What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Epistolary Exander]

Here's a thought, what if Guilliman became Warmaster after Horus resigned from being Warmaster after the Interex debacle so that he could concentrate on bringing Worlds to compliance with his Luna Wolves? I think it is certainly plausible considering how much pressure he placed on himself with the role as Warmaster with the Interex episode could easily have been the final straw for Horus & he simply leaves it open for Guilliman to become Warmaster by default.

[Marshal Rohr]

Seriously, would he care? He led the Thunder Warriors in the slaughter of men, women and children(also from The Outcast Dead) in a campaign to "unite Terra". And then when he was done with that,he created the Astartes. Who were much more refined than the Thunder Warriors only in the genetic processes that created them. Because obviously there were Space Marine Legions who inherited their brutality. And wasn't a Space Marine Chapter Excommunicated because it seeked to tear power from the warp without actually worshiping the Chaos Gods? So if the Primarchs are humanity magnified and they could be corrupted, and they are descended from the Emperor, who was made by mankind, why couldn't the Emperor be corrupted? After all, he is going to kill himself based on a vision from the warp that correlates with the vision that allows Chaos to ultimately win. So if he can be fooled, he can be corrupted. To say otherwise does speak of arrogance. He sought to use the warp as a tool and to unite Humanity under one banner through any means necessary. No different from the Traitor Primarchs, specifically Curze as the Night Lords only use the warp as a tool and uniting humanity through was and still is(in a perverted kind of way) their goal.

 

And Roboute Gulliman is supposed to be exactly like this individual, in heart and soul.

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any

other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst.

Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it

with their lives and freedoms."

 

When attempting to unify the most disparate, un-unified, contentious species to dominate this planet, its alot easier to kill the ones who disagree to make room for the ones that do than it is to waste time converting people to your ideals. Guilliman would know this too. Everyone knows it. Its a law of nature.

 

We disagree, I kill you, now I am right. That kind of logic is appalling to most people, but its the only way you could ever unite everyone on Earth. Thats why at the end of the GC the Emperor ordered the axe on everyone who was still 'resisting', the time had come to join up or be put down.

 

how do you produce these awesome posts?

 

WLK

 

The awesomeness is Heinlein, but the rest is all me ;)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Here's a thought, what if Guilliman became Warmaster after Horus resigned from being Warmaster after the Interex debacle so that he could concentrate on bringing Worlds to compliance with his Luna Wolves? I think it is certainly plausible considering how much pressure he placed on himself with the role as Warmaster with the Interex episode could easily have been the final straw for Horus & he simply leaves it open for Guilliman to become Warmaster by default.

That is interesting, not sure Horus's pride and ego would allow that to happen, but if it did that would be very interesting.

[eyeslikethunder]

I think RG's pragmantism would be the the entry point for Chaos into his soul.

 

RG shows that he is willing to give up the Emperor and plan for the new imperium while the lion is desperately trying to save get to earth and save the emperor.

 

RG believes that keeping what the emperor has created is more important than the emperor.

 

This is the path horus goes down when Chaos show him a future where the emperor is going to abandon what he has created and set himself up as god.

 

So RG is a pragmatist willing to do what ever is neccessary for mankind

 

So chaos weakens him shows him a future where mankind falls and loses all because of the emperors actions hidden in his Lab / Emperor becoming a god rips a new eye of terror and eats all the human souls.

 

RG knows what he must do he must stop the emperor. There is no pride or ambition but he knows only he has the grand vision, eye for detail, long term planning, experience in empire building for this NEW IMPERIUM

[Captain Idaho]

People get getting it confused; Guilliman wasn't giving up on the Emperor, he was accepting the Emperor couldn't be saved. Massive difference and one people get getting wrong.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I think RG is a tea bag. He has been diluted in water and lets his infulence spread around only to have the milk of triumph wash in with his character and extend his potential. If the Emperor had added sugar to him he would of been consumed by chaos as he would of then been the perfect beverage. Thusly his lack of sugar (charisma) means his greatest strength is percieved as his weakness. by not being 'the leader' he became 'the leader' and thusly the codex for perfect cups of tea was born (chapters).

 

All the Primarch are beverages to some degree, bar Angron who is actually a mix of Relentless, Monster, Red Bull, Petrolium........and old spice.

[eyeslikethunder]

If RG had to choose between humanity and the Emperor. He would choose Humanity. He makes rational logical pragmatic choices. That would be how the Chaos powers would corrupt him.

He can see and accept a future without the Emperor

Where some Primarchs would refuse to accept or choose. They would put loyalty above all else

 

They would continue to fight irrationally in hope of saving everything.

[Epistolary Exander]

People get getting it confused; Guilliman wasn't giving up on the Emperor, he was accepting the Emperor couldn't be saved. Massive difference and one people get getting wrong.

 

What is the difference between the 2? Personally if I accept something massive in my life is going, it means Im writing it off and so giving up on it.

 

I will give Guilliman his due; considering what the Emperor chose to do in The Outcast Dead, Guilliman has made the correct call in line with the Emperor's plans.

[Captain Idaho]

What is the difference between the 2? Personally if I accept something massive in my life is going, it means Im writing it off and so giving up on it.

 

So a solider going to Afghanistan who accepts he might die and plans for his death so his family affairs are taken care of etc is giving up? Or if a loved one has an accident and I'm told they will probably die, accepting that is giving up? You can accept something and still no write something off and give up on it.

 

Guilliman couldn't directly intercede in the Heresy so obviously had to accept the strategic outcome he was certain of in his and other Legions' absence, but that didn't mean he gave up on the Emperor or the Imperium. Hell, because he was certain Horus couldn't be stopped before defeating the Emperor, consolidating the Imperium was the only true option open to him.

 

I will give Guilliman his due; considering what the Emperor chose to do in The Outcast Dead, Guilliman has made the correct call in line with the Emperor's plans.

 

Exactly. He knew what the Emperor would have wanted and was prepared to detach his emotions towards his father and the dream to dedicate himself to what the Emperor wanted.

 

Now, if he deliberately chose to allow the Emperor to be defeated he would have been guilty, but that's not the case. He couldn't do much as far as the story has gone so far.

[Kol Saresk]

According to dictionary.com(which uses Webster's I believe) give up is defined as:

1.) something conceded or relinquished; concession

 

Not necessarily a negative connotation. It would depend on the use of the phrase. Giving up on something inevitable isn't always a bad thing. If Gulliman truly could not do anything to help save the Emperor, it would be okay. However, if he could do something, and then he chose not to do anything, then it would be a bad thing.

[eyeslikethunder]

what would Guillman do if he had found out that the emperor ascension to godhood would damn all humanity?

[eyeslikethunder]

I'll take the lack of reply as confirmation that he would stop the emperor

[Legatus]

what would Guillman do if he had found out that the emperor ascension to godhood would damn all humanity?

He wouldn't, though, since that's not what is happening, right?

 

Perhaps a more useful question would be "what would Guilliman do if someone told him that the emperor becoming a god would damn all humanity?"

 

I.e. would he take the Emperor's word and his own assessment of the Emperor over the word of "that guy"?

[Captain Idaho]

Why would ascension to Godhood damn all mankind? The Emperor being a full god was the final part of his plan I believe, and certainly the best way to defeat the gods who were enemies of mankind and be the salvation of mankind.

 

However, Legatus brings up a valid point, but an easily answered one in my opinion. Guilliman trusts the Emperor and his vision. If that meant ascending to Godhood he would obey. Remembered they shared eachother's vision for humanity.

 

He wouldn't tolerate the destruction or enslavement of humanity since the Emperor would have to lose his mind for that to occur and cease being the Emperor. :D

 

I doubt, without hard evidence he'd believe the Emperor turned against humanity. Daemonic influence could do it though, just like Horus and Fulgrim who were both very loyal. Incidently I believe only a few Primarchs could resist Daemonic influence no matter how powerful. Sanguinius would certainly choose death over anything else.

[chaplain belisarius]

this thread is awesome! im reading know no fear at the moment and im very much liking how guilliman is portrayed in it...

 

Roboute is basically captain america and cyclops from x-men..and that is not a bad thing in my opinion! :lol:

[Legionator]

Guilliman wouldn't fall to Chaos if he had been warmaster. He was too rational and stoic for Chaos. Traitors knew this and they didn't even bother to try to convince him. I think Loyalist primarchs wouldn't fall in any condition since they were all tested in Heresy but stood loyal.

 

Even if heresy had still happened while Guilliman is Warmaster, it would be crushed easily. Because Horus manipulated loyal legions and gained supported in Mars by using the advantages of being warmaster.

[Vesper]

Guilliman wouldn't fall to Chaos if he had been warmaster. He was too rational and stoic for Chaos. Traitors knew this and they didn't even bother to try to convince him. I think Loyalist primarchs wouldn't fall in any condition since they were all tested in Heresy but stood loyal.

 

Even if heresy had still happened while Guilliman is Warmaster, it would be crushed easily. Because Horus manipulated loyal legions and gained supported in Mars by using the advantages of being warmaster.

 

Ye, Horus was such an irrational guy.

Wait...

 

I do think the traitors don't even bothered asking him to join the Heresy because they knew he wanted to be the warmaster. So he would the perfect opportunist to fill Horus' place. Which he did by becoming ze boss after Horus killed the Emperor.

[Kol Saresk]

Just had a thought. The Emperor is supposed to be Humanity magnified. The Primarchs are in turn supposed to be twenty representations of the Emperor.

 

Three of the Chaos Gods are the psychic reflections of Humanity personified and given form in the warp. Their malevolence comes directly from how Humanity views them. They are evil because we believe them to be so. So if the Emperor sought to become the Star Child/God/Adult/Whatever like the old fluff states, can we guarantee that he will not acquire these tributes?

 

Think about it, if he took on being the sole manifestation of Humanity's collective psyche within the warp, he would take on everything, good and bad. And considering the sheer amount of genocide that has been committed by Humanity since time immemorial(not counting the bloodshed that he himself directly caused), how do we know that won't have a greater influence than the collective "goodwill"?

 

Look at Magnus. The most loyal of sons. He was willing to slur his brother's name if it meant saving his father, at the cost of his own life. And this path eventually led to the damnation of his own soul. Can we truly say Gulliman is better than that? The same Primarch who "unwittingly"(after all, he was cut with a tainted athame so decisions are suspect) steered the Imperium towards the stagnate, corrupt, dying state it is in now with its most stalwart defenders, the Astartes, isolated from each other and either dying or defecting in droves day by day.

 

The path to Hell is paved with good intentions. In trying to save Humanity, he instead gift wrapped and handed it over to Chaos, whether or not he knew it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Look at Magnus. The most loyal of sons. He was willing to slur his brother's name if it meant saving his father, at the cost of his own life. And this path eventually led to the damnation of his own soul. Can we truly say Gulliman is better than that? The same Primarch who "unwittingly"(after all, he was cut with a tainted athame so decisions are suspect) steered the Imperium towards the stagnate, corrupt, dying state it is in now with its most stalwart defenders, the Astartes, isolated from each other and either dying or defecting in droves day by day.

 

The path to Hell is paved with good intentions. In trying to save Humanity, he instead gift wrapped and handed it over to Chaos, whether or not he knew it.

 

Well, thats a biased way to look at Magnus. Magnus, who was warned of the dangers of the Warp, of the hidden powers and promises they would make, was warned by the Emperor himself of what they would do. And what does Magnus do? He ignores the warning, the express command of his gene-father and military leader because he "knows better". What a surprise that an arrogant kid who was swinging way above his weight class get used by the Chaos powers.

Loyal to the Emperor? He spit on his oath of loyalty mere moments after he made it. He is the vilest of traitors, because he didnt damn himself out of ignorance. He damned himself willingly for more power.

 

Now Guilliman. He rebuilt a galactic empire out of the ruins of the first Imperium, and has given it the ability to withstand invasion from without and within. His Imperium, as terrible as it is, has kept humanity a dominant force in the galaxy with xeno species that want nothing more to destroy it. It has been bloodied, beaten and it still gives the galaxy the middle finger and will beat down anybody that comes looking for violence, whether it take 1 year or 100 years, the Imperium of Man will fight you to paste. Thats the Imperium made by Guilliman, and while i dont agree with all his decisions, i believe that him at his worst is worth 10 Magnus's at his best.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Ye, Horus was such an irrational guy.

Wait...

He was a very ambitious guy. That's what got him. Every Primarch was sorely tested by the powers of Chaos. Horus did not pass.

 

 

Just had a thought. The Emperor is supposed to be Humanity magnified. The Primarchs are in turn supposed to be twenty representations of the Emperor.

They are not. But it sounds really cool and poetic to make that connection. However, the notion that the Emperor was planning his super demi-god commanders program and though to himself "this one will embody my honesty, that one my passion, and that one mit logical mind" is just silly.

 

 

Look at Magnus. The most loyal of sons.

Who was too curious for his own good. He was in Tzeentchs pocked long before he broke the edicts of Nikaea. As with Horus, every Primarch was sorely tested by the powers of Chaos, and some failed, for one reason or another. Magnus failed, even if it took some more scheming to push him over the edge.

[Marshal Rohr]

I agree with Legatus. I prefer my 40K to be more 'realistic' and less 'fantasy', so the Primarchs being specifically created to reflect some aspect of the Emperor is pure poetry, in reality the Primarchs are all products of their upbringing and influences as children.

[Vesper]

Ye, Horus was such an irrational guy.

Wait...

He was a very ambitious guy. That\'s what got him. Every Primarch was sorely tested by the powers of Chaos. Horus did not pass.

 

 

I do think he passed the test.

To make him fall, it took way more than a test. Where Angron failed that test, Horus had to be wounded with a super-duper sword of death and then was indoctrinated.

 

Look at Magnus. The most loyal of sons.

Who was too curious for his own good. He was in Tzeentchs pocked long before he broke the edicts of Nikaea. As with Horus, every Primarch was sorely tested by the powers of Chaos, and some failed, for one reason or another. Magnus failed, even if it took some more scheming to push him over the edge.

 

Totally agree here. What is awesone with Magnus is that he actually knows better than everyone, including the Emperor. And this is why he falls. He was not arrogant, he was really sincere and wanted to help. The Emperor was the arrogant dick that saw nothing comming and refused to listen to his son, and it took the Emperor to bring Magnus down to Chaos. The fall of Magnus is a brilliant move from Tzeentch and really an awesome part of the lore.

 

EDIT : my quotes were messed up.

[Kol Saresk]

Look at Magnus. The most loyal of sons. He was willing to slur his brother's name if it meant saving his father, at the cost of his own life. And this path eventually led to the damnation of his own soul. Can we truly say Gulliman is better than that? The same Primarch who "unwittingly"(after all, he was cut with a tainted athame so decisions are suspect) steered the Imperium towards the stagnate, corrupt, dying state it is in now with its most stalwart defenders, the Astartes, isolated from each other and either dying or defecting in droves day by day.

 

The path to Hell is paved with good intentions. In trying to save Humanity, he instead gift wrapped and handed it over to Chaos, whether or not he knew it.

 

Well, thats a biased way to look at Magnus. Magnus, who was warned of the dangers of the Warp, of the hidden powers and promises they would make, was warned by the Emperor himself of what they would do. And what does Magnus do? He ignores the warning, the express command of his gene-father and military leader because he "knows better". What a surprise that an arrogant kid who was swinging way above his weight class get used by the Chaos powers.

Loyal to the Emperor? He spit on his oath of loyalty mere moments after he made it. He is the vilest of traitors, because he didnt damn himself out of ignorance. He damned himself willingly for more power.

 

Now Guilliman. He rebuilt a galactic empire out of the ruins of the first Imperium, and has given it the ability to withstand invasion from without and within. His Imperium, as terrible as it is, has kept humanity a dominant force in the galaxy with xeno species that want nothing more to destroy it. It has been bloodied, beaten and it still gives the galaxy the middle finger and will beat down anybody that comes looking for violence, whether it take 1 year or 100 years, the Imperium of Man will fight you to paste. Thats the Imperium made by Guilliman, and while i dont agree with all his decisions, i believe that him at his worst is worth 10 Magnus's at his best.

 

WLK

Actually he never swore to honor the Edict of Nikea. A technicality but a technicality all the same. Also, he sought to protect mankind from the warp, something his Father chose not to do. "Biased" views and all.

 

And the Imperium is not withstanding invasion from within and without. Every day billions are dying in the Imperium. Whole worlds are burning, by Imperial guns with loyal citizens left behind because they just happened to be on the wrong world at the wrong time. The Inquisition has eliminated entire Guard regiments because they were forced to fight a daemonic incursion and the Inquisition decided there was no use for them afterward. The Guard regiments themselves fight each other, sometimes to the death.

 

Space Marines such as the Marines Malevolent do not care about the citizenry and are more than willing to "cull the cattle." Of course there are those who actually care, that is true.

 

And then there is the fact of the Space Marine Chapters themselves. How many of the 1,000 remain loyal? Some cast out by the very Imperium they are sworn to protect.(Sons of Malice, Flame Falcons) How many still exist? Wiped out by xenos, Traitors and the Imperium itself. The Imperium is far from a decent place to live. At any day, your life can end because someone decides your world is "tainted" by a single pleasure cult that has lasted for two thousand years even though it was contained within a single House and never numbered more than forty people at a time. Or you could be used as bait for a Hive fleet. Your Imperial Guard commander can decide to throw away your life just because he can or he didn't like the look of the local women and used their tattoos and local customs as "evidence" of a Chaos cult, or you could die fighting fellow Guardsmen because both commanders wanted to climb the rails of rank.

 

A Space Marine's life lies on an even sharper blade. If a custom is mistaken for its intent, your Chapter could be persecuted over this slight. If you try to fight back, you are automatically Traitors. If you try to build up the Imperium's borders, you're automatically amassing your own power base to start a civil war because some merchants don't like it. Ironically the solution was to go ahead and cause a civil war, slaughter millions upon millions of civilians, cause one Chapter to turn Renegade(although Forgeworld declares it as already being Renegade) and then condemn three Chapters to death in penitent crusades. Although I believe one managed to just barely survive its penitent crusade. But it's okay if you leave civilians out as bait for Orks and then slaughter them all as long as it is in the name of the Imperium and the Orks die.

 

My friend, I'd rather live on a daemonworld where at least my "allies" are honest about trying to kill me.

 

@Legatus: I don't think it was planned so much as it happened. Much in the way children take after their parents. Some will pick up some traits, others will pick up the rest.

 

Ambitious does not necessarily mean irrational. Angron, irrational. Curze, clinically rational. Clinically insane and clinical in his strategies. It isn't until the Heresy that we see him go off the edge. Although it is funny that his last act as a loyal son is to prevent a world from turning Traitor at the price of its citizens. Lorgar, zealous. Read as irrational. Mortarion. Not too sure why he turned Traitor but his strategies would speak of a sound and rational mind. More than a few of the Traitor primarchs were of a rational mind before and during(to an extent) the Heresy.

 

Magnus turned Traitor to protect his sons. If the Space Wolves had not started a war with them, the KSons might be dead, but they wouldn't be Traitor. Although I do since that the connection between the Blood Ravens and the KSons is growing stronger. You can blame it on BL, just remember that they are beholden to certain rules from GW so GW does endorse what they print. To be honest, the only thing I expect from this corner is that they will be like the Grey Knights, just without the magic gene-seed and a thousand years spent in the warp.

 

EDIT:Grammar

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Upon meeting Magnus, the Emperor had cautioned him about the dangers of sorcery and the nature of the warp. The Emperor had realized that Magnus was very powerful. Possibly feeling it was more dangerous for Magnus to remain ignorant of the secrets of the warp than it was to know them, the Emperor showed him the truth.

 

Magnus feigned shock and horror at what the Emperor revealed to him. He immediately agreed to renounce sorcery and re-educate the peoples of Prospero. But Magnus secretly dismissed the Emperor's warnings. He had already peered into the warp with his great one eye and was obsessed with the power and beauty it promised him page 91 of the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.

 

SO Magnus decided to be a traitor from the very beginning, even before meeting his Sons. He was shown the truth of the warp, and he didnt care. He wanted power. He thought he could be its master. He was not only a traitor, but a fool as well.

 

and your basing your opinion on the negative of 40k, which is understandable because that is the most commonly presented background. Whats the point of having genetically enhanced killing machines playing xbox all day? We need to hear the horrors of the galaxy to have any interest in the game.

 

But, while i agree much of the Imperium is terribad, there are areas of relative peace and stability. Much of Ultramar is the ideal future of humanity, planets like Tanith sound amazing to live on (before the "grimmy darkness of grim-dark" kicks down the door) Page 113-114 of the 3rd edition codex actually describe the various types of planets in the Imperium, and i can tell you that i love the idea of a entire world dedicated to growing food. There are good places in 40k, because there HAS to be. if everything was a craptastic ruin then there wouldnt be anything for the Imperium to fight for, no point to go on. And for every gun-happy Commander there are generally good people like Gaunt or the now dead Belladon commander.

 

And even at its worst, if everything in 40k is a joke and humanity is doomed to be swallowed by its foes, then by the Emperor humanity will go down swinging. It will bite, scratch, do whatever it takes to force its foe to choke on it.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I never read the Collected Visions so I do apologize for that. Although the Emperor was the one who created the Geller fields for mankind to travel the warp safely, sanctioned the Navigators so they would have guides and developed the soul binding for astropaths to see into and communicate through the warp so Magnus wasn't the only one who wanted to control the warp. He was just more vocal than his father. To be honest, I am of the opinion that the Emperor and all of his Primarchs are arrogant to some extent or another.

 

Magnus wanted to control the warp and bring mankind to a state of psychic awareness that would rival and surpass the eldar. You are right about that. In a way, the view we have of the Space Wolf Rune Priest in A Thousand Sons saying that the power he draws from the warp is better because it comes from the "Great Storm" and the Rune Priest's continued use of the warp speaks of its own arrogance. Angron wasn't really arrogant the same way as the rest. His arrogance came from him wanting to prove that he was better than the rest of Primarchs. A Napoleon complex so to speak. Mortarion believed that he was stronger than the rest. Perturabo was tired of being left in everyone else's shadows. Especially Dorn's. He never understood that Dorn could build a palace while he could only build fortresses. Leman Russ believed that his loyalty and strongly suggested involvement in the execution of two Legions made him his father's favorite and gave him the right to ignore the Council of Nikea for a different reason as well since we do see continued use of the Rune Priests and their powers. Although it could be strongly argued that one Rune Priest does not include the whole Legion. The Lion believed himself to be a strategic genius who could outplay any of the Primarchs. But yet he gave the most powerful siege weapons ever created to Perturabo. When the Heresy broke out, Dorn believed himself to be the only protector of the Imperium and tried to take everything on his shoulders. Out of them all, he was probably the most innocent. I could go on with the list but eighteen Primarchs is quite a bit.

 

And like I said, there are some in the Imperium who actually care. Granted, I did say it in reference to the Space Marines. They're just too small in number to make a difference when compared to the rest of the Imperium. And if there is one thing we can say about 40k, the good guy doesn't always win. As someone once put it, there is no black and white in 40k, only shades of grey. From the midnight black of dusk to the color of fog rolling in from the coast just before the break of dawn.