What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Captain Idaho]

Well, the Chaos Sorcerer seemed convinced it would work.

 

We don't know it didn't. Even if he was tempted and resisted them means it is possible to corrupt him; if it was impossible it wouldn't have tempted him would it! ;)

[Wade Garrett]

A thought:

 

We know Rob made some questionable decisions later on in his career, that seem to go completely against the way's he has been portrayed in Know No Fear and elsewhere.

 

We know many of these decisions were made AFTER his big showdown with Alpharius, where he killed his little brother.

 

We know that the Alpha Legion has the medical and espionage know how to have their Marines imitate Marines from other chapters, so well that even a Primarch is fooled. (Deliverance Lost)

 

We know that every Primarch stands head and shoulders above his "sons" in their legion's areas of expertise (Magnus is a more powerful psyker than any Thousand Son, Kurze ruled a whole world by fear single handedly, Russ had manlier facial hair than any Fenryka Volk...)

 

A Primarch of the Ultramarines and a Primarch of the Alpha Legion duelled on that planet. One stood, one fell. But if you think about it...hmmm.

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I say.

[Coryphaus 101]

A thought:

 

We know Rob made some questionable decisions later on in his career, that seem to go completely against the way's he has been portrayed in Know No Fear and elsewhere.

 

We know many of these decisions were made AFTER his big showdown with Alpharius, where he killed his little brother.

 

We know that the Alpha Legion has the medical and espionage know how to have their Marines imitate Marines from other chapters, so well that even a Primarch is fooled. (Deliverance Lost)

 

We know that every Primarch stands head and shoulders above his "sons" in their legion's areas of expertise (Magnus is a more powerful psyker than any Thousand Son, Kurze ruled a whole world by fear single handedly, Russ had manlier facial hair than any Fenryka Volk...)

 

A Primarch of the Ultramarines and a Primarch of the Alpha Legion duelled on that planet. One stood, one fell. But if you think about it...hmmm.

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I say.

I sincerely hope you're joking.

[Kol Saresk]

I can't even think of something remotely good to say to that since it is completely off topic and so out of the box I can't even read it more than once.

[Bearingtheword]

I personally think that that would be one hell of an interesting twist.....It would definitely piss off all of the UM "boys" if it were to happen, and the Word Bearer side of me is screaming "Ohhh the delicious dripping irony....". But wow talk about a thought that's way out outside the box....wow.

 

I still don't know why, if Kor Phaeron did indeed view RG as the echo of the Emperor's soul, he would have even tried to corrupt RG. Perhaps it was his arrogance, and of course his jealousy of Erebus that drove him to defy his Primarch and even attempt it. Having not read Aurelian yet, I don't know if its a possibility that was even glimpsed by Lorgar during his myriad visions that he saw there in the warp or not.

 

As far as corruption in the heresy goes, I still think that if RG had been made Warmaster, that Horus still would have been the one corrupted and to lead the other primarchs who would rebel due to their varied disagreements, jealousies, chaos warped perceptions or whatever other means that the denizens of the warp would have gathered them all together could have or would have been. They still had a vendetta against the Emp to prosecute and would still have used every means possible to make it happen...

 

 

I still am of the mind, that no surviving primarch came away from the heresy untouched or uninfluenced by the Chaos powers in some way or another....

 

~BtW

[Kol Saresk]

Well look at what we know of the Emperor. He made a pact with Chaos in order to create the Primarchs in the first place. Why else would he have them strapped to a Geller field with prayers written across their pods? He is also of a singular mind when it comes to bloodshed. Look at his Thunder Warriors. Unparalleled rage and bloodthirst controlled by a singular focus. The World Eaters would be jealous of them. Then he took it to the next level. He took the blunt hammer of the Thunder Warriors and turned it into a fine scalpel called the Astartes who were led by twenty Titans: the Primarchs. Two of those Primarchs were not only executed, but purged from history. Only the higher levels of government seem to even know that they ever existed. This same "man" also led a Crusade from Terra that gave only two choices to any human world they came across: join us willingly or after everyone has died. Obviously not everyone was killed but I'm pretty sure the death tolls amongst the indeginous population was insanely high. And there probably were more than a few worlds that were ptied of life before being recolonized. And any xenos race they came across was basically wiped out. Except for a few who are "protected"(read as exploited) by the Imperium.

 

This same man also received a vision that he must die when his son fights him as Terra so he can kill him and the han race survive. Ironically, this is playing right into the hand of Chaos as this is the vision the Cabal wants to preventas it would ultimately mean victory for Chaos.

 

So if Gulliman is truly like the Emperor, and the Emperor can be tricked into doing the work of Chaos, why can't RG ever be corrupted?

 

On a side note, this made me realize thatCurze and the Emperor had quite a bit in common.

[greatcrusade08]

So if Gulliman is truly like the Emperor, and the Emperor can be tricked into doing the work of Chaos, why can't RG ever be corrupted?

 

tbh the logic is flawed, the emperor is pure, he cannot be corrupted by chaos, if RG is said to be like the emperor then it suggest to me, logically speaking that he too is immune to corruption.

also the whole "the emperor was tricked into doing the work of chaos" is one interpretation, i dont see the situation that way, he double crossed the chaos gods and they 'stole' the pods.. it was always his work, not the chaos gods'

[Legatus]

We know Rob made some questionable decisions later on in his career

I must have missed that bit.

[Marshal Rohr]

The part where he began skinning the bodies of the other Primarchs and dancing to 'Goodbye Horses'.

 

 

It is clearly detailed in A D-B's newest novel I'm trying to write a story you guys will like: but all you ever do is argue about stuff I've never written. It's due out sometime this summer.

[Coryphaus 101]

Oops, accidently posted instead of copying and sigging...

 

I better add something then. I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't make any questionable or wacky decisions before he was placed in stasis. If that was the case the, unlike Bearingtheword, the Word Bearer in me would be screaming "all this for nothing! Kill the Primarch (as in Alpharius) and his twin!" However, this is completely off topic so I'm going to stop talking.

[Captain Idaho]

Well look at what we know of the Emperor. He made a pact with Chaos in order to create the Primarchs in the first place. Why else would he have them strapped to a Geller field with prayers written across their pods?

 

Assumption?

 

You see, you are reading and taking literally the word of a falsehood (i.e. Daemon) trying to convince others of it's cause (or anti-cause depending on your view).

 

Read inbetween the lines and what was said was the Emperor took the knowledge from Chaos and they regarded it as what was owed. Well guess what, the Chaos Gods are pompus, arrogant monstrocities only caring for their own power. Do you not think they would regard things that don't belong to them as "theirs" and "owed" because of their nature?

 

We know Rob made some questionable decisions later on in his career

 

Possible that they weren't his decisions you know. I reckon BL will show how the Imperium is full of factions and we will see that Guilliman and the other Primarchs were forced to take some decisions (after all they can't operate without Navigators or the Astropathic choir).

 

Besides, it's always amusing how people say his decisions were questionable later on with regards to the breaking down with the Legions. So Corax, Khan and later Dorn were all cowards or fools then? No, it's because the decisions made were the best decisions to be made at the time, be it because of outside Imperial interference or not.

 

And for the record, "Alpharius did it" is an aweful plot device and I hope we see it less often. He's not omnipotent.

[Kol Saresk]

The same arrogance could be applied to the Emperor. He considers himself and omnipotent and all-knowing. True, he says he can't be both at the same time. But he does lay claim to those attributes.

[Captain Idaho]

The same arrogance could be applied to the Emperor. He considers himself and omnipotent and all-knowing. True, he says he can't be both at the same time. But he does lay claim to those attributes.

 

Source for his arrogance please? Because reading all sources of any interaction he has with others shows him to be quite likable and practical.

[Kol Saresk]

The Outcast Dead in conversation with the Astropath Kai Zulane on page 447.

 

"-there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing."

"Which is?"

"You can't be both at the same time."

 

And I always thought that the Emperor was a nice guy. But reading the Horus Heresy has shown me something. A lot of his actions gives lies to his claims. Let's look at the Night Lords. Even in the original fluff, it wasn't until towards the end of Crusade that the Emperor decided he could no longer turn a blind eye to their actions. Why was the blind eye there in the first place? He moved to punish Lorgar when Lorgar wasn't doing something right. But both were committing crimes against Imperial Law? Weren't they? The difference was that Curze was conquering worlds at a much faster pace. Couple of assassinations here, a destroyed hive there, maybe one or two nuked continents, and a planet was in submission with a full, intact infrastructure ripe for Imperial harvesting except in the worse battlegrounds. Those would require full-scale rebuilds. Nothing the Imperium was against. But no, what crime was he originally held for? Assaulting Rogal Dorn.

 

Lorgar was punished not because he was building stable, loyal worlds that would never turn from the Imperium, but because he was doing it too slow. Curze on the other hand, gained such a reputation that foreign cultures knew of the Night Lords and would surrender as they came in system. In a way, he was the most successful. He had the luxury of just showing up and people joining the Imperium. He only had to fight those worlds that wouldn't give up religion, those who refused to join the Imperium and those were allied with xenos. Of course, given their reputation, and the fact it existed, suggested that some worlds were in communication with each other and that many of these things were given up. But did the Emperor care? After all, Rogal Dorn was the one who charged him with these crimes, after he was assaulted.

 

Seriously, would he care? He led the Thunder Warriors in the slaughter of men, women and children(also from The Outcast Dead) in a campaign to "unite Terra". And then when he was done with that,he created the Astartes. Who were much more refined than the Thunder Warriors only in the genetic processes that created them. Because obviously there were Space Marine Legions who inherited their brutality. And wasn't a Space Marine Chapter Excommunicated because it seeked to tear power from the warp without actually worshiping the Chaos Gods? So if the Primarchs are humanity magnified and they could be corrupted, and they are descended from the Emperor, who was made by mankind, why couldn't the Emperor be corrupted? After all, he is going to kill himself based on a vision from the warp that correlates with the vision that allows Chaos to ultimately win. So if he can be fooled, he can be corrupted. To say otherwise does speak of arrogance. He sought to use the warp as a tool and to unite Humanity under one banner through any means necessary. No different from the Traitor Primarchs, specifically Curze as the Night Lords only use the warp as a tool and uniting humanity through was and still is(in a perverted kind of way) their goal.

 

And Roboute Gulliman is supposed to be exactly like this individual, in heart and soul.

[Captain Idaho]

The Emperor was a pragmatist, simply.

[Legatus]

Curze on the other hand, gained such a reputation that foreign cultures knew of the Night Lords and would surrender as they came in system. In a way, he was the most successful. He had the luxury of just showing up and people joining the Imperium.

That were the World Eaters.

Night Lords

"The tactic proved incredibly effective. Soon the extreme measures of the Night Lords became infamous, the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge fro the Night Lords."

(Index Astartes Night Lords)

World Eaters

"No mercy was offered by the World Eaters, only bloody death at the end of a chain-axe. The Liber Malum speaks of whole systems surrendering wholesale rather than face the wrath of the World Eaters."

(Index Astartes World Eaters)

The presence of the Night Lords made worlds that already belonged to the Imperium more compliant. The threat of a World Eaters attack made foreign systems surrender to the Imperium.

 

The World Eaters were censured by the Emperor for their practices, specifically after they had slaughtered the entire population of one world. The Night Lords, at least initially, were only persecuting non-compliance, albeit in a harsh manner. After Curze's struggle with Dorn, he went to destroy his own homeworld and then started a violent rampage through Imperial space, using even the slightest excuse to unleash his Legion on compliant worlds. That is when the Emperor reacted and summoned Curze back to Terra.

"In the wake of this terrible act [destroying Nostramo, after the incident with Dorn], Night Haunter became susceptible to the whispered temptations of Chaos. By this time, he was dangerously unhinged, leaving atrail of devastated worlds across the galaxy. Few civilised worlds were totally without blemish, and the pretexts on which Night Haunter launched full-scale invasions became less and less credible. Imperial reconnaissance craft followed in the wake of the Night Lords' fleet, reporting back to the Emperor's throne room across unimaginable stretches of time and space.

The atrocities the Night Lords were wreaking in the Emperor's name were abhorrent. Blasphemous acts and horrendous violence were the signature of the Night Lords' visitations, the fleet pressing ever onwards so as to avoid retribution. (...)

No longer did Night Haunter crusade in the name of the Emperor, who he now denounced as a weak hypocrite without the courage to admit that his own doctrines were just as extreme. Now he fought in the name of death and fear, knowing full well how the horrific arsenal at his disposal could aid him in his malign work. (...)

Appalled by his son's grotesque acts, the Emperor was forced by repeated protests to call Night Haunter to account, demanding his roesence for a full inquiry into his Legions' methods."

(Index Astartes Night Lords)

 

 

Seriously, would he care? He led the Thunder Warriors in the slaughter of men, women and children(also from The Outcast Dead) in a campaign to "unite Terra".

On that subject, I recommend "Hero" with Jet Li. ;)

 

 

So if he can be fooled, he can be corrupted.

I think it is understood that the Chaod Gods went for Horus because they couldn't get the Emperor. Ancient 40K sources explained how the Emperor was to be the Chaos Gods' greatest enemy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Seriously, would he care? He led the Thunder Warriors in the slaughter of men, women and children(also from The Outcast Dead) in a campaign to "unite Terra". And then when he was done with that,he created the Astartes. Who were much more refined than the Thunder Warriors only in the genetic processes that created them. Because obviously there were Space Marine Legions who inherited their brutality. And wasn't a Space Marine Chapter Excommunicated because it seeked to tear power from the warp without actually worshiping the Chaos Gods? So if the Primarchs are humanity magnified and they could be corrupted, and they are descended from the Emperor, who was made by mankind, why couldn't the Emperor be corrupted? After all, he is going to kill himself based on a vision from the warp that correlates with the vision that allows Chaos to ultimately win. So if he can be fooled, he can be corrupted. To say otherwise does speak of arrogance. He sought to use the warp as a tool and to unite Humanity under one banner through any means necessary. No different from the Traitor Primarchs, specifically Curze as the Night Lords only use the warp as a tool and uniting humanity through was and still is(in a perverted kind of way) their goal.

 

And Roboute Gulliman is supposed to be exactly like this individual, in heart and soul.

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any

other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst.

Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it

with their lives and freedoms."

 

When attempting to unify the most disparate, un-unified, contentious species to dominate this planet, its alot easier to kill the ones who disagree to make room for the ones that do than it is to waste time converting people to your ideals. Guilliman would know this too. Everyone knows it. Its a law of nature.

 

We disagree, I kill you, now I am right. That kind of logic is appalling to most people, but its the only way you could ever unite everyone on Earth. Thats why at the end of the GC the Emperor ordered the axe on everyone who was still 'resisting', the time had come to join up or be put down.

[Captain Idaho]

Well said. I firmly believe human nature only understand might, as whenever any society has given a inch people take yards or more.

[Wade Garrett]

I must disagree. Claiming victory by the slaughter of all who oppose you is...short sighted. What have you gained in the end? A mountain of corpses to stand upon as you proclaim your own greatness? Feh.

 

To make an enemy into an ally, turning whatever strengths and resources he or she may have to serve your cause, THAT is victory, and more efficient than mere extermination. I can prove it mathematically.

 

Word Bearer kill Ultramarine. (-1 Imperium, +0 Chaos) Net gain of 1 for Chaos

Word Bearer turns Ultramarine to worship of the True Pantheon. (-1 Imperium, + 1 Chaos) Net gain of 2 for Chaos. Can't argue with math.

 

To continue on the subject of "Could Rob be turned to Chaos", I think a lot of people ignore the influence of Konor Guilliman on the young Primarch. If there's one thing Rob's actions on Ultramar and later showed, it is that he wants to make his father-figure proud. Now, Konor was an honorable man who cared for his people and worked to make their lives better, and Rob made those goals his own. But what if Guilliman had been brought up by the Necromancer-Tyrant who raised Moratorian? Would he have rebelled against his foster dad like the Lord of the Death Guard did, or would he have brought all the talents that went into making Ultramar, Calth, etc. into great places to live to bear on being more efficent at oppressing the people of Barbus, all the better to make his step dad proud?

 

And if Kor Phereon had been the one to shape him.....Ultramarines, hell. Black Templars as a 1st Founding is more like it. Easily swayed to Chaos Black Templars at that. Hoo boy.

 

PS:

Speculation on Alpharius, Guilliman, and Eskrador is now its own thread. Anyone wishing to join the betting pool on how long said thread takes to be Exterminatused by the moderators, PM me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, the math is right. But consider the effort required to commit to either end. Word Bearer killing Ultramarine could be as simple as one bolt round to the face. Word Bearer converting Ultramarine? First, subdue Ultramarine without killing him. Then, imprison him. Keep him confined and restrained despite all that his superhuman strength can accomplish. Proselytize for an unknown amount of time until Ultramarine turns.

 

Big difference in time and resources committed.

[Marshal Rohr]

I must disagree. Claiming victory by the slaughter of all who oppose you is...short sighted. What have you gained in the end? A mountain of corpses to stand upon as you proclaim your own greatness? Feh.

 

To make an enemy into an ally, turning whatever strengths and resources he or she may have to serve your cause, THAT is victory, and more efficient than mere extermination. I can prove it mathematically.

 

Ok, Bastila. But yeah, you are inherently safer with all your enemies dead. Don't even try to argue it.

[Wade Garrett]

Yeah, the math is right. But consider the effort required to commit to either end. Word Bearer killing Ultramarine could be as simple as one bolt round to the face. Word Bearer converting Ultramarine? First, subdue Ultramarine without killing him. Then, imprison him. Keep him confined and restrained despite all that his superhuman strength can accomplish. Proselytize for an unknown amount of time until Ultramarine turns.

 

Big difference in time and resources committed.

 

There's a short story in the Let The Galaxy Burn Anthology where a Greater Daemon of Nurgle turns an Ultramarine in what can't be less than 5-10 minutes, I want to say the title is "Daemonblood"? Now, granted the corrupting skills of a Greater Daemon are probably greater than random Word Bearer #56, but it's certainly a viable option for Chaos. We're talking about a power than can turn you to its side if you use the wrong hunk of rock for a paper weight, "Easy Evangelism" doesn't even begin to describe it. Especially if all the Word Bearers want is a warm body to run at the enemy lines and rip some stuff apart with it's bare hands, then you just do a bit of chanting, shove a Khornate daemon down the Ultras throat, and call it a day. From fanatical enemy to willing meat shield in thirty minutes, yay Team Chaos!

[Billuriye]

Word Bearer kill Ultramarine. (-1 Imperium, +0 Chaos) Net gain of 1 for Chaos

Word Bearer turns Ultramarine to worship of the True Pantheon. (-1 Imperium, + 1 Chaos) Net gain of 2 for Chaos. Can't argue with math.

 

There is something called cost efficiency ratio. Just because the method gets better results does not mean it is optimal. Time and resources are to be considered.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Seriously, would he care? He led the Thunder Warriors in the slaughter of men, women and children(also from The Outcast Dead) in a campaign to "unite Terra". And then when he was done with that,he created the Astartes. Who were much more refined than the Thunder Warriors only in the genetic processes that created them. Because obviously there were Space Marine Legions who inherited their brutality. And wasn't a Space Marine Chapter Excommunicated because it seeked to tear power from the warp without actually worshiping the Chaos Gods? So if the Primarchs are humanity magnified and they could be corrupted, and they are descended from the Emperor, who was made by mankind, why couldn't the Emperor be corrupted? After all, he is going to kill himself based on a vision from the warp that correlates with the vision that allows Chaos to ultimately win. So if he can be fooled, he can be corrupted. To say otherwise does speak of arrogance. He sought to use the warp as a tool and to unite Humanity under one banner through any means necessary. No different from the Traitor Primarchs, specifically Curze as the Night Lords only use the warp as a tool and uniting humanity through was and still is(in a perverted kind of way) their goal.

 

And Roboute Gulliman is supposed to be exactly like this individual, in heart and soul.

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any

other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst.

Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it

with their lives and freedoms."

 

When attempting to unify the most disparate, un-unified, contentious species to dominate this planet, its alot easier to kill the ones who disagree to make room for the ones that do than it is to waste time converting people to your ideals. Guilliman would know this too. Everyone knows it. Its a law of nature.

 

We disagree, I kill you, now I am right. That kind of logic is appalling to most people, but its the only way you could ever unite everyone on Earth. Thats why at the end of the GC the Emperor ordered the axe on everyone who was still 'resisting', the time had come to join up or be put down.

 

how do you produce these awesome posts?

 

WLK

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman is also a diplomat though. He was always referred to as the Primarch that ensured the minimum of collateral damage to humans etc. He wasn't just a blood thirsty extention of the Emperor, in fact it is silly to claim he was. How was Angron, Curze or Russ known for savagery if Guilliman and the Emperor are so blood thirsty?

 

And taking a Perpetual's opinion that the Emperor is blood thirsty is fine, though it is only one source. But if you want to use him as an example to support your opinion, then remember that same character later has a real concern for the Emperor's well being and survival. That's a little bit at odds with the critical opinion of his blood thirsty ways don't you think?