Help with 500pts against orks

[whitey161]

Hi,

 

Played 3 small battles against my mates orks last night and lost all three. I dont usually have a problem when we go at 1200 or above because i take a vulkan led list of flamers and meltas but this was 500 pts and i lost all of em.

 

It was combat patrol set up and mission but at 500 pts on a 4x3 board.

 

He took:

Big mek with KFF

20 ork boys (sluggas and choppas)

12 orks boys sluggas choppas, PK in a truck

12 ork shotas with BS

 

I took:

Librarian

2 x Speeders w MM and HF

10 tac marines in rhino

5 tac marines.

 

Speeders were awesome as awlays but he waaaged and charged sooner than i would like.

 

Not expecting awesome builds just aybe an idea of a unit that would work well in a small combat patrol.

I have most things models from bikes.

[MagicMan]

Against that list, a beaut' of a squad is the Tactical.

 

 

Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Missile launcher, Rhino.

 

 

Have the Librarian run with them, combat squad the unit. 4 Dudes babysit the missile launcher while he takes pot shots at the Trukk/uses frag missiles on the boyz/holds down a home objective.

 

The other half of the squad with the Librarian, can lay down three flame templates in a turn, and two in every turn after (Avenger psychic power).

 

 

The only thing in that list that can open a Rhino is the PK, and its not hugely hard to stay away from it, so use that advantage and zip around spewing fire out of the APC.

[DarkGuard]

What MagicMan said. Try to stay in your transports, in there you're protected.

 

Also, do you have any Typhoons? I find them better against Orks than MM/HF Speeders due to the increased range. Though as you run a Vulkan list it'd be understandable if you didn't.

 

If you must get out of a transport make it count. Point your transport at the side of the Mob squad, tank shock, bunch them up and then get out with about 10 hits each from your flamer templates, works a charm.

 

Finally, I'll sign off with my usual "Marines aren't designed for 500pts" moan. Basically, with the cost of our units, the fact that many other armies have better Troops than us, it's hard to make a good 500pts Space Marine army. My suggestion would be to propose an amendment to the force org chart similar to 4th Ed 40K in 40 minutes, namely only needing 1 Troops, max of 1 HQ, and believe the other slots were limited as well. Gives you more variety and lets you use some of the units you'd have found hard to fit in the first time. As you're friends and you've had to drop a load of points I don't think he could begrudge you that small favour.

[whitey161]

Thanks for the response. I had the 10 man tac squad in the rhino with flamer and ML but moved to close and he waaagh charged with the PK and popped it open. the idea of combat squadding them is much better :)

 

The rules were combat patrol so 500pts, 1 troops and 1 hq, no more than 2 wound models etc.

 

Thank you for feedback i like the roaming rhino flamer idea and will try that.

[MagicMan]

With the lack of Power Klaws / Lootas in that list (A huge blessing, believe me) squeezing a dread in might not be a bad idea.

 

 

The only thing in his army that can hurt a Dread is the Nob with a Power Klaw, so the Dread can hold up entire squads indefinitely while he smushes them into the floor. Plus he comes with some decent long range firepower. Even the PK isn't a definite against the Dread, since he'll need to roll to hit it.

 

 

Likewise with the Rhino, always keep it moving, you don't want auto-hits on it.

 

 

A sweet tactic, just because Ork players aren't expecting it, move 6'' and shoot etc with the Tacs inside the Rhino. Next turn, don't move the Rhino, have your guys get out, burn some Orks, and charge! Orks hate to be charged. Don't be afraid to do it.

 

In a combat with Orks where you've charged, the regular greenies need a 5 to even wound you. Its something to bear in mind anyway.

 

 

 

Oh and if you have it, a Whirlwind is a steal at 85 points. Anything that ignores cover is golden against an army with a Mek with KFF. A whirlwind can ignore cover, and gets a fat old pie plate.

[Raptor84]

Just expanding on whats been said here, however, if you are combat squadding then why not upgrade the rhino to a razorback, you lose the ability to flame out of it sure but you can whack a heavy bolter or heavy flamer on top and keep whittling them down from a distance. Just something else you could try.

[breng77]

I'm surprised more people have not asked about the set up on a 4x 3 board. A 3" board is highly advantageous to orks. Especially if you are using say normal deployment (pitched battle at 12" in now only has a 12" gap between armies. Which means that Truck (if it has red paint) can line up at the 12" line move 13" (25"), deploy orks 2"(27") and Assault 6" "33"), which means on turn 1 he can assault something within 3" of your board edge. It also means that Orks lining up at 12", moving 6" and running 3-4" (21"-22"), turn 1, then Moving 6" (28"), Waaghing (another 3-4" average)(31-32") and Assaulting 6" Can assault more or less anything on the table. Dawn of war is just as bad. Spearhead is really the only deployment that is not effected as much, but you still cannot be very far away. Combat Patrol rules also hurt as they usually outlaw things like Dreads, or other heavy armor. A simple 105 point dread would be a good answer to a mob of orks because if nothing else it can tie them up.

 

That said I would go with the Libby (perhaps with gate to escape.

20 Tac marines with Free Flamers and Heavy bolters or Misslies and a Rhino for Blocking/tank shocking.

[Ming]

Everyone above also seems to ignore the impact of the KFF on keeping mobz alive until they get into the assault. If you move up, he charges you and charges you and keeps charging in every wave. On a smaller game surface, you have no-place to go. Flamers ignore KFF shenanigans, so definitely load up on them, librarian with gate and avenger, might as well not even have the rhino and use the points to get more dakka (or combiflamers for the sergeants). Focus fire on the closest unit (until they break) and keep the speeders away or use them specifically to hit the unit carrying the big mek

(or up trade for a single typhoon and spend leftover points on even more dakka).

[breng77]

The issue with Flamers is that sure they kill some orks, but it also means you end up in the assault. I'm not really sure that without say dreads, that marines can handle orks at 500 points.

[DarkGuard]

And then there's the thunderfire cannon and Whirlwind, both have cover save ignoring options and range, and will hit a lot of models, especially the TFC.

[Brother Ambroz]

TFC while a good option is really vulnerable on a small board like that though. What about putting something with more ranged dakka on the speeders intead of the MM?

[Montuhotep]

TFC while a good option is really vulnerable on a small board like that though. What about putting something with more ranged dakka on the speeders intead of the MM?

A shame the assault cannon on Speeders is so many points because weight of shot count would be nice. How about dropping the MM upgrades and keeping with the Heavy Bolters for a Bolter/Flamer combo instead? You could make the case that the only real target for the MM is the Trukk, aside from one certain kill per turn each, the heavy bolter could make it nearer 3 kills a turn with the Heavy Flamer chipping a few away as well. It would also save you 20 points. Since Trukks are open topped, the speeders could just burn the contents instead of killing the Trukk outright.

 

If I have my maths right, if you do this and can find another 5 points from somewhere (hard with a 500 list) then you could swap out the rhino for a Twin-Link Heavy Flamer on a Razorback. Or keep with the standard twin-link Heavy Bolter and save 15 points. Reason being that although the Flame Back may work it'll have to get close to do so. Twin HB will allow more of a 'stand off' capability whilst increasing your shot count even more.

 

Even with the KFF, he'll be failing some saves sometime just through sheer weight of fire directed at him.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm echoing the TFC. The no-cover-save airburst rounds are also S5 AP6, so you're wounding on 3+ and cutting through all of his saves. Plus, to help with the fragility issue, you can put some Tactical Marines in front of it. Now it gets a cover save against any ork shooting, has a unit that can physically block charges on it (or even pre-emptively charge), and if a lucky round gets the cannon, the Techmarine has an immediate unit to join and boom -- there's another flamer on your side. And it's only 100 points.

[Ming]

I agree, if in this 500 point combat patrol he can take a TFC, would be awesome....

[MagicMan]

I'm surprised more people have not asked about the set up on a 4x 3 board. A 3" board is highly advantageous to orks.

 

 

Yah its a definite boner-kill, but its what me and my friends play on at <500 pts.

 

 

To be fair a large board can be highly advantageous to Space Marines. We used to play small games on a regular board, and i would generally refuse-flank his Orks meaning he had to spend ages to get anywhere near me.

 

Its tough on a smaller board, but not unwinnable.

[Muctar]

After a quick browse, I've noticed that a few people have advocated the use of flamer and combi-flamer on the tactical squad, which is great. However, I've also seen at least a response which has sent a message of trying to stay out of combat. In the case of orks, especially at 500 points, marines are going to end up in combat eventually. It's not an 'if', it's a 'when'.

 

As a result, a great trick is to use your rhino mounted flamer/combi-flamer combat squad to move 7-12" when the orks are likely to be in charge range. Don't forget about the Waaagh movement either. Keep the rhino far enough away so when the boyz assault it cannot be surrounded. They most likely will do some damage, perhaps even wreck or explode it. In any case, next turn get out, move up, double flame the bunched up greenskins and assault the survivors.

 

Charging orks before they charge you paramount because you will deny them furious charge, which is the linchpin rule to the success of mobs of boyz. Of course softening them up is highly recommended, especially the biggest mobs. If you do this in addition to some of the advice others has given you should see more success come from your army against your friend.

[whitey161]

Wow lots of good advice there. thankyou for all the responses. I would love to take a dread but as someone noticed the combat patrol rules dont allow it.

 

On our 4x3 board we set up on the narrow sides so that we still have 24" between our deployment zones. No way am i giving him the ability of a first turn charge.

 

Hmm dont have a thunderfire cannon, maybe a new investment perhaps.

 

Thank you again for the feedback

[pueriexdeus]

My list for a similar type of game is:

 

Chappi

Tac Sqd x10, Flmr, ML Sgt w/PW/BP. Rzrbk w/TLLC, PMSB, HKM

Dev Sqd x5, 2X HB SGT w/Signum, Bltr

 

Stick the Chappi with half the Tac Sqd in the Rzrbk

 

Leave the Devs and the remaining Tac's w/ML on your home obj.

 

Remove all his transport immediately, threaten his obj with the Rzrbk, does not mean you have to attack it. And make him walk across the board to you.

 

It works for me.

[DarkGuard]

You know if you took all the upgrades off the Razorback you could fit in another couple of heavy bolters? 500pts games are all about points efficiency, more than other games. You have to squeeze usefulness out of each point. Just some advice in general to bear in mind. :)

[Guest Bucelufe]

I would go with the following:

Master of the Forge

5 Tactical marines

5 Scouts with mix of snipers and boltguns

2 Vindicators

Any remaining points combi weapons on the Sgts of the 2 squads

[dswanick]

This is what I would try :

500 Pts - Space Marines Roster
Troops: Tactical Squad (8#, 222 pts)
  1 Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character; Psyker; Smite; The Avenger)
  6 Tactical Squad, 122 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x6; Bolter x6; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 170 pts)
  9 Tactical Squad, 170 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x8; Missile Launcher; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon (1#, 100 pts)
  1 Thunderfire Cannon, 100 pts ((C:SM, pg. 73 & 142); Unit Type: Artillery; Thunderfire Cannon)
  1 Techmarine Gunner ((C:SM, pg. 73 & 142); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol; Thunderfire Cannon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Blessing of the Omnissiah; Bolster Defenses; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
	 1 Servo Harness

Total Roster Cost: 492

Look to deploy second, pick one flank concentrate in, Combat Squad the ML and deploy it to protect the TFC, deploy the smaller Tac squad forward with the Libby and withdraw while shooting, and just keep shooting, charge as neede to take away his Furious Charge.