What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Arkangilos]

"'He said others were dead. At Istvaan.' Gage presses. 'Manus. Vulkan. Corax.'

'If that is true,' says Empion, 'it is a tragedy beyond belief.'

'Three sons. Three Primarchs, the loss is appaling,' agrees Guilliman. 'Four if you count Lorgar. Five, if what he says about Horus is true. And others, he said, had turned...'

Guilliman takes a deep breath.

'Corax and Vulkan I will mourn dearly. Manus I will miss most of all.'

Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright."

According to Dan Abnett, Gulliman thought of the Khan as both unpredictable and untrustworthy.

 

That sounds more like he Admired the primarch, but could not trust the Legion. Notice, he said, "The White Scars" not "Khan"

[Corsair]

3048691[/url]']

3048686[/url]' date='Apr 27 2012, 04:21 AM']

3048201[/url]' date='Apr 26 2012, 09:01 AM']"'He said others were dead. At Istvaan.' Gage presses. 'Manus. Vulkan. Corax.'

'If that is true,' says Empion, 'it is a tragedy beyond belief.'

'Three sons. Three Primarchs, the loss is appaling,' agrees Guilliman. 'Four if you count Lorgar. Five, if what he says about Horus is true. And others, he said, had turned...'

Guilliman takes a deep breath.

'Corax and Vulkan I will mourn dearly. Manus I will miss most of all.'

Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright."

According to Dan Abnett, Gulliman thought of the Khan as both unpredictable and untrustworthy.

 

That sounds more like he Admired the primarch, but could not trust the Legion. Notice, he said, "The White Scars" not "Khan"

That'd be small comfort to you as a proud, noble warrior of the Imperium who leads and has shaped an army your new boss thinks is untrustworthy

[Olis]

3048681[/url]']

I think Guilliman considered Khan to be unpredictable, not untrustworthy - two entirely different concepts, brother.

 

From Legatus' post on the first page of this thread, itself quoting Know No Fear:

'Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy'

 

Whoops. I knew I should have checked that post. :huh:

[Brother Captain Andrew]

I imagine the Heresy would still have happened, it just would have been far less devastating. If I may explain:

 

I forget which of the books says it First Heretic I believe But each of the Primarchs was created to embody the aspect of the emperor, Horus (ambition), Magnus (Pschic power/learning), and Guilliman was the emperors reflection "heart and soul". Essentially I read this to mean that Guilliman could not be turned (see Know no Fear) because he was essentially an emotional copy of the emperor and being a "balanced" individual. Therefore, essentially the same Primarchs would turn to chaos because the same weaknesses would be employed by chaos to turn them. Only this time instead of being in a position to direct and ambush forces throughout the heresy, the chaos forces would have to deal with a coordinated enemy. I mean just think of all the advantages being warmaster gave Horus in his preparations:

 

Setting Russ on Magnus. Which turned the thousand sons and bloodied the wolves.

Isolating and Ambushing the Ultramarines. Stranding the largest marine force in all the legions and drastically reducing its strength (plus the fact that Erebus used the planet as a sacrifice to create the warp storms that made travel and communication impossible.

The turning of the Fabricator General. As Warmaster Horus was able to corrupt much of the mechanicum to his purposes.

 

With Guilliman as Warmaster none of the above likely happens. Now we are talking about essentially 200,000+ UltraMarines who would actually be able to fight against their true enemies in straight up battles rather than being murdered before they knew their brothers had turned traitor. As well as the Wolves being available to deal with traitors, the thousand sons possibly not have turning to chaos, and the traitors lacking a significant amount of support from Mars. This essentially makes the Horus Heresy, more like the major rebellion, which would likely being crushed before it even would have reached Terra (meaning the Emperor lives and completes the Webway enterance) and while the Galaxy still would have burned the Imperium would likely never have slipped into its downward spiral. Really, looking back at it I think that without corrupting the Warmaster, whoever it would have been, chaos would have lost its war with mankind before the first shots were fired.

 

Just my 2 cents anyway. :huh:

[Kol Saresk]

What is your source? Nothing I have read says he turned to chaos before the Heresy.

 

Galaxy in Flames. As early as Istvaan V Angron the World Eaters were worshipping the Eightfold path.

 

Actually Khârn is the only one seen doing that. Which would suggest that the members of the Lodges were either already worshipping Chaos(like Typhus) or were beginning to walk down that path(Like the Sons of Horus, Khârn and some of the Word Bearers, and the EC). And we do know from Typhus that because someone in the Legion worships Chaos, it doesn't mean the Primarch does.

 

And here's the thing, there were two Legions that excelled at siege warfare. One of them was picked over the other. The one who wasn't picked, felt this as an insult and a slight on his honor. However, the Warmaster, before his corruption, made the tactical, strategic decision to split the only siege Legion remaining to him in order to reinforce several vital points against any possible enemy. This further increased the Primarch's irritation as, to him, it meant that his Legion wasn't just as favored as his brother's, but wasn't even good enough to build a fortress on a glorious planet on Terra. Instead, he was only fit to watch over worthless frontier worlds.

 

Then there was another Primarch who showed his love for his father in the only way he knew how: by teaching the citizens of the newly-forming Imperium to love Him as well. But his love was rejected because it wasn't winning battles fast enough. And the Primarch who did it had no problem whatsoever slaughtering hundreds of civilians because they broke Imperial Law, even if it was in the way they showed their love for the Emperor who ruled over them. This put a seed of burning hatred and resentment that would later spill over in untold bloodshed of his "brother's" sons.

 

Another Primarch respected the warrior spirit in its totality and even loved those who would become his first warriors. But he would be forced to watch as his warriors were slaughtered to a man because his "father" whisked him away so he could bring other planets under the hell of the Imperium.

 

This fourth Primarch would waken to find himself on a planet filled murders and rapists who all lived under the cover of perpetual night. Somehow, he retained an innate understanding of right and wrong to a startling degree and set about teaching those who broke this moral code in the most gruesome of displays so that others could see and learn from their mistakes. But he would be tortured by visions of the future, showing his homeworld burning to ash and his own father killing him. Then he would be put in charge of a Legion of Warriors and would train them to kill a few of their enemies and prop them up to scare the rest into submission. While he was away, the proxy government set up by the larger Imperium would let his homeworld slide back into the criminal cesspool it was before his arrival. As a result, a Legion already trained to become terrorists, only became worse as lifelong murders and rapists began to join the ranks. Realization of this event did nothing to deter it, in fact it drove the Primarch into a deeper psychosis, eventually resulting in the nuclear bombing of an entire continent because there was religion found on a single island and culminating in the bombardment of his own homeworld.

 

A xenos Cabal receives visions and acts to alter this envisioned future by turning the most pragmatic Legion against its own Emperor, who it may or may not still cling loyalty to. Ironically, while the Cabal is seeking for a way for the Traitors to win the Heresy so Chaos would be destroyed, the Emperor(through second-hand means) receives a vision that the only way to win was to sacrifice himself and take his son with him. Which was the scenario that provided a victory for Chaos.

 

Yes Gulliman is a master strategist. But think about this, the Word Bearers were already setting up warrior lodges before the Warmaster was named. That would mean that there is already an inter-Legion infrastructure already being built. So even if a Loyalist was calling the shots, the Traitors could still coordinate. And while his orders were second to the Emperor, Kurze kind of proved that a Legion could ultimately do whatever the heck it wanted to, regardless of what anyone told it. So something like Istvaan could still happen. It would just have a bigger surprise to it.

 

Secondly, if Gulliman found out that Magnus had broken with the Council of Nikea, it would have probably been worse. He probably would have set several Legions on Prospero to ensure the eradication of the "lawless Astartes". Assuming how his manner in aiding in the punishment of Lorgar is anything to go by. In a way, Gulliman would have made some things worse and somethings better. The troubled Primarchs he simply would have told "Deal with it. I don't care if your planet makes Hell's Kitchen look nice this time of year, the Administratum will fix it. The Emepror made it. It will work." Gulliman was his father's son in a way that even Horus wasn't. It made him blind. It took actual daemons being summoned on his home turf for him to believe that the Edict of Nikea might have been a bad thing. And by then, Prospero would have already happened since Istvaan V was before the Burning of Calth, assuming same timeline.

 

And yes, he did admire the Khan. But by not trusting his Legion(the people that the Khan trusted), in a way he doesn't trust the Khan. It would be like a military strategist admiring Hitler for building an entire army under the noses of several countries who watched him like a hawk, but not agreeing with his philosophy of Nazism and eugenics.

[Arkangilos]

Blasphemies and Lies

 

Well said! Though I don't think he would have been worse to Magnus, so long as Magnus could prove his point. And since Magnus was actually there, he could have defended himself before the destruction the Ultra's did to the Word Bearer's prize world.

[Legatus]

I would read Guilliman's mistrust in the White Scars as being wary of their tendency to let things get out of hand.

[Gree]

And here's the thing, there were two Legions that excelled at siege warfare. One of them was picked over the other. The one who wasn't picked, felt this as an insult and a slight on his honor. However, the Warmaster, before his corruption, made the tactical, strategic decision to split the only siege Legion remaining to him in order to reinforce several vital points against any possible enemy.

 

Actually the Index Astartes Iron Warriors speculates that it was actually a corrupted Horus that did that in order to demoralize them. Regardless I doubt Guilliman would let something that was clearly pointed out to be inefficient and wasteful continue.

 

Actually Khârn is the only one seen doing that. Which would suggest that the members of the Lodges were either already worshipping Chaos(like Typhus) or were beginning to walk down that path(Like the Sons of Horus, Khârn and some of the Word Bearers, and the EC). And we do know from Typhus that because someone in the Legion worships Chaos, it doesn't mean the Primarch does.

 

I think it would be fairly obvious that Angron was already starting to worship Chaos at that time given the whole “Blood for Horus” thing.

 

And the Primarch who did it had no problem whatsoever slaughtering hundreds of civilians because they broke Imperial Law, even if it was in the way they showed their love for the Emperor who ruled over them.

 

Wrong. Guilliman explicitly stated that he did not want to do that in Know No Fear and that he felt uncomfortable with punishing Lorgar.

 

Yes Gulliman is a master strategist. But think about this, the Word Bearers were already setting up warrior lodges before the Warmaster was named. That would mean that there is already an inter-Legion infrastructure already being built. So even if a Loyalist was calling the shots, the Traitors could still coordinate. And while his orders were second to the Emperor, Kurze kind of proved that a Legion could ultimately do whatever the heck it wanted to, regardless of what anyone told it. So something like Istvaan could still happen. It would just have a bigger surprise to it.

 

And Lorgar himself stated that they needed a strong figurehead to lead them. At the very least, without the office of Warmaster, Horus would have a harder time of cloaking his plans and funneling resources.

 

Secondly, if Gulliman found out that Magnus had broken with the Council of Nikea, it would have probably been worse. He probably would have set several Legions on Prospero to ensure the eradication of the "lawless Astartes". Assuming how his manner in aiding in the punishment of Lorgar is anything to go by.

 

First of all it was the Emperor who originally gave orders to take out Magnus and sent Russ. And going by Guilliman’s own punishment of Lorgar he would probably try and talk to Magnus, given how explicitly he noted that he disliked punishing Lorgar and felt bad about it.

 

So yeah, I very much doubt Guilliman would act as you claim.

[Kol Saresk]

And here's the thing, there were two Legions that excelled at siege warfare. One of them was picked over the other. The one who wasn't picked, felt this as an insult and a slight on his honor. However, the Warmaster, before his corruption, made the tactical, strategic decision to split the only siege Legion remaining to him in order to reinforce several vital points against any possible enemy.

 

Actually the Index Astartes Iron Warriors speculates that it was actually a corrupted Horus that did that in order to demoralize them. Regardless I doubt Guilliman would let something that was clearly pointed out to be inefficient and wasteful continue.

How much fluff has changed since the IA articles? Quite a bit. For example, the Raven Guard originally used cloning to boost their ranks. Now it's uber-gene-seed.

 

Actually Khârn is the only one seen doing that. Which would suggest that the members of the Lodges were either already worshipping Chaos(like Typhus) or were beginning to walk down that path(Like the Sons of Horus, Khârn and some of the Word Bearers, and the EC). And we do know from Typhus that because someone in the Legion worships Chaos, it doesn't mean the Primarch does.

I think it would be fairly obvious that Angron was already starting to worship Chaos at that time given the whole “Blood for Horus” thing.

Horus does not necessarily equal Chaos. Yes, he was a pawn of Chaos, but if serving him meant worshiping Chaos then the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion would be worshipping Chaos.

 

And the Primarch who did it had no problem whatsoever slaughtering hundreds of civilians because they broke Imperial Law, even if it was in the way they showed their love for the Emperor who ruled over them.

Wrong. Guilliman explicitly stated that he did not want to do that in Know No Fear and that he felt uncomfortable with punishing Lorgar.

That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen again, if it was ordered by his beloved Father.

 

Yes Gulliman is a master strategist. But think about this, the Word Bearers were already setting up warrior lodges before the Warmaster was named. That would mean that there is already an inter-Legion infrastructure already being built. So even if a Loyalist was calling the shots, the Traitors could still coordinate. And while his orders were second to the Emperor, Kurze kind of proved that a Legion could ultimately do whatever the heck it wanted to, regardless of what anyone told it. So something like Istvaan could still happen. It would just have a bigger surprise to it.

And Lorgar himself stated that they needed a strong figurehead to lead them. At the very least, without the office of Warmaster, Horus would have a harder time of cloaking his plans and funneling resources.

Someone doesn't have to be in a position of power in order to be a figurehead. Just look at the modern Constitutional Monarchy. Or even the U.S. Presidency. The person in charge has virtually no power. The power lies with the Congress/Parliament. Hiding the plans would have been harder yes, no where have I ever denied that. But, the Traitors wouldn't necessarily be as isolated as we might think.

 

Secondly, if Gulliman found out that Magnus had broken with the Council of Nikea, it would have probably been worse. He probably would have set several Legions on Prospero to ensure the eradication of the "lawless Astartes". Assuming how his manner in aiding in the punishment of Lorgar is anything to go by.

First of all it was the Emperor who originally gave orders to take out Magnus and sent Russ. And going by Guilliman’s own punishment of Lorgar he would probably try and talk to Magnus, given how explicitly he noted that he disliked punishing Lorgar and felt bad about it.

 

So yeah, I very much doubt Guilliman would act as you claim.

Gulliman didn't try to talk to Lorgar, or the people he forced from their home. He went, kicked them out and then bombed the crap out of their city and anyone caught in the blast range. Exactly as he was ordered to do. The punishment for breaking the Edict of Nikea was death. And we can tell by the reaction of those in The Outcast Dead that is exactly what they expected to happen when the Emperor sent the Wolves of Russ to Prospero. So you're right, he would sit by and watch just like he did when Horus was Warmaster. Because he was ordered to.

 

And wasn't the original fluff written as a corrupt Horus sending the Wolves after Magnus?

[Billuriye]

I would read Guilliman's mistrust in the White Scars as being wary of their tendency to let things get out of hand.

 

Ferrus too, takes things to the extreme with his fervor and fanaticism (Dropsite fiasco) but he takes a place in Dauntless Few. I think RG simply doesn't like Khan enough.

[Gree]

How much fluff has changed since the IA articles? Quite a bit. For example, the Raven Guard originally used cloning to boost their ranks. Now it's uber-gene-seed.

 

But the fluff still stands, unless you have a new piece of fluff that clarifies the Iron Warriors situation.

 

Until then it's unclear exactly why Peratubo's Legion was split up, but I doubt Guilliman would stand for such obvious ineffciency, given how he was noted to have made cirtiques of Horus and Alpharius.

 

Horus does not necessarily equal Chaos. Yes, he was a pawn of Chaos, but if serving him meant worshiping Chaos then the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion would be worshipping Chaos.

 

No, it was the “Blood for.’’ Part I was talking about.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen again, if it was ordered by his beloved Father.

 

Then it would be under the Emperor’s orders, and no fault for Guilliman. Meanwhile if Guilliman was supposedly given a free reign as Warmaster then I doubt he would act like that.

 

Someone doesn't have to be in a position of power in order to be a figurehead. Just look at the modern Constitutional Monarchy. Or even the U.S. Presidency. The person in charge has virtually no power. The power lies with the Congress/Parliament. Hiding the plans would have been harder yes, no where have I ever denied that. But, the Traitors wouldn't necessarily be as isolated as we might think.

 

Bad example. The Imperium is not a democracy and the Warmaster is not a democratically elected figure or a figure operating with a constitution. He is a military leader in charge of other military leaders appointed to that position by the lord and master of the Imperium.

 

Gulliman didn't try to talk to Lorgar, or the people he forced from their home. He went, kicked them out and then bombed the crap out of their city and anyone caught in the blast range. Exactly as he was ordered to do.

 

Yes, because the Emperor was right there overseeing it. Had Guilliman been given a free reign to operate as he pleased then I doubt he would have sent several Legions to annihilate Magnus. Had the Emperor not been directly present at Monarchia, then I think it would have probably gone differently.

 

Either way, Guilliman will hardly be the bloody-handed fanatical tyrant you are painting him as.

 

The punishment for breaking the Edict of Nikea was death. And we can tell by the reaction of those in The Outcast Dead that is exactly what they expected to happen when the Emperor sent the Wolves of Russ to Prospero.

 

Actually that’s muddled. Deliverance Lost has Corax talking about how Russ went too far IIRC and about how he was only meant to bring Magnus back in chains. Prospero Burns frustratingly avoids any direct explanation of what exactly Russ was meant to do other than punish Magnus. There is currently several different versions of events floating about. One has the Emperor ordering Magnus’s death while others have Russ simply being ordered to brig Magnus back in chains and Horus twisting the orders.

 

So you're right, he would sit by and watch just like he did when Horus was Warmaster. Because he was ordered to.

 

That’s hardly a fault of Guilliman, as I pointed out. And I doubt he would have eagerly sent several Legions to destroy Magnus like you had claimed, or that he would have ignored the other Legion's problems. (The fact that he made effort to adress problems in Horus's doctrine that effected the Ultramarines speaks otherwise.)

[Kol Saresk]

How much fluff has changed since the IA articles? Quite a bit. For example, the Raven Guard originally used cloning to boost their ranks. Now it's uber-gene-seed.

 

But the fluff still stands, unless you have a new piece of fluff that clarifies the Iron Warriors situation.

True, we won't be able to find that out until that book with Fulgrim and Perturabo comes out.

Horus does not necessarily equal Chaos. Yes, he was a pawn of Chaos, but if serving him meant worshiping Chaos then the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion would be worshipping Chaos.

 

No, it was the “Blood for.’’ Part I was talking about.

There was a World Eater in The Outcast Dead who said something along the lines of "Blood for the Emperor."

That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen again, if it was ordered by his beloved Father.

 

Then it would be under the Emperor’s orders, and no fault for Guilliman. Meanwhile if Guilliman was supposedly given a free reign as Warmaster then I doubt he would act like that.

But sadly, we just don't know since it is a hypothetical situation.

Someone doesn't have to be in a position of power in order to be a figurehead. Just look at the modern Constitutional Monarchy. Or even the U.S. Presidency. The person in charge has virtually no power. The power lies with the Congress/Parliament. Hiding the plans would have been harder yes, no where have I ever denied that. But, the Traitors wouldn't necessarily be as isolated as we might think.

 

Bad example. The Imperium is not a democracy and the Warmaster is not a democratically elected figure or a figure operating with a constitution.

The Queen of Britain is not an elected official either. And Horus does have to bow down to the Lords of Terra. Which could be considered the 40k equivalent of a Congressional body. So no, not a bad example. Especially since I was pointing out that Horus could still be a figurehead for the Heresy without being Warmaster.

Gulliman didn't try to talk to Lorgar, or the people he forced from their home. He went, kicked them out and then bombed the crap out of their city and anyone caught in the blast range. Exactly as he was ordered to do.

 

Yes, because the Emperor was right there overseeing it. Had Guilliman been given a free reign to operate as he pleased then I doubt he would have sent several Legions to annihilate Magnus.

Again we just don't know. It's not how GW wrote it and speculating can only go so far. Manus was supposed to be the most cool-headed of the Primarchs. But he died in a fit of rage.

The punishment for breaking the Edict of Nikea was death. And we can tell by the reaction of those in The Outcast Dead that is exactly what they expected to happen when the Emperor sent the Wolves of Russ to Prospero.

 

Actually that’s muddled. Deliverance Lost has Corax talking about how Russ went too far IIRC and about how he was only meant to bring Magnus back in chains. Prospero Burns frustratingly avoids any direct explanation of what exactly Russ was meant to do other than punish Magnus. There is currently several different versions of events floating about. One has the Emperor ordering Magnus’s death while others have Russ simply being ordered to brig Magnus back in chains and Horus twisting the orders.

Then there is also the timeline conflict with the warning from Magnus coming after Istvaan III but before Istvaan V. So we just don't know. Especially since the authors aren't beholden to each other and the original account wasn't exactly crystal clear on the event, leaving it up to their interpretations.

So you're right, he would sit by and watch just like he did when Horus was Warmaster. Because he was ordered to.

 

That’s hardly a fault of Guilliman, as I pointed out. And I doubt he would have eagerly sent several Legions to destroy Magnus like you had claimed, or that he would have ignored the other Legion's problems. (The fact that he made effort to adress problems in Horus's doctrine that effected the Ultramarines speaks otherwise.)

Again, we just don't know. I could be wrong. He could have just sat by and watched as the Wolves did whatever they did. He could have made a peaceable solution. He could have slaughtered them to make sure that none escaped the reach of Imperial Law. We just don't know. In the end, this is the same as rumors: it is all speculation. I could be right, you could be right, the person hiding under a hole saying that Sigmar would be one of the missing Primarchs if Gulliman was Warmaster could be right because Horus was the Warmaster.

[Gree]

There was a World Eater in The Outcast Dead who said something along the lines of "Blood for the Emperor."

 

Which already indicates corruption in my eyes. Or at least blatent forshadowing.

 

But sadly, we just don't know since it is a hypothetical situation.

 

That’s why I’m trying to speculate. And after reading Guilliman in Know No Fear, he’s not a bad guy. He’s not unreasonable. I simply cannot see him doing that.

 

The Queen of Britain is not an elected official either.

 

She is not a badass military warlord commanding an entire legion of superhuman killers either. No offense, but her actual responsiblites are quite limited. The Warmaster heads a galactic Crusade. Horus repeatedly complains about the responsiblity of being Warmaster and all the work he has to do.

 

And Horus does have to bow down to the Lords of Terra. Which could be considered the 40k equivalent of a Congressional body.

 

Funny you should mention that considering that the grand total of what the Lords did appeared to be just bothering Horus about taxes. The Warmaster still had authority over the other Primarchs.

 

But we are not talking about the Council of Terra. We are talking abut the Primarchs and Imperial military. So still a bad example.

 

Especially since I was pointing out that Horus could still be a figurehead for the Heresy without being Warmaster.

 

Again, the Council of Terra and their relationship with the Warmaster is quite different than the Warmaster and his explicitly inferiors in the chain of command.

 

Again we just don't know. It's not how GW wrote it and speculating can only go so far. Manus was supposed to be the most cool-headed of the Primarchs. But he died in a fit of rage.

 

I was under the impression the Lion or Guilliman were meant to be the most cool-headed of Primarchs.

[JD (Wulfrik)]

Maybe he can be the one who can kill the Emperor because in his story he his the most powerful of the lost primarch of the Emperor

[Captain Idaho]

Rather than picking each other's posts apart bit by bit, it would be more constructive to make a statement of what you believe or have interpreted and discussing the points made. When you completely take apart an entire post and comment on every line it isn't constructive to the discussion, dirties the water of the discussion (i.e. makes it hard to follow and get your own position) and really doesn't win an argument since the point of the discussion gets lost in needless information.

 

As an example, this:

 

(Kol_Saresk @ Apr 27 2012, 02:26 PM)

 

The Queen of Britain is not an elected official either.

 

 

She is not a badass military warlord commanding an entire legion of superhuman killers either. No offense, but her actual responsiblites are quite limited. The Warmaster heads a galactic Crusade. Horus repeatedly complains about the responsiblity of being Warmaster and all the work he has to do.

 

...adds NOTHING to the discussion really. It's just points scoring and already covered. (both of you)

[Arkangilos]

Well, wasn't Russ given the order to bring in Magnus, and instead Horus convinced Russ to fight Magnus through some trick?

 

I don't think that would have really happened if RG was the one who went there himself.

 

 

Also, I thought Sanguinius was one of the most cool-headed as well, at least until he is in the middle of combat with daemons.

[Legatus]

Well, wasn't Russ given the order to bring in Magnus, and instead Horus convinced Russ to fight Magnus through some trick?

 

I don't think that would have really happened if RG was the one who went there himself.

Well, Guilliman would not have incited Russ to eradicate the Thousand Sons, but Horus, as the accomplished and beloved brother, could perhaps still gotten to Russ.

 

 

Secondly, if Gulliman found out that Magnus had broken with the Council of Nikea, it would have probably been worse. He probably would have set several Legions on Prospero to ensure the eradication of the "lawless Astartes". Assuming how his manner in aiding in the punishment of Lorgar is anything to go by. In a way, Gulliman would have made some things worse and somethings better.

Guilliman's actions on Monarchia are not anything to go by. The Ultramarines were known to take worlds with as few collateral damage and civilian casualties as possible, so attacking a civilian city to make some point was completely uncharacteristic for them. I thought it was obvious that Guilliman/the Ultramarines were not enjoying what they were doing on that world. That suggests they were acting under explicite instructions.

[karden00]

Well, since were in the world of theoreticals...

 

If Roby G were Warmaster...Who knows?

From the years and years of reading (and usually loving) the fluff, I always had the impression that Horus' treachery was a result of character (Not the position) of Horus. So sure, Roby G is Warmaster, he does a fantastic job of creating and directing the erection of stable, model imperial worlds, systems, zones and sectors. The Ruinous Powers IMO would probably still have gone for Horus, because it is his character that makes him the most worthy candidate to effect the Imperium-wide civil war. Only difference is, Roby-G is a more formidable opponent than the (mostly) absent Emperor was, and can deal with things on his own, which would have made the Big E's job of (presumably) fending off the daemon thing on Terra much easier and less costly to the Imperium.

Would his selection as Warmaster have brewed resentment? Would it have provided ample cause for a cunning, masterful manipulator like Horus to push for rebellion? Sure, but whichever way you slice it, it would be a very different heresy were looking at.

 

End result, Roby G for the win, Even More Blue Marines than was previously thought.

Up the XIII and the Legio Ultra!!!

[Kol Saresk]

All I know is this, Horus was willing to accept xenos into the Imperium if it meant bringing compliance to more human worlds without bloodshed. At all. That's why he was willing to talk to the Interex. Can we truly say that Gulliman was willing to do the same? After all, he was about to punish a Space Marine for just thinking about the possibility fighting other Space Marines. And we never were told just what was going to happen, just the Gulliman wasn't very happy about it.

 

And wasn't there some fluff saying that when he was first offered to change his Legion to the Sons of Horus, he refused because he didn't want to be put up above his brothers?

[Legatus]

All I know is this, Horus was willing to accept xenos into the Imperium if it meant bringing compliance to more human worlds without bloodshed. At all. That's why he was willing to talk to the Interex. Can we truly say that Gulliman was willing to do the same?

I cannot remember specific accounts about aliens off teh top of my head. But Guilliman's first military campaign back on Macragge was to defeat the mountain raiders that had trubled the civilised regions for generations. In the end he defeated the raiders and managed to earn the respect of their chieftain, extending a hand in friendship instead of exterminating the raiders. It seems likely that he would be capable to extend the same courtesy to an alien enemy.

 

 

After all, he was about to punish a Space Marine for just thinking about the possibility fighting other Space Marines.

That was a disciplinary matter, concerning one of his charges. I imagine contemporary officiers in the military who openly contemplated how to fight allies might get a talk from his superiors as well. And there is more supersticion and a stronger "brotehrhood" theme with Space Marines than there is with contemporary militaries.

[Kol Saresk]

But wasn't Imperial law to exterminate Xenos?

[Olis]

But wasn't Imperial law to exterminate Xenos?

 

I think it was hostile xenos - the Jokaero are xenos but are not persecuted like other xenos. I may (or may not) have read somewhere that they are a protecterate species within the Imperium. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Gree]

But wasn't Imperial law to exterminate Xenos?

 

30k Imperium is different from 40k Imperium.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

But wasn't Imperial law to exterminate Xenos?

 

30k Imperium is different from 40k Imperium.

 

 

This. Plus, from the back of Galaxy in Flames there is a timeline of the various "Ages" of mankind. During the Age of Technology:

 

Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are signed with dozens of alien races

 

Some of those, I imagine, could have been left in place because they were beneficial to the Imperium. As previously mentioned, the Jokaero are a good example.

[Atlantic]

I think you guys are missing the point a bit.

 

KNF also has a passage that basically implies Guilliman's responsibilities were already far beyond Warmaster.

 

It was an obsolete, lesser role, he realized he wanted no part of.

 

 

Guilliman was sitting at the big boy table building his own Empire in the biggest sector of the galaxy, while simultaneously continuing to conquer and do the whole primarch thing. Guilliman beats Horus and the other primarchs at everything. Period. There is a section in The First Heretic where they basically say that Guilliman is the most like the Emperor.

 

Horus was still at the kiddy table pushing his little brothers around.

 

 

Now if Guilliman were made warmaster, Angron, Mortarion, Alpharius, and Kurze would have been in serious trouble. Look at the dismantling of Tsagulasa in Void Stalker. Those guys would have been nailed, which is probably why he was not made Warmaster. The Primarchs were an incredible investment and it wouldn't do to put someone in charge who could independently eliminate some of the others.