What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Gree]

And why exactly would hew be so bad at being a Warmaster? Even without Chaos?

 

He's not charismatic nor expansive like Horus. His mere presence seems to offend some Primarchs. Horus is over achiever too but everybody except Corax finds him pleasant. He's not good enough to conceal his arrogance like Horus. Even Ultras find him unbondable and austere. He may put already discontent primarchs off with his attitude and strict standards. Given his charisma, many would favor Horus over Guilliman, creating clashes of ego.

 

So you claim that even without Chaos there would have been Civil War? Doubtful that the Primarchs would kill each other over somethign so petty.

[Billuriye]

Some of the primarchs have huge egos and bitterness. Evidently the relationships would sour beyond repair.

[chaplain belisarius]

interesting thought! the more i think of it the more i think-guilliman should of been warmaster (or possibly dorn or sanguinius? or all 3 in a triumvate?)

 

but then we wouldnt have the great events of the heresy-horus had to be warmaster and had to fall to chaos..if he didnt the background would be far less rich..

 

just my thoughts...

[Arkangilos]

And why exactly would hew be so bad at being a Warmaster? Even without Chaos?

 

He's not charismatic nor expansive like Horus. His mere presence seems to offend some Primarchs. Horus is over achiever too but everybody except Corax finds him pleasant. He's not good enough to conceal his arrogance like Horus. Even Ultras find him unbondable and austere. He may put already discontent primarchs off with his attitude and strict standards. Given his charisma, many would favor Horus over Guilliman, creating clashes of ego.

 

So you claim that even without Chaos there would have been Civil War? Doubtful that the Primarchs would kill each other over somethign so petty.

 

Angron, Perturabo, Kurze, and Mortarion would have. None of them embraced Chaos before they sided with Horus. Mortarion only started worshiping Nurgle because Typhus forced them to, Angron just killed so many people that he eventually fell into it, Perturabo was pissed at the Imperium, and Kurze felt betrayed by the Emperor anyways.

 

So yes, even without Chaos, there probably might have been at least a smaller one. At least little rebellions. All it takes is one person stepping on the toes of another, and the four I listed would probably be glad to jump in.

[calgar101]

Perturabo only fell because his legion was always used as a garrison force, Guilliman fought alongside Perturabo and Horus once the reult led Roboute to chastise Horus for leaving the world too quickly. Now I reckon Guilliman would've seen the problem of stretching the Iron Warriors too far and perhaps preventing their rebellion?

[chaplain belisarius]

guilliman would of viewed the way the IW were treated as a poor inefficient usage of manpower...he would of rotated the duties of garissoning ensuring his troops were kept fresh..

[Gree]

Some of the primarchs have huge egos and bitterness. Evidently the relationships would sour beyond repair.

 

I doubt anyone would go for open rebellion over something so ridiculously as petty s the appointment of Warmaster, especially if Horus was not corrupted by Chaos.

 

Angron, Perturabo, Kurze, and Mortarion would have. None of them embraced Chaos before they sided with Horus. Mortarion only started worshiping Nurgle because Typhus forced them to, Angron just killed so many people that he eventually fell into it, Perturabo was pissed at the Imperium, and Kurze felt betrayed by the Emperor anyways.

 

Angron was certainly worshipping chaos by the time he fell through with Horus, and the catalyst for Peturabo and Mortarion was Horus and Lorgar’s own manipulations and words. And Kurze was simply insane, but that was not any fault of Guilliman.

[chaplain belisarius]

in my opinion the heresy would not of happened...

[The Broker]

There wouldn't have been a Heresy at all if Guilliman was Warmaster.

 

I consider this unlikely, I believe Codex:SM(or BT) mentions that for a time it looked like the splitting of the legions would cause a second heresy.

 

Bearing in mind that this might have chosen the loyal and reasonable Primarchs to rebel, I doubt Guilliman would have been able to impose his procedures on the likes of Angron and Curze. And he would definitely (and rightly, IMO) take them to task for the state of the worlds they brought to compliance.

[chaplain belisarius]

but that opens up a whole new argument..the splitting of the legions was guillimans reaction and solution to the events of the heresy..no heresy, possibly no splitting of the legions?

 

my thoughts..no offence intended..

[The Broker]

but that opens up a whole new argument..the splitting of the legions was guillimans reaction and solution to the events of the heresy..no heresy, possibly no splitting of the legions?

 

my thoughts..no offence intended..

 

But even before the Heresy, it's mentioned that he suggested to others that they should follow his military procedures (Alpharius, and in KNF it's stated that he's given a copy of his military doctrines to all the Legions as an example), so it's not beyond belief that with the added power (and responsibility) of being Warmaster, he would impose his doctrines on the Legions.

[Ubermensch Commander]

It is likely a Heresy would still occur though it is unlikely to have occurred on such a grand scale, barring certain scenarios.

The broken or weak Primarchs, such as Lorgar, Angron, and Kurze, still had their issues.

They certainly would have been enraged with Guilliman due to his refusal to allow their psychoses to continue unchecked. What was heated disagreement over conduct and behavior between brothers transforms into a military superior ordering them to get their act together.

Horus' great advantage over Guilliman, he could use the tools he was given, using charisma and keen understanding of psychology to (roughly) fuse such strong ego to a singular goal.

 

Horus remains the only one I can think of to lead a Heresy in the Warmaster Guilliman scenario. I do believe he would still be turned, the possession and turning still occurring, only without Horus position as Warmaster. Likely he would have attacked a Davin-like planet, if only to still prove his place as his father's "favored" son and greatest general. Horus would show that "pencil pusher" who should lead the armed forces of the Imperium. Mind you, I am not saying that is Horus opinion of Guilliman, since in Heresy books Horus demonstrates high regard for the Ultramarines Primarch. But jealous will do ugly things between peers and brothers, especially those with substantial egos.

I also do not think the traitors roster would have been as large, even if only by a Legion or two.

 

 

For example, the Thousand Sons are unlikely to have turned, at least not in the same fashion. Without Horus to whisper in the ear of Russ, urging him to switch settings from "apprehend" to "KILL", the T-Sons would have been brought back as prisoners to Terra.

It is also not unreasonable that Guilliman would not have sent Russ to apprehend Magnus or sent a delegation of his trusted subordinates to oversee the matter, knowing Russ' feelings about Magnus and sorcery.

 

On that same note, it is very possible that Guilliman, in the face of resistance or simply due to his own methodology, would have attached Ultramarines all about the Imperium, breaking off pieces of his Legion to act as his eyes, ears, and mouth, facilitating swifter and more efficient communication and reducing response time. As seen in KNF, Guilliman values accurate information.

Interestingly enough, I see this as a double edged sword. It would be this division which would almost entirely snuff out a "Heresy" revolt before it happened and also give it a shot at succeeding.

 

Certainly the Istvaan massacres are unlikely. Guilliman took on rebuilding the Imperium when it was cracked and bleeding after the Siege of Terra. It is unlikely he would have been susceptible to Chaotic corruption as Warmaster during the height of the Imperium's power. Without a Chaos pawn in place to arrange the "pieces" properly, the Istvaan massacres are unlikely to occur and certainly would not have had the impact they did. Not impossible, since Horus could set up a "revolt" and still lay the trap, but without the ability to order all the disparate Loyalist forces to the far flung corners of the Imperium, it would likely have been a short lived revolt. Allowing for Horus's own military genius, it seems unlikely he would tip his hand in such a fashion. He would instead use proxies and try a more subtle maneuver.

 

With Guilliman as Warmaster, I see the Heresy more likely occurring along the lines of an assassination attempt, with corrupted Ultramarines infiltrating Terra and other key sites before "opening the gates" to a lightning strike attack from enemies without.

Allowing for the scenario presented, it is possible that forces of the Night Lords, World Eaters, and others would have been gaoled and brought to trial for excesses(and/or an Istvaan style revolt). The battles would have been brief and surprisingly bloodless, given the ferocity of the Legions in question but this is chalked up to Guillimans tactical brilliance and the in-depth knowledge provided by the Ultramarine forces attached to his brothers Legions. The truth, is far more sinister. Bypassing the formidable defenses of Terra, being brought to the Throneworld in chains, the Traitor Legions are in a prime position to strike. What was to be a symbol of Imperial Justice, demonstrating that none are beyond the Emperor's decree, per the suggestion of the Emperor's First Son Horus now became a hidden dagger at the Imperium's vitals.

T-Sons on Terra act as massive conduits for warp forces, bridging the gap twixt the material and Immaterium, unleashing a plague of demons upon the throne-world of the Imperium. The "imprisoned" Legions are released by the Ultramarine wardens, corrupted due to long travels amidst the Traitors, rising up fully armed and on the WRONG side of the barricades. Bloodshed, betrayal, heresy, etc ensues.

 

Just some preliminary thoughts.

[AGPO]

One thing worth considering is whether Horus would have attacked Davin had someone else been in charge. Had Guilliman, or Dorn, Fulgrim or Sanguinius for that matter been in charge, they would have seen that the personal betrayal was clouding Horus's judgment and pulled him from the mission. Erebus may well have found another method to corrupt him, but without Horus, it's unlikely you'd see a heresy on anything like the same scale. Of the traitor Primarchs, Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Alpharius all had a particularly close relationship to Horus. Of all the Primarchs, perhaps only Sanguinius was as close to as many of his brothers. Certainly, Dorn and Guilliman (and Magnus, Fulgrim and Lorgar for that matter) had a habit of rubbing many of them up the wrong way. Many were as loyal, if not more so to Horus than they were the Emperor, even before the Heresy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i think the Heresy was going to happen whoever was warmaster...

 

With the exception of the Death Guard, who sided with Horus out of personal loyalty, i believe the traitor legions woudl have rebelled regardless of who was the Warmaster.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Angron was certainly worshipping chaos by the time he fell through with Horus, and the catalyst for Peturabo and Mortarion was Horus and Lorgar’s own manipulations and words. And Kurze was simply insane, but that was not any fault of Guilliman.

 

What is your source? Nothing I have read says he turned to chaos before the Heresy.

 

And I was not blaming Guilliman for them turning, I am just saying that they would have still turned eventually.

 

Now that you brought Lorgar up, it reminds me just how much they hate the Ultra's. So either way, they would have still tried to corrupt the other ones, who still have their own issues with the Imperium. It still would have happened.

 

And even though Horus wouldn't be able to scatter everyone, the Crusades were still moving out, and someone could have still worked out a way to get the advantage. In fact, maybe they would not have gone strait for Terra, especially if it was led by Lorgar. Maybe they would have hit the Ultramarines first, wipe them out, and then head for terra.

[Aegnor]

I think the Emperor would have been better served by naming a triumvirate, rather than just Horus, as Warmaster. Horus and Guilliman are both the two greatest Primarchs out of the Great Crusade, and also compliment each other's strengths. Having two though sets up the possibility of disagreements without a ready means of resolving them. I would therefore include Sanguinius as the third member of the group - so there would always be a third member to be a casting vote should the other two disagree. Sanguinius is arguably third by merit anyway, but is also universely liked and known as having the Emperor's "soul".

[Coryphaus 101]

I highly doubt there would have been a heresy if Guilliman was Warmaster. I doubt Horus would get upset and sulk about it, he is supposed to be noble and he loved his father too much to disagree with him. I think Horus would've acted as an advisor to Guilliman(much as Guilliman and Dorn were to Horus), tried to help him keep some of their more wayward brothers in line.

 

Although I don't think Guilliman would've been a very effective Warmaster. Only Horus could have been Warmaster.

[Gree]

What is your source? Nothing I have read says he turned to chaos before the Heresy.

 

Galaxy in Flames. As early as Istvaan V Angron the World Eaters were worshipping the Eightfold path.

 

Plus I said nothing about them worshipping it before the Heresy.

 

And I was not blaming Guilliman for them turning, I am just saying that they would have still turned eventually.

 

At least one of the reasons given for Peratubo's fall was his Legion being pushed too far and split up, with some of ity implied as Horus's fault. I doubt Guilliman would allow such inefficency to happen, thus I doubt Peratubo would fall.

 

As for Mortarion, again it was seemingly only Horus that actually pushed them. Otherwise I doubt Mortarion would do anything.

[ZAChos]

As an Ultramarine, it hurts me to say it, but I think the only primarch that could've handled the role in it's entirety was Sanguinius. He has the charisma to carry it off. Everyone liked him. Our primarch didn't have that ability to bring radically different people together in the same way Sanguinius could, so if RG had been made the warmaster I do think a heresy would've occurred, possibly led by Horus still. The difference would be, however, Horus wouldn't of had the authority to order the Ultramarines to Calth, and so they wouldn't have gathered in large numbers unprepared for an attack. The Horus heresy with a near full strength Ultramarine legion would be an entirely different outcome.

[Arkangilos]

I think the Emperor would have been better served by naming a triumvirate, rather than just Horus, as Warmaster. Horus and Guilliman are both the two greatest Primarchs out of the Great Crusade, and also compliment each other's strengths. Having two though sets up the possibility of disagreements without a ready means of resolving them. I would therefore include Sanguinius as the third member of the group - so there would always be a third member to be a casting vote should the other two disagree. Sanguinius is arguably third by merit anyway, but is also universely liked and known as having the Emperor's "soul".

 

Agreed.

 

I also like what ZAChos said.

 

Plus I said nothing about them worshipping it before the Heresy.

 

Oh, well my bad then :tu:

 

 

As for Mortarion, he still had Typhus, who did worship Nurgle already, so I think they still would have fallen, especially with the Word Bearers pushing them.

[Corsair]

If RG was Warmaster I think you have to consider that there may well have been other Legions who might have joined Horus' hypothetical rebellion instead.

 

Maybe the Khan, for example, doesn't like the Ultramarines or that he is considered untrustworthy by the guy who has just been made his boss, and Horus' talk of showing the Emperor that HE, a warrior first and foremost, should have been put in charge instead of their brother who is more interested in governing than conquering?

 

The thing with alternate history (even pretend alternate history) is that there is a knock on effect; if someone else was named Warmaster, it does not automatically follow on that the rest of the Legions would fall out in the same ways on either side of the equation; indeed, the Heresy could instead be a protracted defensive battle where one Legion rebels because the Emperor wants to retire them after a successful Great Crusade, only to be joined by others as they flee away from Terra.

[Olis]

I think Guilliman considered Khan to be unpredictable, not untrustworthy - two entirely different concepts, brother.

[Corsair]

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I think Guilliman considered Khan to be unpredictable, not untrustworthy - two entirely different concepts, brother.

 

From Legatus' post on the first page of this thread, itself quoting Know No Fear:

'Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy'

[Kol Saresk]

"'He said others were dead. At Istvaan.' Gage presses. 'Manus. Vulkan. Corax.'

'If that is true,' says Empion, 'it is a tragedy beyond belief.'

'Three sons. Three Primarchs, the loss is appaling,' agrees Guilliman. 'Four if you count Lorgar. Five, if what he says about Horus is true. And others, he said, had turned...'

Guilliman takes a deep breath.

'Corax and Vulkan I will mourn dearly. Manus I will miss most of all.'

Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright."

According to Dan Abnett, Gulliman thought of the Khan as both unpredictable and untrustworthy.

[Corsair]

Double post