Wade Garrett Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Was it Rob or Dorn who wound up getting into a fist fight with Kurze? I remember reading about it in "Lord of the Night" but I can't remember which one it was and I can't find my copy right now. I want to say it was Guilliman, though, considering he got along with Lorgar AND Alpharius like a house on fire, i.e. with lots of screaming and people burning to death. If I'm right that's at least three Legions who would have been willing to go to the war with the Ultramarines. AND he almost started a war with Dorn (usually considered to be one of the nicer, if a bit dour Primarchs) post Horus. It may have been because of the after effects of one of Chao's many Magic Nail Babies To Your Head Swords, but it still doesn't say a lot for his diplomatic skills. While it's true Rob wasn't Miles Glorious wanna be he's depicted as over on TG, the man had his faults as well. In my view, Rob is like an Omar Bradley in World War 2....great soldier, but there's a reason Eisenhower was made Allied Supreme Commander and Brad wasn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It was Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Dorn got into it with Kurze, not Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Was it Rob or Dorn who wound up getting into a fist fight with Kurze? I remember reading about it in "Lord of the Night" but I can't remember which one it was and I can't find my copy right now. I want to say it was Guilliman, though, considering he got along with Lorgar AND Alpharius like a house on fire, i.e. with lots of screaming and people burning to death. If I'm right that's at least three Legions who would have been willing to go to the war with the Ultramarines. AND he almost started a war with Dorn (usually considered to be one of the nicer, if a bit dour Primarchs) post Horus. It may have been because of the after effects of one of Chao's many Magic Nail Babies To Your Head Swords, but it still doesn't say a lot for his diplomatic skills. While it's true Rob wasn't Miles Glorious wanna be he's depicted as over on TG, the man had his faults as well. In my view, Rob is like an Omar Bradley in World War 2....great soldier, but there's a reason Eisenhower was made Allied Supreme Commander and Brad wasn't. I'm sure there wasn't any love lost between Kurze and Guilliman, but it was with Dorn that the two actually came to blows. And, to be fair, it wasn't really Guilliman inciting a war with Dorn, nor was it the other way around. The Imperium was changing drastically, and the Astartes were split between those who were flowing with it and those who were opposed to it. Guilliman and Dorn were the biggest players on the two sides. Neither wanted to war with the other, but both knew that it would happen unless one backed down. If Guilliman had backed down instead of Dorn, we'd probably see a 40k universe where all Legions are branded Traitor. Either that, or the Primarchs would have taken over in a complete dictatorship to avoid that other outcome. Dorn backing down is what allowed the Imperium to go through this tumultuous time without having to brand anymore Legions as Traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Dorn backing down is also why the Space Marines have virtually no military power when compared to their Legion days. And why Huron building up his military strength to reinforce the Maelstrom Wardens was a big no-no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Guilliman and Dorn both had their issues with some of the future traitor Primarchs. Guilliman himself had criticized Horus, Alpharius, Angron and Mortarion. He is not recorded as having commented on Lorgar, but Lorgar in turn was envious of his favoured status. I like to think that Guilliman probably got on better with Fulgrim (who valued efficient doctrines) and Perturabo. The Index Astartes of the Luna Wolves describes how at some point both the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines had been fighting alongside the Luna Wolves, and both Legions were frequently used to mop up behind the Luna Wolves forces while they proceeded to the next combat zone. The Iron Warriors of course ended up turning sour precisely because of such a mistreatment of their Legion, but Guilliman had confronted Horus about the issue instead. This is the incident where he had criticized him, since the worlds being left by the Luna Wolves were often not very secure. However, Horus did not take it personally, and is said to have pacified Guilliman by conceding that he was much better at such matters. Dorn got into a fight with Curze, and enraged Perturabo unwittingly. The 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines described a strong animosity between the Imperial Fists and the Alpha Legion that had existed even before the Heresy and had led to various clashes between the Legions, but this was dropped for the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, where they were instead given a feud with the Ultramarines. Otherwise Dorn is described as being respected by most Primarchs. As examples it mentions that he was gifted with a stable of horses by Khan, and that he is one of four Primarchs honoured with a statue next to Guilliman's in the Ultramarines' hall of honours. In one of the Horus Heresy novels it is said that Horus had valued both Dorn's and Guilliman's councel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I think it was in Horus Rising where that last bit was said alongside Horus saying that if he ever attacked a fortress made by Dorn, no one would win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3052674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 true, Horus said something along the lines of "the best offensive legion versus the best defensive legion". Edit: actually, he said that a war between the imperial fists and the luna wolves/sons of Horus would last forever. boy, i wouldn't like to be around Perturabo ifhe heard that, considering he saw Horus as his closest brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 true, Horus said something along the lines of "the best offensive legion versus the best defensive legion". Edit: actually, he said that a war between the imperial fists and the luna wolves/sons of Horus would last forever. boy, i wouldn't like to be around Perturabo ifhe heard that, considering he saw Horus as his closest brother. 10,000 years later, he's not wrong yet! Rikk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Think of it this way, if Horus hadn't been warmaster, then how much of the heresy would he of been able to pull off without that status? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Don't know. But think of it this way, if Horus wasn't Warmaster, would he still have been the Chosen of Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Don't know. But think of it this way, if Horus wasn't Warmaster, would he still have been the Chosen of Chaos. Likely, yes. As someone already pointed out earlier, Chaos tested each and every one of the Primarchs. Therefore, Guilliman was tested by Chaos to their fullest extent and remained true. It's very likely that the would have continued to use Horus as their Chosen, because he would still be the better choice of all those Primarchs Chaos got a hold of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Don't know. But think of it this way, if Horus wasn't Warmaster, would he still have been the Chosen of Chaos. Likely, yes. As someone already pointed out earlier, Chaos tested each and every one of the Primarchs. Therefore, Guilliman was tested by Chaos to their fullest extent and remained true. It's very likely that the would have continued to use Horus as their Chosen, because he would still be the better choice of all those Primarchs Chaos got a hold of. I highly doubt Horus would've fallen if he wasn't Warmaster. The initial reason for Horus falling was honour, not greediness. He truly beloved the Emperor had forsaken the Imperium in order to become a god, and Horus intended to save it. His duties as Warmaster caused him a great deal of stress, making him question why his beloved father left him with this huge responsibility. If Horus wasn't Warmaster, he wouldn't be as stressed, he would honour his fathers decision and try to help Guilliman as much as possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Don't know. But think of it this way, if Horus wasn't Warmaster, would he still have been the Chosen of Chaos. Likely, yes. As someone already pointed out earlier, Chaos tested each and every one of the Primarchs. Therefore, Guilliman was tested by Chaos to their fullest extent and remained true. It's very likely that the would have continued to use Horus as their Chosen, because he would still be the better choice of all those Primarchs Chaos got a hold of. I highly doubt Horus would've fallen if he wasn't Warmaster. The initial reason for Horus falling was honour, not greediness. He truly beloved the Emperor had forsaken the Imperium in order to become a god, and Horus intended to save it. His duties as Warmaster caused him a great deal of stress, making him question why his beloved father left him with this huge responsibility. If Horus wasn't Warmaster, he wouldn't be as stressed, he would honour his fathers decision and try to help Guilliman as much as possible. Possibly Horus may not have fallen if not Warmaster but then this could be another avenue for Chaos to exploit i.e. "It should have been you...you were with him first..."etc. If anything, any scenario whereby Horus felt abandoned by the Emperor would lead to rebellion and those who also held grudges, would follow Horus as they did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I just spent 16 hours at the movies watching an Avengers movies marathon so my brain is kinda fried. and I'm skipping over reading most of the thread. If I'm restating information, sorry. Guilliman was said to be incorruptible. [A captured Fallen Angel, one that is convinced that he had been in the right and that Jonson had been the traitor, explaining his view of how the Primarchs had been shaped by their upbringing.]'Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch? It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor. He turned against his master, as did those who also had such flaws, and eventually Horus was killed and the others driven into the Eye of Terror where they stay to this day, nursing their flaws, reinforcing their prejudices.’ Guilliman was said to be the Primarch who was said to be The Emperor's true echo. [Kor Phaeron describing to Lorgar which facets of the Emperor the different Primarchs represent.]'And Guilliman?' Lorgar let his hands rest on his knees again. A smile inched across his features. 'Guilliman.' Kor Phaeron's narrow lips moulded into a grimace, opposing his primarch's smirk. 'Guilliman is your father's echo, heart and soul. If all else went wrong, he would be heir to the empire. Horus is the brightest star and you carry your father's face, but Guilliman's heart and soul are cast in the Emperor's image.' Given those, and that they're backed up pretty massively by Know No Fear, I have to assume that Guilliman would never betray the Imperium, and I'm going to have to echo those who've said that Horus would probably still end up being manipulated into being the traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Given those, and that they're backed up pretty massively by Know No Fear, I have to assume that Guilliman would never betray the Imperium Of course he wouldn't. But I would see the omniscient narration passages from the Chaos Codices, explaining that all Primarchs had been sorely tested by the powers of Chaos and that half of them failed those tests, as far more conclusive than those subjective opinions made by in-universe characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Agreed. I just think it's particularly remarkable that a Fallen Angel would remark on how Guilliman in particular had learned incorruptibility, as if all the Primarchs had been tested, but somehow Guilliman came through it remarkably unphased. As if there was maybe a questionable moment for each of the other loyalists and then they shook it off, but Guilliman was tempted and never even blinked. And that he'd be singled out as the true echo of The Emperor's heart and soul kinda indicates to me that Guilliman's own motivations and methods are basically the same as The Emperor's, so being "against" The Emperor would just be counter to his own goals anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Given those, and that they're backed up pretty massively by Know No Fear, I have to assume that Guilliman would never betray the Imperium, and I'm going to have to echo those who've said that Horus would probably still end up being manipulated into being the traitor. How exactly? I wouldn't call a Chaos Sorcerer sticking a ritual knife to your throat a good temptation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Well, the Chaos Sorcerer seemed convinced it would work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Guliman has always been a fine commander, but in my eyes hes always been more of a Noble Senator. Horus to my understanding would make the best choice in terms of controlling military actions and leading his brothers as he was very charismatic, Learnt from the Emperor himself and held just the right level of agression to ensure his actions were not excessive to enable a chance of stability and trust to be rebuilt. (Characteristics characters like Angron, Curze and even Fulgrim lack) If anything There should of been roles granted to all the Primarchs, to place one brother in control of the others (even if he is more sorted than all the others) will always encourage to other primarchs to harbour feelings of jealousy towards him. The Emperor should of decreed that the Ultramarines act as Galalactic governors towards all other legions. Lending their Manpower to ensure the peaceful re contruction of worlds. Where Horus should of been appointed sole commander of military affairs, Rob Should of been the one to have final say on all democratic decisions, and give voice to Horus's actions (A sort of Nay sayer as it were) In saying that though i have not read KNF and would not be able to gauge the depths of Robs personality. But from what fluff and lore states Guliman althought a Spartan like warrior would be better suited to the Senate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Well, the Chaos Sorcerer seemed convinced it would work. Based on Erebus' feat of converting Horus. It was quite stupid of him to assume he can do the same with just a knife on a throat considering what it took to convert Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 In saying that though i have not read KNF and would not be able to gauge the depths of Robs personality. But from what fluff and lore states Guliman althought a Spartan like warrior would be better suited to the Senate. He could perhaps have done that, though for some reason when I think of a senate, I think of endless debating and making compromises to appease others. ;) I am not sure his talents for actually getting things done would be well employed there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Given those, and that they're backed up pretty massively by Know No Fear, I have to assume that Guilliman would never betray the Imperium, and I'm going to have to echo those who've said that Horus would probably still end up being manipulated into being the traitor. How exactly? I wouldn't call a Chaos Sorcerer sticking a ritual knife to your throat a good temptation. Perhaps they were tempted when they were whisked away by the chaos gods, as they were traveling through the warp to whatever planet they were to land on perhaps the chaos gods probed and poked at their minds and soul to see if they could cause one or more to betray his father and the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 So everyone has made an effort to point out that Gulliman is just like the Emperor. And that he is a kind and loving person when it comes to valuing the lives of civilians, despite his aloof nature with his own Astartes. Excerpt from Legion page 75 Looking back, Grammaticus wondered if he would have been able to influence the Emperor's course if he'd lived. He doubted it. Even then, in that tiny moment of connection, it had been clear that the Emperor was never going to turn away from the road of catastrrophic bloodshed he was set upon. One day, he would unleash upon the galaxy the most dreadful killing machines of all: the Astartes. Another excerpt from Legion, Grammaticus talking to Gahet of the Cabal, page 76 "Have you ever met him?" Grammaticus had asked. "No John I haven't." "Then you have no idea what a bloodthirsty bastard he really is." There's the heart and soul of the Emperor. We also have to remember that the Emperor made the Thunder Warriors. And if we went by how the commander of the Thunder Warriors was in The Outcast Dead and what he said about his own warriors, they made meeting a Night Lord in a back alley look like a picnic. And the Emperor was the one who sanctioned the Thunder Warriors actions during Unification. This is also the same Emperor who was willing to let the Assassinorium kill his son until Dorn threatened to tear the Officio apart because he didn't know the Emperor knew what was going on. Of that is my opinion based on same of the things he said at the end of Nemesis. Here's one other thing we have to remember. Everything we are presenting for evidence, is only viable in the universe where Horus became Warmaster and where Horus became the Chosen of Chaos. If we go back and change it to Gulliman being Warmaster, we change the whole game. Literally. There is no way of telling what is going to happen. Everyone saying Gulliman would still be the pinnacle of perfection while being an avatar of the Emperor's heart and soul(the same heart and soul that led gene-enhanced warriors that he killed himself in the slaughter of millions), it might be different. We just don't know. The circumstances will change. Even if all that changed was Gulliman getting the title of Warmaster, it would still change it because Horus wouldn't have used his nonexistent title to try to broker peace with the Interex which would mean that Erebus may not have been able to steal the anathame. Right there, that would lead to changing at least three of the Primarchs' fates. Horus would never be wounded by it. Fulgrim would never recieve it as a gift. Fulgrim would never use it to mortally wound Gulliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 And that he'd be singled out as the true echo of The Emperor's heart and soul kinda indicates to me that Guilliman's own motivations and methods are basically the same as The Emperor's, so being "against" The Emperor would just be counter to his own goals anyways. I've always liked that piece, because I think it shows how manipulative Kor Phaeron is, he compares Lorgars hated brother to the person Kor Phaeron himself wants him to betray. Thus sowing more resentment in Lorgar. I didn't however take it to be true, even Ultramarines themselves didn't understand Guilliman, and neither did Kor, as demonstrated in KNF. Kor thought he could be easily corrupted (something which the Emperor clearly couldn't be, as he would've been tempted by Chaos previously). I'd take it as seriously as the throwaway comment that the Ultramarines absorbed the missing legions, tbf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251392-what-if-guilliman-became-warmaster/page/5/#findComment-3053886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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