What if Guilliman became Warmaster?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, I always see the Emperor's sanctioning of the Nagivators as a forced decision. He knew that the navigators were, at the time, best chance of humanity taking over the stars. Without the Navigators humanity's expansion would be rather limited.

That said, he was working to remove humanity's reliance on the Navigators. His project below the Imperial Palace was an Imperial Webgate. If Magnus hadnt smashed the thing in his ill thought out daemonic shout to Terra over Horus, then the Emperor could have gained access to the Eldar's webgate system. This would have made inter-stellar travel possible without the use of Navigators, and been a huge blow to the Chaos powers.

 

the Wolves view of the warp as shown in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns is incredibly frustrating to me, because they were right (IMO) under older fluff, but now are just as wrong as everybody else. When I first entered the hobby the Nikea Edict was to ban sorcery in the Space Marine Legions, but allowed psykers. What this meant was that there was a clear difference between the two, and in that light the mentality of the Wolves psykers and on of the Thousand Sons makes much mroe sense. The Wolves dip into the powers of the Warp, but in a finely controlled matter (and as such are psykers, using their natural gifts and honing their skills. Like a wizrd in D&D). The T-Sons openly embrace the warp and consort with its inhabitants for knowledge and power (by doing this, they are granted special abilities that arent naturally theirs, like D&D sorcerers.)

 

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

and yea, i love the shades of grey in 40k. its what makes the background so interesting. (and try hunting through Amazon, i found my copy of the Collected Visions there years ago. while some of the fluff is now very wrong, the art is amazing.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

Yeah, this is mostly because of a comment from a Long Fang in Prospero Burns and most of the Space Wolves fans. Not all, just most.

 

Dorn and Sanguinius, okay they wouldn't be necessarily arrogant as we normally define arrogance. Like I said, Dorn felt the weight of the universe on his shoulders when the Heresy broke out. He is portrayed as showing a need to prove that he is the only one who can be depended on. Sort of a hero complex. He got put under severe pressure and to be honest, I give props to him for not breaking, even if he was a fictional character.

 

I think Sanguinius would be filled with some sort of negative emotion that his most trusted of brothers not only turned traitor, but is the one leading the Heresy: Horus himself. I could almost swear that he would be filled with some sort of thirst for revenge. Which would help explain just what the Black Rage is and why it is directed towards Horus. In theory of course. So not necessarily arrogant, but they do have their failings.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, we were discussing arrogance. if we were talking flaws i could have rambled on for days over the flaws of the primarchs!

 

that said, i dont see Dorn suffering from a "hero complex", but you did say "portrayed". One of the things i like most about thise series is what different people take from reading the same novels. Some people view the Emperor as a monster, some see him as humanity's only hope for salvation!

 

WLK

[Legatus]

A Space Marine's life lies on an even sharper blade. If a custom is mistaken for its intent, your Chapter could be persecuted over this slight. If you try to fight back, you are automatically Traitors.

And yet in the "The Astartes and the Inquisition" thread people argue vehemently that a Chapter outright slaughtering Inquisitor Lords and getting into fights with the Grey Knights is not really a big deal... :)

 

 

Ambitious does not necessarily mean irrational. Angron, irrational. Curze, clinically rational. Clinically insane and clinical in his strategies. It isn't until the Heresy that we see him go off the edge. Although it is funny that his last act as a loyal son is to prevent a world from turning Traitor at the price of its citizens. Lorgar, zealous. Read as irrational. Mortarion. Not too sure why he turned Traitor but his strategies would speak of a sound and rational mind. More than a few of the Traitor primarchs were of a rational mind before and during(to an extent) the Heresy.

What Legionator probably meant when he said that Guilliman was "too rational and stoic for Chaos" was that he lacked the emotional weakness that made most of the traitors turn, and not that those Primarchs were unable to think rationally at all. And for those Primarchs where it might even have been a "rational" decision to turn, it was a miscalculated one, not a sound one.

 

 

Magnus turned Traitor to protect his sons. If the Space Wolves had not started a war with them, the KSons might be dead, but they wouldn't be Traitor.

But the entire ordeal was orchestrated, and had been set into motion long before the Heresy. You already have the excerpt from the Collected Visions, so here are some passages from the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article:

"[Landing on Prospero] He could hardly have been more fortunate; a grotesque cyclopean mutant who might have been feared and shunned on any other world came instead upon a hidden planet of kindred spirits. It would not be the last time Magnus's destiny would be so conveniently manipulated. (...)

Then came the day that Magnus opened his cyclopean eye upon the Empyrean, and instead of channeling power from the Warp, Magnus instead saw into it, and life on Prospero was changed forever.

The instant his single enormeous eye saw into that place of power, Magnus the Red went from student to absolute Master.

[After receiving his Legion] There are scholars, especially among Librarians of certain Space Marine Chapters, who suggest it was during this time that another threshold was crossed. They believed that the crisis of controlling an entire Legion's destructive psychic mutancy caused Magnus to seek shortcuts, or explore mor eperilous paths. There are others, including prominent menbers of the Inquisition, who suggest no such 'threshold' ever existed; that the original commune of psychic adepts were already students of darker arts before Magnus came amongst them. (...)

[The Counsil of Nikaea and aftermath] It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. (...)

Suborning brother Primarchs and their Legions to join his own, Horus intended to take the rest of the Imperium, and indeed the Emperor himself, by complete surprise. He was a brilliant strategist; he believed he had manipulated every possible factor to ensure his success. He had miscalculated in only one regard. Despite the decree of his father and despite his swornd promise, Magnus had not turned from the dark arts. (...)

[The Battle for Prospero] In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along.

Everything that mattered to him was burning to the ground, and Magnus turned to what he knew best to save it. Magnus was swept upon the currents of the Warp, and there he found the knowledge he sought. His sorcerers, his beloved Legion, all the precious knowledge they had accumulated within the silver spires of the City of Light could still be saved. He discovered the solution looking back at him, as it had always been there, watching his way, and subtly changing him to its own purpose. He beheld sorcery incarnate, promising knowledge, power and salvation. But this time it was on its own terms. Magnus was no longer the master of the way as he had believed himself, but a servant to it. It is said that even then Magnus hesitated, but as he thought back to his city, his works, his knowledge and his brethren, reduced to fiery ruin at teh command of his own father, he changed his allegiance for all time.

And in that instance, the City of Light, its silver towers and vast libraries and its Legion of Thousand Sons vanished from the face of Prospero, and the Imperium, forever. When Magnus and his Thousand Sons were seen again, it was above Istvaan V, fighting alongside Horus. Magnus had become a Daemon Prince of the Chaos god Tzeentch, Lord of Sorcery, and Changer of the Ways. The battle for their souls and their fate now so complete, it leaves one wondering whether it was ever truly in doubt."

 

The description in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos (p. 17) is much shorter:

"The truth was that his soul had already been touched by Chaos, and Tzeentch insinuated in him a fascination with the occult forces of the wap and the secrets that lay within its fabric. (...)

The path of damnation for the Thousand Sons Legion of Space Marines was longer than most. Even before the Heresy Magnus led his sons in the study of arcane lore and the practice of sorcery despite the Emperor's warnings to stay clear of such matters. However, they remained loyal to both the EMperor and humanity despite their growing preoccupation with magic.

WHen Horus gathered his forces against the Imperium the Thousand Sons at first tried to use their occult powers to warn the Emperor. Mistrustful of anything tinged by Chaos, the Emperor declared the Thousand Sons heretics and sent Leman Russ and the Space Wolves to devastate the Thousand Sons' home world of Prospero. The Thousand Sons were driven into a war against their Emperor and had to fight alongside Chaos to survive and protect their accumulated wisdom."

 

The Space Wolves attacking Prospero played a part in it, but it was only one step of many in the Thousand Sons' path to damnation. A path that had been initiated by Tzeentch from the very beginning.

 

Some Primarchs had been intentionally directed to certain planets in order to shape them in ways the Chaos gods were unable to via direct manipulation inside their incubation capsules. In some cases that worked into bringing them up in a way that woudl allow the Chaos gods to ultimately corrupt them. Others were more fortunate. If Guilliman has been discovered by Gallan the traitor Consul, he might have been raised similarly greedy and hungry for power. But he was found by the noble Konor instead, after he had dreamed of a mighty warrior in golden armour delivering a child to him.

 

 

and yea, i love the shades of grey in 40k. its what makes the background so interesting.

Oh, there are "shades of grey" in 40K. But there most definitely is black as well. :)

 

 

I am not sure you can clain that all Primarchs were in some way arrogant. Was Khan arrogant? There are conceivable issues he could have been arrogant about, but is he ever really described as such? What about Ferrus Manus? He not so much believes that he is the strongest, but more aspires to be strong.

Guilliman is often seen as arrogant for "forcing his doctrines upon others", but to me such a statement seems ignorant of the many instances where Guilliman is described as interesting to learn and the instances where he adopts elements of his brothers' doctrines. It also seems to attribute all decisions of the reformations after the Heresy directly to Guilliman and Guilliman only, without considering that the reforms were politically motivated and initiated by the High Lords, and not just Guilliman jumping at an opportunity to change things up according to his ideas. If anything, he seems naive in expecting that his brothers would be as interested in learning new doctrines as he was when he offers his treatises to them.

[eyeslikethunder]

Why would ascension to Godhood damn all mankind? The Emperor being a full god was the final part of his plan I believe, and certainly the best way to defeat the gods who were enemies of mankind and be the salvation of mankind.

 

He wouldn't tolerate the destruction or enslavement of humanity since the Emperor would have to lose his mind for that to occur and cease being the Emperor. :)

 

I doubt, without hard evidence he'd believe the Emperor turned against humanity. Daemonic influence could do it though, just like Horus and Fulgrim who were both very loyal. Incidently I believe only a few Primarchs could resist Daemonic influence no matter how powerful. Sanguinius would certainly choose death over anything else.

I agree that Gulliman could be turned but only with great difficulty certainly one the hardest.

 

I dont believe that the emperor is seeking to Damn/destroy mankind. He been has tricked into seeking godhood. It's the end point of the horus heresy the thing that the Chaos powers are seeking. They are planning to make the Emperor mankinds Slannesh.

 

What happened to the Eldar when slannesh rose to "Godhood" he ripped a vast whole in the barrier between the warp and Reality and consumed most the Eldar souls and destroyed their civilisation.

This is the terrible event the Cabal are seeking to avoid(although they are being used as well. The prophesy machine says horus will be warmaster in 4 years, oh he already is, should we wonder why maybe the machine is being interfered with no lets just carry on)

This is the end point the Chaos powers are seeking. They have engineered the emperor into this place showing him the vision but making him have to work just hard enough to get it. The Emperor thinks the vision is one that has slipped through the grasp of the Chaos powers one they don't want him to see after all this time of being blinded. But they are already shown to be planning for him to see it and take actions that would come from seeing it.

 

After all if the Emperor does not see the vision when horus drops his shields he would have just gunned him down. Instead he teleports aboard.

 

They show Horus the vision of Emperor seeking godhood to turn him then make horus and magnus take actions that forces the Emperor into a place where he does seek godhood

 

 

They have managed to change the Anathema into one of them dependant for his power on the same source as them.

They certainly dont seemed concerned with the fact he will be a god with them

[Pulse]

I dont believe that the emperor is seeking to enslave mankind. He been has tricked into seeking godhood. It's the end point of the horus heresy the thing that the Chaos powers are seeking. They are planning to make the Emperor mankinds Slannesh.

:rolleyes:

[eyeslikethunder]

Want do believe the end game is a couple of extra daemon princes and few soldiers :rolleyes:

Your lack of vision is disappointing........

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I am not touching that thread. All it looks like is "SW are awesome and bada**! Of course they did it and walked away!" and "No! GK are better! They're the Chuck Norris of the 40k-verse! This story is a lie!". And then you get one or two people who are actually trying to have a reasonable debate. Like so many threads here.

 

Now let's look at this from an objectionable view. I could be wrong, but there is a very strong impression given that GW is keeping a very close eye on the Heresy series. The event for KNF shows that it is more than just idle fascination. The Heresy is their big time baby. One could very strongly argue that if the rest of BL is not "canon", at the very least the Heresy series is in a way that even Forgeworld isn't. Which would mean that while fans aren't too happy with Battle for the Abyss and Nemesis, they are as valid a source as any GW sourcebook. Provided my theory is correct. Now, in the dual POV we see some divergences from the IA article and Codex. Very small and relatively unimportant divergences. Mostly when Magnus found out about Tzeentch manipulating him. The other divergence is that Magnus is not a cyclops. Yes, he has one eye but he is not a cyclops. GW-approved BL publication shows that Magnus gave his eye to steal the threads of fate concerning his Sons so that he could save them from the Flesh Change.

 

And despite his rebellious attitude concerning the Edict that could be likened to a teenager ignoring the curfew, he was loyal. How many Primarchs have we seen recovered form the fact that Horus turned Traitor so well? I mean come on, he found out about it and instead of going "Do what?" with a dumbfound expression while everyone died, he took action. He tried to warn the Emperor about it. Which had the unfortunate side effect of wrecking the Imperial Webway.

 

We even see in the SW account that the SW find out after the events of Prospero(immediately after) that Magnus was loyal. "Misguided, but loyal."(put in quotes because it was a direct quote from the book)

 

As far as enslaving-godhood thing, everything is in relative terms. Modern society has put the image that slavery must come with whips and brutal punishment for the slightest error. However, an objectionable view shows that slavery isn't always so "evil".(Again, a relative term) Basically, slavery is a state of complete and total servitude. This is demonstrated most obviously with the serfs of Space Marine Chapters and with Septimus and Octavia.

 

The initial infrastructure of the Imperium that we see is that while it is not brutal, it is very demanding. It requires everyone to live a very structured lifestyle doing a specific role. Much like the craftworld eldar lifestyle, but without the option of changing paths. So while this isn't the brutal connotation of what the word carries, it is still enslavement. And to be honest, we don't know if the Emperor was tricked into godhood or if he actually chose it of his own free will. He was a psyker of immeasurable power. Chaos feared him and labeled him as the Anathema. But they also feared Malal because he fed off of them. His power was a cumulative of all their power.

 

Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle are empowered by Humanity. As Humanity's devotion(read as loyalty for the secular variant) became more and more focused on him, he would start to replace them. In a way, he would become similar to Malal. The difference is that he would carry both the good and bad reflections of the human psyche-spectrum. The problem would be which part of the spectrum would have dominance? See here see of a debate on the dual nature of Chaos.

[Captain Idaho]

I dont believe that the emperor is seeking to enslave mankind. He been has tricked into seeking godhood. It's the end point of the horus heresy the thing that the Chaos powers are seeking. They are planning to make the Emperor mankinds Slannesh.

 

What happened to the Eldar when slannesh rose to "Godhood" he ripped a vast whole in the barrier between the warp and Reality and consumed most the Eldar souls and destroyed their civilisation.

 

....

 

An interesting theory actually. Totally unanswerable and pure educated conjecture from both sides, but I personally believe the Emperor would have been a much more benevolent god to the Chaos Gods. Slaannesh wasn't consiously created nor a previously existant being, whilst the Emperor was a powerful becoming a god. I believe he could have kept his ideals and morality somewhat had he become a full god.

[eyeslikethunder]

I dont believe that the emperor is seeking to Damn/destroy mankind. He been has tricked into seeking godhood. It's the end point of the horus heresy the thing that the Chaos powers are seeking. They are planning to make the Emperor mankinds Slannesh.

 

What happened to the Eldar when slannesh rose to "Godhood" he ripped a vast whole in the barrier between the warp and Reality and consumed most the Eldar souls and destroyed their civilisation.

An interesting theory actually. Totally unanswerable and pure educated conjecture from both sides, but I personally believe the Emperor would have been a much more benevolent god to the Chaos Gods. Slaannesh wasn't consiously created nor a previously existant being, whilst the Emperor was a powerful becoming a god. I believe he could have kept his ideals and morality somewhat had he become a full god.

 

I would much prefer GW went the Trust the emperor he has a plan theory but suspect this is the route GW are going.

I would expect that he would be much more benevolent.

This makes me think that during his transformation he will have little control of the process until it is complete(maybe even afterwards the soul consumption might be beyond his control) otherwise why would the Chaos powers be starting a process that would create them a mighty rival. After all if they had not tricked magnus there wouldn't be vision and the Emperor would not be doing the godhood thing and they show from the beginning they know he is change paths and do so.

 

It will be interesting to see where GW go

[Vesper]

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

Dorn ? Not arrogant ?

-> Iron Cage.

[Legatus]

For what it's worth, here is a description of the Emperor and his relation to the Chaos powers from 'Slaves to Darkness - The Lost and the Damned'. Now, this is an outdated source, from the days of 1st Edition. The 40K universe was very different back then. But this is how the creators of 40K had originally envisioned it.

"The New Man

Within a year the man later to be known as the Emperor was born. As he grew older his powers began to manifest themselves and he gradually remembered teh thousands of lives that lay behind him. He was the New Man. But he was also the past. His powerful mind could still sift the natural energies of the warp, enter the lives of plants and animals, promote harmony, and ease the suffering of others. And he remembered how he was made to live forever, so that he would never have to reincarnate, but would survive unchanged for eternity. At least he remembered everything that had led up to his birth, and he left his own people to begin his endless journey around the world and through human history.

 

The Emperor and Human History

For thirty eight thousand years the New Man wandered over the Earth and through human history. At first he merely observed the world about him, but soon he began to help where he could, using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology, and peace. He always used his influence carefully, adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature.

Over the millennia the Emperor watched the human race develop. He travelled the entire globe, watching and helping, sometimes adopting a persona of a great leader or advisor. In times of trouble he became a crusader, a religious leader or messiah, at other times he remained a back-stage contributor to events, an advisor to kings, a court magician, a pioneering scientist. Many of the guises he adopted were humble, others became monumental figures of world history or religion. At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see.

 

The Emperor and the Powers of Chaos

As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how extreme sides of human character were feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance, and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated. Some of the New Man's plans were less than successful: seed of wisdom often failed to flourish or grew into uncontrollable monstrosities leading to prosecution and war.

The Chaos Powers sensed the presence of the New Man and his efforts to curb their own power and growth. Even before they became fully conscious the Chaos Powers recognised the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was the next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming many souls for their Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness. The fourth Power, Slaanesh, still slumbered. "

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

Dorn ? Not arrogant ?

-> Iron Cage.

 

Angry, vengeful, probably unhinged, but not arrogant.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

Dorn ? Not arrogant ?

-> Iron Cage.

 

Angry, vengeful, probably unhinged, but not arrogant.

 

WLK

 

Let me quote my very own White Dwarf 85 (french edition) IA Iron warriors :

"Rogal Dorn déclara publiquement qu'il l'amènerait sur Terra dans une cage de fer. Roboute Guilliman demanda à Dorn de le laisser venir avec lui, mais comme l'avait planifié Perturabo, le Primarque des Imperial Fists fut trop arrogant et entreprit cette mission seul."

 

In english : RD publicly said that he would bring him to Terra in an iron cage. RG asked Dorn to let him come with him, but as Perturabo planned, the IF primarch was too arrogant and began this mission on his own.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Wolves perception that they are the Emperor's "legion killers" is a new relevation fromt he HH novel series, but even before that i would label the Wolves are arrogant. I would label all the primarchs as arrogant in some way with the exception of Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

Dorn ? Not arrogant ?

-> Iron Cage.

 

Angry, vengeful, probably unhinged, but not arrogant.

 

WLK

 

Let me quote my very own White Dwarf 85 (french edition) IA Iron warriors :

"Rogal Dorn déclara publiquement qu'il l'amènerait sur Terra dans une cage de fer. Roboute Guilliman demanda à Dorn de le laisser venir avec lui, mais comme l'avait planifié Perturabo, le Primarque des Imperial Fists fut trop arrogant et entreprit cette mission seul."

 

In english : RD publicly said that he would bring him to Terra in an iron cage. RG asked Dorn to let him come with him, but as Perturabo planned, the IF primarch was too arrogant and began this mission on his own.

 

Well, a few things about that quote: (1) it comes from the Iron Warriors article, so it can be seen as somewhat bias. (2) the Dorn that led the attack on the Iron Cage was NOT the same Dorn who served during the Great Crusade. He was a man fueled by anger and grief. You cant accurately judge a man's entire character by a bad period in his life.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

Well, a few things about that quote: (1) it comes from the Iron Warriors article, so it can be seen as somewhat bias. (2) the Dorn that led the attack on the Iron Cage was NOT the same Dorn who served during the Great Crusade. He was a man fueled by anger and grief. You cant accurately judge a man's entire character by a bad period in his life.

 

WLK

 

1: We can objectivly assume that Dorn, when leading his legion in this battle was an arrogant prick who got humiliated by Perturabo for his over confidence and his refusal of help. All those are facts.

 

2: Agree with that. But it was still arrogance. Written black on white.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, a few things about that quote: (1) it comes from the Iron Warriors article, so it can be seen as somewhat bias. (2) the Dorn that led the attack on the Iron Cage was NOT the same Dorn who served during the Great Crusade. He was a man fueled by anger and grief. You cant accurately judge a man's entire character by a bad period in his life.

 

WLK

 

1: We can objectivly assume that Dorn, when leading his legion in this battle was an arrogant prick who got humiliated by Perturabo for his over confidence and his refusal of help. All those are facts.

 

2: Agree with that. But it was still arrogance. Written black on white.

 

Assuming doesnt equal facts. If you read the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article, you get a vastly different view of what happened at the Iron Cage.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

Yes, in fact, I tend to find the IW one closer to the reality because the narator doubt about why Perturabo choose to let the IF live. In the IF IA, it's just : "They were awesome to the max, Rogal Dorn was god on earth.", which is far closer to pure propaganda and is less credible. Ergo, I'll stick with the arrogant Rogal Dorn who made a serious mistake.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yes, in fact, I tend to find the IW one closer to the reality because the narator doubt about why Perturabo choose to let the IF live. In the IF IA, it's just : "They were awesome to the max, Rogal Dorn was god on earth.", which is far closer to pure propaganda and is less credible. Ergo, I'll stick with the arrogant Rogal Dorn who made a serious mistake.

 

“Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view”

 

Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

I do agree, for sure. But then, wisdom sould be to not formulate a clear statement on RG's arrogance. And so we part even.

[eyeslikethunder]

For what it's worth, here is a description of the Emperor and his relation to the Chaos powers from 'Slaves to Darkness - The Lost and the Damned'. Now, this is an outdated source, from the days of 1st Edition. The 40K universe was very different back then. But this is how the creators of 40K had originally envisioned it.

"The New Man

Within a year the man later to be known as the Emperor was born. As he grew older his powers began to manifest themselves and he gradually remembered teh thousands of lives that lay behind him. He was the New Man. But he was also the past. His powerful mind could still sift the natural energies of the warp, enter the lives of plants and animals, promote harmony, and ease the suffering of others. And he remembered how he was made to live forever, so that he would never have to reincarnate, but would survive unchanged for eternity. At least he remembered everything that had led up to his birth, and he left his own people to begin his endless journey around the world and through human history.

 

The Emperor and Human History

For thirty eight thousand years the New Man wandered over the Earth and through human history. At first he merely observed the world about him, but soon he began to help where he could, using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology, and peace. He always used his influence carefully, adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature.

Over the millennia the Emperor watched the human race develop. He travelled the entire globe, watching and helping, sometimes adopting a persona of a great leader or advisor. In times of trouble he became a crusader, a religious leader or messiah, at other times he remained a back-stage contributor to events, an advisor to kings, a court magician, a pioneering scientist. Many of the guises he adopted were humble, others became monumental figures of world history or religion. At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see.

 

The Emperor and the Powers of Chaos

As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how extreme sides of human character were feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance, and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated. Some of the New Man's plans were less than successful: seed of wisdom often failed to flourish or grew into uncontrollable monstrosities leading to prosecution and war.

The Chaos Powers sensed the presence of the New Man and his efforts to curb their own power and growth. Even before they became fully conscious the Chaos Powers recognised the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was the next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming many souls for their Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness. The fourth Power, Slaanesh, still slumbered. "

It always good to see how the old fluff has evolved(must dig out my slaves to darkness). Now the Chaos powers seem to be able to source from all the psychic races and seem to pre-date mankind(slannesh is the exception) being a creation of old ones/necron war according to older necron book

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn has been labelled as the most humble of the Primarchs in several sources.

[Billuriye]

Dorn has been labelled as the most humble of the Primarchs in several sources.

 

Same was said for Sanguinius too. Not that its a superb quality.

[Legionator]

Dorn has been labelled as the most humble of the Primarchs in several sources.

 

Same was said for Sanguinius too. Not that its a superb quality.

 

Same was said for Vulkan too.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Would they have been comfortable being led by the brother who seemed to be more interested in the non-military pursuits than the rest of them? I could see the more war-like Primarchs resenting having the "Governor" being put over them, regardless of the fact he was an incredibly accomplished commander; it would be like Lorgar being named Warmaster, or Vulkan, or Alpharius - guys known for traits other than, well, being masters of war.

Guilliman was a well respected general and feared warrior. The fact that he was also an accomplished statesman wouldn't have caused too much concern. The primarchs who would have resented Guilliman likely resented Horus too. But that's just because they are proud and would be displeased with one of their brothers raised over them. Guilliman was a consumate warrior. He wasn't anything like Lorgar or Alpharius. He just apparently wasn't as likable as Horus or Sanguinius. He was probably similar to Patton in that he wasn't really liked by his peers, but he was definitely well respected.

 

As far as the Heresy goes, I don't see there being a huge change. Horus's corruption of both himself and the other traitors had little to do with being Warmaster. He would have still been present at the same battles most likely, and his influence over his brothers the same.