedicated space warfare fleet.

 

As I said, Guilliman was not pandering to the troublemaker Primarchs. When pretty much every other Primarch was criticizing Alpharius for his eccentric approaches, and when no one was acknowledging the achievements of Perturabo, Horus was often the only one to speak up in their favour. Guilliman had even criticized Horus for a few questionable actions, but other than the more moody primarchs, he had pacified Guilliman by conceding the point, and had not reacted emotional.

[Kol Saresk]

I think people underestimate Horus's loyalty. It took daemonic possession and the best efforts of Erebus and all four Chaos Gods to turn him and even then it wasn't a surefire thing. One of the saddest things about reading the books is how much Abnett makes you like Horus as a character before he is turned.

Exactly. Gulliman just took a knife cut to the throat. Two different things.

 

And let's look Horus's pride, when he finds out the Imperial Governor at Davin(If I remember right it was someone he knew personally) he goes there faster than all can be and unleashes the gates of hell on his butt. He took things serious. And Horus had no problem being Warmaster, his problem was bowing down to the early Lords of Terra. If the Emperor had been the one giving orders to tax, Horus might not have even thought about it. The biggest problem for him was his pride. Anything that didn't fit struck him as a personal insult.

 

Then we got Gulliman. Yes he had four Primarchs he held in esteem. But even he doesn't think of them as friends, just allies he would need to win a battle. And he would have been calling everyone on their mistakes. He would have thought he was just helping. But seriously, how many people here have tried to do something and had someone watching over their shoulder and telling them every single little mistake from "You should put your battleship over here at these coordinates" to "Stop staying cuss words during battle, I don't care if your guts are spilling out."

 

And we also have to remember, Lorgar was reprimanded before the Warmaster was ever named. Those seeds of heresy had already been sown. He spent fifty years searching for, finding and then spreading the worship of the Chaos Gods, all the while preparing for the Heresy. That's one Traitor. Angron was still forcibly removed from his troops and forced to watch as they were slaughtered. Mortarion was still being corrupted by Typhus, however the devil he was corrupted. Magnus was still breaking the Edict of Nikea. Fulgrim would still meet the Laer. Basically, all the Traitor Primarchs were being lined up before the Warmaster was named. True, the final push over the edge wouldn't come for all of them until the outbreak of the Heresy, but they were at the cliff's edge.

 

If Horus had been passed over, that resentment would have been there, gnawing at the very core of his being. And while he wouldn't have carried the authority of Warmaster, he still probably have been able to fully turn the Traitor Primarchs(that hadn't already turned) and still break out the Heresy. It wouldn't have been as organized with Gulliman giving the orders, but still could have happened. Like I said, Horus was a good politician, he knew what deals to strike.

 

EDIT: We have to remember that Gulliman did become Warmaster. After the Heresy. He set up the current Imperium. Or at least was a major contributor to it.

[Billuriye]

Guilliman? Warmaster? Recipe for disaster. You wouldn't even need Chaos for Heresy.

[Conn Eremon]

No the Dauntless Few were Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. Khan was deemed too unpredictable.

 

There wouldn't have been a Heresy at all if Guilliman was Warmaster. Horus was close to Guilliman, one of the few who he considered friends. If Horus was not Warmaster then the pressure would have been off him and his loyalty harder to break, plus the Chaos Gods would have had to contend with Guilliman as their potential pawn instead, who didn't have the same pulling power to break others loyalty.

 

Only Horus could motivate all the Primarchs. The Primarchs who didn't like him were an obedient few, like Corax.

 

Still, that's my interpretation of all the back ground, though I think it's a fairly good one.

I'm with Idaho. If Horus hadn't been made Warmaster, I highly don't he would have turned. The reason he did turn to start with was because he thought the Emperor had abandoned humanity, which he only got convinced of after he was wounded. If he wasn't Warmaster, Horus would've been under less pressure, able to think more and he would of become even more loyal than he was before Ullanor. Although, if Guilliman was made Warmaster, I don't think he could have done as good a job as Horus. Really, Horus was the only choice.

 

It would appear my post yesterday never went through. I have a bad habit of clicking reply and closing the window too fast, I guess.

 

Anyway, what I wrote was basically this, though I do believe a Heresy would still occur. But its threat would be far, far less by virtue of it not being a unified force. It was hard enough for Horus to keep them cohesive during the key battles. You take him away, or you take away his title as Warmaster, and you no longer have one Heresy, but a collection of separate rebellions that might not even go off at the same time. Certain Legions would fall no matter what, I believe, but some of them might not have in this version, like Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

 

Honestly, I think we'd have more Missing Primarchs if 40k's history went that route, and little to no Traitor Legions come the 41st Millennium.

[Gree]

Guilliman? Warmaster? Recipe for disaster. You wouldn't even need Chaos for Heresy.

 

And why exactly would hew be so bad at being a Warmaster? Even without Chaos?

[AGPO]

Kol_Saresk has it right IMO. Horus wasn't the instigator of the Heresy. The Chaos Gods acted initially through Erebus Kor Phaeron and the Laer. Horus's charisma and respect amongst his brothers would have still made him the ideal target for the Dark Gods to lead their rebellion. If Guilliman had been Warmaster, I'm willing to bet Erebus would still have targetted Horus. Guilliman would have found it a lot harder to corrupt Angron, Perturabo and Alpharius without the good relationships Horus had. If Chaos had targeted another champion, it would most likely have been Sanguinius or Dorn rather than Robote.

[Billuriye]

And why exactly would hew be so bad at being a Warmaster? Even without Chaos?

 

He's not charismatic nor expansive like Horus. His mere presence seems to offend some Primarchs. Horus is over achiever too but everybody except Corax finds him pleasant. He's not good enough to conceal his arrogance like Horus. Even Ultras find him unbondable and austere. He may put already discontent primarchs off with his attitude and strict standards. Given his charisma, many would favor Horus over Guilliman, creating clashes of ego.