Ubermensch Commander Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 But unlike Guilliman, Magnus didn't have much choice in the matter. In Prospero it was either Chaos or end of Thousand Sons and himself. Guilliman was tightly pressed in Calth, true, but never to the point where the only salvation came from Chaos. Same with flesh change. If he didn't take Tzeentch's aid, he would kiss his legion goodbye. Poor Magnus got played hard. Magnus, gave in, slowly and incrementally, with each tiny step justifiable to himself, (just 5 more minutes on Skyrim, just one more biscuit) we've all been there, he started to fall before the Emperor even found him. Rik And he fell long after the Emperor found him and warned him of the dangers in the warp. He entrusted him with secrets and still the Magnus, in his pride, kept on playing with fire. Even after a decree explicitly giving a cease and desist and the clear repercussions of continued sorcerous study, Magnus continued on in direct defiance of this decree. He had EVERY choice in the matter, over decades, but made the wrong one every time. But that is tangential to Guilliman becoming Warmaster. It is largely unfair to call Guilliman's actions selfish, since though they benefited him, it benefited the Imperium. All was put forth in service of the greater good of the empire. He did become Warmaster for a time and rather than go mad with power, set up a series of divisions of power to ensure no Horus ever emerged again, including himself. He formally GAVE UP a metric *cuss* ton of power and influence to hold to his code. Rather like the Roman Emperor Diocletian, he saw what needed to be done to save the Empire and took those steps, even splitting his own power. That is, of course, another reason I do not believe Guilliman would have been corrupted ala Horus. He had been tested by power and he had been tested by Chaos. He succumbed to neither. Now, could he have been duped? Oh yeah. But corruption and power hunger seem unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 He could have not continued to look into the acrane when the Emperor told him to stop. The fall of Magnus was not due to the Battle for Prospero. It had been orchestrated from the day of his arrival on that world, and at certain points in his life he potentially could have broken free of that destiny. Though the odds were perhaps stacked against him, and really that's what makes his background so interesting. He could, but then again would still have to face flesh change threatening to swallow his whole legion. People forget that Magnus' craving for knowledge and power has a desperate edge to it. If not for sorcerous dabbling he couldn't strike a deal with Tzeentch, biding his time. Even without Wolves, his legion was just a ticking timebomb. While i agree with you on Guilliman's trials on a level, i still think Magnus and Guilliman's trials don't compare. RG showed restraint and considerable willpower and probably wouldn't make the mistakes of Magnus but in the end he would still have to face a binary choice which is a)The entire legion goes down the crapper while you remain pure b)Legion is salvaged with the cost of your soul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You know, it's easier test someone who is already has a weakness. Saying Magnus was tested more than severely than Guilliman and comparing the two of them is a little bit misleading, since Magnus spent much of his conscious in the Warp, ergo was at direct risk more often. And really, it's not a competetion! Guilliman had his Legion smashed apart, was held impotent whilst his brother's Legion executed his people and killed millions on the planet for sport, all before his very eyes. Such things are traumatic enough to weaken one's resolve. Look what it did to Perturobo. I think Guilliman took his licks just as much as anyone else, as much as people like to think he had it easier than everyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I do think he had very solid foundations in his upbringing. He was more fortunate in that than many other Primarchs. But pretty much everything that followed his introduction into the Imperium was his own achievement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 But that is tangential to Guilliman becoming Warmaster. It is largely unfair to call Guilliman's actions selfish, since though they benefited him, it benefited the Imperium. All was put forth in service of the greater good of the empire. He did become Warmaster for a time and rather than go mad with power, set up a series of divisions of power to ensure no Horus ever emerged again, including himself. He formally GAVE UP a metric *cuss* ton of power and influence to hold to his code. Rather like the Roman Emperor Diocletian, he saw what needed to be done to save the Empire and took those steps, even splitting his own power. That is, of course, another reason I do not believe Guilliman would have been corrupted ala Horus. He had been tested by power and he had been tested by Chaos. He succumbed to neither. Now, could he have been duped? Oh yeah. But corruption and power hunger seem unlikely. I'm glad others see this. Guilliman is routinely misjudged. Guilliman had all the power Horus ever did, and more. And yet he remained uncorrupted. And that was because while both Horus and Guilliman were proud and arrogant, Guilliman only needed the validation of the Emperor. The whole father/son dynamic comes into play with many of the Primarchs. Lorgar fell to Chaos because he had daddy issues. Guilliman, on the other hand, did everything right, and was rewarded for it, and was satisfied with that. Horus did everything right too, but he was too worried that he was going to be abandoned once the Crusade ended. Guilliman's upbringing helped with some of this. Many of the primarchs had risen to be great warlords, or kings. By the time the Emperor found Guilliman, Roboute was already an emperor in his own right. I don't think he was ever at risk of being tempted by Chaos because he only needed to know the Emperor loved him, and that he'd have a place in the family, so to speak. Guilliman was incorruptible because Chaos had nothing to offer him. he knew he had a place in the Imperium after the Great Crusade and was content with it. In the same vein as Diocletian, there were several values that were important to Roman men. Duty was one of them. Guilliman knew what his duty was. It would have taken a pretty exhaustive trick to get Guilliman to turn, because he wasn't inclined to act rashly either. People like to tear down Guilliman because he seems "too good". The funny part is, he's no more guilty of this than Sanguinius. Sanguinius truly has no flaws. He just had the good grace to die and become the tragic hero. Guilliman had the poor taste to be The Good Son, and to not die in the process. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Not sure RG makes the right choices though After all the primordial annihilator states that if gulliman dies at calth the emperor will win as he will get the reinforcements he requires and asks lorgar to let him live. However well intentioned he does what the PA needs him to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The Primordial Annhilator, also known as Tzeentch? The Chaos God known to manipulate his mortal pawns in webs of deceit to further some unfathomable goal? He said Guilliman's death would result in the Emperor's victory without any deeper explanation as to why? Yeah I'm not buying it. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Not sure RG makes the right choices though After all the primordial annihilator states that if gulliman dies at calth the emperor will win as he will get the reinforcements he requires and asks lorgar to let him live. However well intentioned he does what the PA needs him to do. That story seems quite obviously a lie. After all Tzeentch began the story by saying that for every truth he has to tell a lie. Tzeentch lied to Lorgar in order to keep him from going to Calth because he knew that the Word Bearers would lose and Lorgar would be killed in the process. After all, the confrontation he shows to Lorgar is almost identical to the confrontation between Kol Phaeron and Guilliman. What Tzeentch left out was the ending of the confrontation where Guilliman guts him while he gloats. Hence why at the end of the vision, Guilliman smiles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 What Tzeentch left out was the ending of the confrontation where Guilliman guts him while he gloats. Hence why at the end of the vision, Guilliman smiles. Thats very nice story you made up but there is no evidence for it. actually Tzeentch/Kairos states that gullliman smiles because he knows he was right about Lorgar being a traitor he can only lie once right. Plus its stated he bound at this point to only tell the truth plus they don't seem to scared to tell him not to fight Corax you will die or that he might be killed if he get involved in the Magnus vs Russ fight So they directly warn him how avoid getting himself killed so Lorgar is not a man who needs to be tricked into taking the cowards way for the greater glory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 actually Tzeentch/Kairos states that gullliman smiles because he knows he was right about Lorgar being a traitor Odd. In 'Know no Fear', Guilliman doesn't suspect Lorgar to be a traitor at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 It's entirely possible the part of one truth and one lie was a complete lie itself, and Lorgar was told what ever they wanted to manipulate him. Infact, it's more likely than not! I find it hard to believe the death of Guilliman would have changed the disruption of the Warp from reinforcing Guilliman's Legion. I'm sure victory or death, the Imperium would have reinforced the Ultramarines if they could! Of course it's possible Guilliman could do something that enables Chaos to win at a later date but right now we have reason to think that, as it isn't even hinted at yet. Besides that, the conclusion Lorgar doesn't need to be tricked to take the "cowards way to victory" is a little unfair on Lorgar. He was not a coward, at least in the physical sense. He cared little for his own belling as long as his greater purpose survived. In a way, he was a coward when it came to facing his concious and consequences for his choices. He wanted to die and Erebus and Kor Phaedron as representations of the Chaos Gods, DID try and stop him from confronting Corax. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3069982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 very good descriptions of guilliman that actually make sense and make me like him even more...:) If guilliman was warmaster-the heresy wouldnt of happened, or if it did, it would of been a minor incident... Just my opinion..no offence intended... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3070245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Not sure RG makes the right choices though After all the primordial annihilator states that if gulliman dies at calth the emperor will win as he will get the reinforcements he requires and asks lorgar to let him live. However well intentioned he does what the PA needs him to do. IF Guilliman KNEW this and chose to not sacrifice himself then you're spot-on, however, there's no indication that he's heard anything of the sort and certainly not from any "reliable" (read not a Daemon) source. Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3071694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 And we assume that Guilliman is Draigo in disguise? That he is incorruptible and stuff? I do assume that. Because the Chaos Codices since 2nd Edition tell us that "all Primarchs were sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test". You can assume that the Chaos Gods "didn't really try", but they succeeded with eight of the other non-warmaster Primarchs, yet not with Guilliman (among the nine loyalists). And since it does say "sorely", I personally don't assume that Chaos didn't really try. There is a major difference in views between us, so it's probably better to leave everything as is. I believe, that there is no such thing as 'incorruptible' in Wh40K, there is only 'not yet corrupted' or 'resisted that particular corruption instance'. Chaos is not a test that you pass once in a life and forget about it. It's a constant struggle, and every living second you can slip and fall in it's clutches. This struggle ends only with your death (and even then it's not always so), and only after one is dead, we can say that 'he was uncorrupted'. There are certain individuals, that resist corruption on a regular basis, such as Gray Knights, Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle. Some of them choose the only way to protect themselves against chaos - by leaving nothing for chaos to corrupt, by becoming a singular idea of loyalty and servititude to the Emperor (that, I believe, is the source of Sisters' resistance to corruption). Some of them choose to follow a narrow path of balance between corruption and loyalty, but as we see with many Inquisitors, they often fall from grace. So when I read a line about primarchs being tested by chaos, but resisting the temptation, I understand it as 'in that instant he was tempted, but resisted', not like 'he was once tested, resisted attempt and became immune to futher corruption'. But that's where our opinions start to differ, and as they differ fundamentally, trying to agrue will lead to no good :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Then let me put it this way: Knowing what we do about Guilliman during the Crusade, the Heresy, the Scouring, and the following hundred years, makes the assertion that he would have turned seem far fetched. In particular since he acted as commander over all Imperial Forces for about a decade during the Scouring. The conclusion that he would have remained loyal, had he been made warmaster, is far more likely, and better supported. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Then let me put it this way: Knowing what we do about Guilliman during the Crusade, the Heresy, the Scouring, and the following hundred years, makes the assertion that he would have turned seem far fetched. In particular since he acted as commander over all Imperial Forces for about a decade during the Scouring. The conclusion that he would have remained loyal, had he been made warmaster, is far more likely, and better supported. Don't you think that circumstances and contexts had a lot to do with that, though? If it was, for instance, Horus in those roles rather than Guilliman, just because we know Horus can fall, as he did in the Horus Heresy, doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't have stayed loyal in those circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Not sure RG makes the right choices though After all the primordial annihilator states that if gulliman dies at calth the emperor will win as he will get the reinforcements he requires and asks lorgar to let him live. However well intentioned he does what the PA needs him to do. IF Guilliman KNEW this and chose to not sacrifice himself then you're spot-on, however, there's no indication that he's heard anything of the sort and certainly not from any "reliable" (read not a Daemon) source. Rik You misunderstood I saying that the ultramarines would taken a better more successful Path without him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 What Tzeentch left out was the ending of the confrontation where Guilliman guts him while he gloats. Hence why at the end of the vision, Guilliman smiles. Thats very nice story you made up but there is no evidence for it. actually Tzeentch/Kairos states that gullliman smiles because he knows he was right about Lorgar being a traitor he can only lie once right. Plus its stated he bound at this point to only tell the truth Go back and read that scene again. The first thing Tzeentch tells him is that for every truth, he has to tell a lie. And then immediately tells him that in that situation, he is bound to only tell the truth. Lorgar sucked at math, but I'm sure you can do better. One truth: Must tell one lie for every truth. One lie: Right now, I'm only going to tell you the truth. :) Lorgar was a sucker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 What Tzeentch left out was the ending of the confrontation where Guilliman guts him while he gloats. Hence why at the end of the vision, Guilliman smiles. Thats very nice story you made up but there is no evidence for it. actually Tzeentch/Kairos states that gullliman smiles because he knows he was right about Lorgar being a traitor he can only lie once right. Plus its stated he bound at this point to only tell the truth Go back and read that scene again. The first thing Tzeentch tells him is that for every truth, he has to tell a lie. And then immediately tells him that in that situation, he is bound to only tell the truth. Lorgar sucked at math, but I'm sure you can do better. One truth: Must tell one lie for every truth. One lie: Right now, I'm only going to tell you the truth. :P Lorgar was a sucker. Here's another lie; "I'm bound to tell one lie for every truth." ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Then what's the truth? I mean, we can be childish about this, but let's try to stick to the material as written. Aren't you a moderator? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Then what's the truth? I mean, we can be childish about this, but let's try to stick to the material as written. Aren't you a moderator? You shouldn't accuse people of being childish when they make an entirely valid point, that's called flaming and could net people warnings if they are reported. Instead of taking the text literally, another entirely fitting interpretation is there was no "truth" as you know it, the Daemon was manipulating Lorgar so he'd do what the Chaos Gods wanted. Part of that manipulation was to make Lorgar believe part of what would be said would be true etc. Any good author should create plots, twists and conversations between characters that aren't black and white and up to the readers to work out.. Often 40K players take a read of published materials and take everything at face value, but we should give more credit to the authors as there is often more to what we read than what we think. I think it's a sympton we get from having Codex books working alongside novels, as the Studio material often deals with absolutes and 40K fans aren'y used to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3075830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Lorgar was a sucker. Lorgar wanted the emperor worshiped as a god and be a god He was pretty successful he even got the emperor to go his way with some help from his friends Of course it might be the the events that lead to ultramarines to saving the emperor that only occur in the event of RG's death maybe RG manges to stop the warp storm ritual in the course of his death - with no warp storms the loyalists would able communicate, organise and reinforce each other Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3077688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Go back and read that scene again. The first thing Tzeentch tells him is that for every truth, he has to tell a lie. And then immediately tells him that in that situation, he is bound to only tell the truth. Lorgar sucked at math, but I'm sure you can do better. One truth: Must tell one lie for every truth. One lie: Right now, I'm only going to tell you the truth. ^_^ Lorgar was a sucker. It is impossible to tell. Unless you are Tzeentch and tell which one is true or false of course. Which you assume you do. But you can't. Logic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3077699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 That is, of course, another reason I do not believe Guilliman would have been corrupted ala Horus. He had been tested by power and he had been tested by Chaos. He succumbed to neither.Now, could he have been duped? Oh yeah. But corruption and power hunger seem unlikely. Horus didn't fall because he was power hungry. He fell because of a superduper sword nearly killing him, only to be confronted by a Chaos sect. I do think that every Primarch would have been corrupted by that. EDIT : Tzeentch is awesome and outplay everyone. He's the god of Being-always-355642154-steps-before-you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3077746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 So Posible plot lines why RG death is bad for the forces of chaos 1) Blood angels effect maybe guillmans death effects the UM like sangs death did the ~BA-- maybe not exactly the same but something similar 2) RG acheives something which would not been possible with out his death/ultimate sacrifice 3)Ultramarines take a different path without RG- less logical maybe less clever that happens t o work out 4) RG death inspires a a fightback great men sometimes are greater in death than they ever were i n life Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/10/#findComment-3077910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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