DA Colour Scheme

[CyderPirate]

Im getting some conflicting information as to precisely what the Dark Angel colour scheme was during the Heresy.

 

 

 

I always presumed it was black with white detailing, but it isnt necessarily. Thats 'pre' heresy as the sources list it.

 

 

Then Ive found that rogue trader listed it as black with a red stripe down the centre of the helmet with red or white detailing. Again 'pre' heresy – and in some cases referred to as 'pre' Caliban.

 

 

Then I find someone on the Dark angels website telling me that the dark green starts coming after 'post' caliban. So initially i assume that it means after the battle of Caliban… however the implication was then that its after Lion'el is first discovered, which would mean that the green starts appearing much earlier.

 

 

About the only thing I can absolutely confirm is that the Deathwing and Ravenwing colour schemes havent changed at all (save possibly for a red stripe) on the helm. Ravenwing are still basically black, and Deathwing are still not bone white.

 

 

Can someone confirm please?

[Legatus]

Then Ive found that rogue trader listed it as black with a red stripe down the centre of the helmet with red or white detailing. Again 'pre' heresy – and in some cases referred to as 'pre' Caliban.

The stripe on the Marine's helmet was a rank indication convention from 1st Edition. A red stripe indicated a "Trooper", alternating red and black referred to a Veteran, red with yellow borders was a Sergeant, red with white then black borders a Captain, and so on. Some Chapters had different conventions, such as Ultramarines and Iron Hands using white stripes for Troopers, Space Wolves using yellow stripes, and Blood Angels using black.

 

In 2nd Edition, and even sooner, during the later years of 1st, the ranking conventions were completely revised. You can completely ignore those stripes in terms of "in-universe" traditional Chapter colors. They are only interesting as an "out-universe" history of the development of the chapter.

 

 

About the only thing I can absolutely confirm is that the Deathwing and Ravenwing colour schemes havent changed at all (save possibly for a red stripe) on the helm. Ravenwing are still basically black, and Deathwing are still not bone white.

Similar to the red helmet stripe, the red unit and chapter markings from 1st Edition can be ignored. The color scheme shown in the WH40K Rogue Trader rulebook was not intended as a "pre-heresy" paintscheme, but as the current day scheme of the Dark Angels Chapter. That has been changed to green later during 1st Edition. The Dark Angels Index Astartes shows black armour with white markings as their pre-heresy paint scheme (which is also the contemporary color scheme of the Ravenwing), and it states that the armor color scheme was changed for unknown reasons following the Horus Heresy.

 

The Deathwing armour had initially been black as well, and had remained black after the Heresy, similar to the Ravenwing color scheme. The Deathwing was changed to white much later, in honor of a unit of Terminators that fought a genestealer infestation on one of their recruitment worlds. Since it was a campaign against genestealers, it could not have been much more than one or maybe two or three millennia ago, so for the first 7000 years following the Heresy, Dark Angels Terminators were black.

[esinhorn]

New books say units that were born on Caliban had a green on the left shoulder under the badge.

It was a mark of Calibans forests,it was in the short story in AoD.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

not all did, it says they were entitled to wear it if they chose too.

 

There are 2 colour schemes for the DA pre-Caliban: Black armour with a red symbol OR Black armour with a white symbol. Either is acceptable. Personally, I favour the Red symbol as I think it looks really cool, but the Index Astartes indicates that White was used rather than red.

 

Some time after the fall of Caliban, the DA Chapter changed their scheme to Green and White for the 3-10 companies. The 1st had Black and Red and the second Black and White. After the Plains World incident, the DW changed their scheme to Bone/ash-white and Red to remember and honour the fallen comrades who cleansed the world. Also, the symbol of the DW was changed to a broken winged sword to honour the commander of the DW squads that went to the world as a broken sword was his personal symbol.

 

I hope this helps you.

[Harleqvin]

Then Ive found that rogue trader listed it as black with a red stripe down the centre of the helmet with red or white detailing. Again 'pre' heresy – and in some cases referred to as 'pre' Caliban.

The stripe on the Marine's helmet was a rank indication convention from 1st Edition. A red stripe indicated a "Trooper", alternating red and black referred to a Veteran, red with yellow borders was a Sergeant, red with white then black borders a Captain, and so on. Some Chapters had different conventions, such as Ultramarines and Iron Hands using white stripes for Troopers, Space Wolves using yellow stripes, and Blood Angels using black.

 

In 2nd Edition, and even sooner, during the later years of 1st, the ranking conventions were completely revised. You can completely ignore those stripes in terms of "in-universe" traditional Chapter colors. They are only interesting as an "out-universe" history of the development of the chapter.

 

 

About the only thing I can absolutely confirm is that the Deathwing and Ravenwing colour schemes havent changed at all (save possibly for a red stripe) on the helm. Ravenwing are still basically black, and Deathwing are still not bone white.

Similar to the red helmet stripe, the red unit and chapter markings from 1st Edition can be ignored. The color scheme shown in the WH40K Rogue Trader rulebook was not intended as a "pre-heresy" paintscheme, but as the current day scheme of the Dark Angels Chapter. That has been changed to green later during 1st Edition. The Dark Angels Index Astartes shows black armour with white markings as their pre-heresy paint scheme (which is also the contemporary color scheme of the Ravenwing), and it states that the armor color scheme was changed for unknown reasons following the Horus Heresy.

 

The Deathwing armour had initially been black as well, and had remained black after the Heresy, similar to the Ravenwing color scheme. The Deathwing was changed to white much later, in honor of a unit of Terminators that fought a genestealer infestation on one of their recruitment worlds. Since it was a campaign against genestealers, it could not have been much more than one or maybe two or three millennia ago, so for the first 7000 years following the Heresy, Dark Angels Terminators were black.

 

 

I actually thought it said that the red stripe was the determining factor of veteran status and the continuing other stripes for sergeants and so forth for distinction from the rest of the veterans that may have been in the same squad and whatnot. but I would need to double check that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Some time after the fall of Caliban, the DA Chapter changed their scheme to Green and White for the 3-10 companies. The 1st had Black and Red and the second Black and White. After the Plains World incident, the DW changed their scheme to Bone/ash-white and Red to remember and honour the fallen comrades who cleansed the world. Also, the symbol of the DW was changed to a broken winged sword to honour the commander of the DW squads that went to the world as a broken sword was his personal symbol.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

I'm not sure the Plains World incident actually occurred. To me, it's a parable for the Fall, as would be told to lower-ranked brethren. Think about it, the Dark Angels are crusading around the galaxy, and return to their world to find it corrupted. They fight to cleanse it, and their leader falls while fighting the leader of the enemy, defeating them in the process. In addition, the survivors are forever marked by what happened there. Now, why does that story sound familiar?

 

We're already told that the Dark Angels are told countless metaphors of the Fall, seeing which are capable of joining the inner circle. The Plains World story is just one of those stories. Swap the Plains World for Caliban, and the genestealers for the Fallen, and it's the same story.

[Bane of Angels]

Then Ive found that rogue trader listed it as black with a red stripe down the centre of the helmet with red or white detailing. Again 'pre' heresy – and in some cases referred to as 'pre' Caliban.

 

What you have to remember about the RT scheme is that although it was the original inspiration behind the pre-heresy colours RT stuff was set in the 40k present day so shouldn't be relied on completely as a source of pre-heresy material. The confusion comes from the original RT era models being used for the original Heresy setting simply because the concept of established alternative armour marks or vehicle designs didn't really exist at the time Adeptu Mechanicus and Space Marine ere released.

I'd go with the stuff in the heresy artwork books and the IA article personally speaking.

 

Having said that though Legions were massive and there is nothing to say that armour colours were identical in chapters/companies so you do have room to play around with artistic licence.

[Haranin]

Rule of cool, and what looks good to you?

 

If it looks good, or at least consistent, most people aren't going to nit pick you.

 

Ultimately, you are the one who has to paint and play with your army the most. What looks good to you? That is what matters.

[Deathwing70]

Also, the symbol of the DW was changed to a broken winged sword to honour the commander of the DW squads that went to the world as a broken sword was his personal symbol.

 

Never heard about that part. Was always pretty sure it represented the Lion's sword breaking during his duel with Luther (Cypher carries it) and in a sence the legion breaking aswell with the fallen and such. Seeing as the Deathwing is the level of rank you need to be to start learning about this stuff in the Chapter this seemed plausible.

 

Offcourse a story like "it was his personal symbol, so we changed the symbol in the entire company/circle to honour him" would make it easier to explain it to outsiders.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Then Ive found that rogue trader listed it as black with a red stripe down the centre of the helmet with red or white detailing. Again 'pre' heresy – and in some cases referred to as 'pre' Caliban.

 

What you have to remember about the RT scheme is that although it was the original inspiration behind the pre-heresy colours RT stuff was set in the 40k present day so shouldn't be relied on completely as a source of pre-heresy material. The confusion comes from the original RT era models being used for the original Heresy setting simply because the concept of established alternative armour marks or vehicle designs didn't really exist at the time Adeptu Mechanicus and Space Marine ere released.

I'd go with the stuff in the heresy artwork books and the IA article personally speaking.

 

Having said that though Legions were massive and there is nothing to say that armour colours were identical in chapters/companies so you do have room to play around with artistic licence.

The problem with Rogue Trader is that it predates existing fluff. The Horus Heresy didn't exist yet.

 

So the scheme in RT was supposed to be its scheme in the 41st Millenium.

But then the Heresy was concocted, and at first was supposed to be a current event.

Then they decided that they wanted to set 40K long after the Heresy, so the Heresy stopped being 40K, and became 30K instead.

 

 

So, technically, the black scheme is Heresy Era, it's just that the time the Heresy occurred has been altered after the fact. All of the "older Marks" of armor were introduced as the fluff was evolving, and Forge World has helped influence this idea twenty years later so they can sell you overpriced "Heresy Era" armors for your armies that you got inspired to make by reading the books. The original fluff put the Marines already in Mk 6 and Mk 7 armor by the time the Heresy was ending (because that's what the models had at the time, lol). But that's not going to sell you expensive resin kits, so the fluff has been massaged again to say that most Marines were wearing Mk 4 and 5 suits, if not 3.

[Bane of Angels]

Erm...that's exactly what I just said? :)

 

Was that directed at me or Cyderpirate?

[Veteran Sergeant]

Just trying to clarify what you said and add to it. It was a little muddled.

[StrayCatt]

So, technically, the black scheme is Heresy Era, it's just that the time the Heresy occurred has been altered after the fact. All of the "older Marks" of armor were introduced as the fluff was evolving, and Forge World has helped influence this idea twenty years later so they can sell you overpriced "Heresy Era" armors for your armies that you got inspired to make by reading the books. The original fluff put the Marines already in Mk 6 and Mk 7 armor by the time the Heresy was ending (because that's what the models had at the time, lol). But that's not going to sell you expensive resin kits, so the fluff has been massaged again to say that most Marines were wearing Mk 4 and 5 suits, if not 3.

 

 

Umm ... Yes and no ...

 

The other marks of armor were introduced around the time of 2nd edition, and had their 'fluff' has remained virtually changed. Mk6, the predominant armor type in RT, was introduced in small numbers towards during the Heresy. MK 5 was a stopgap design adopted by many chapters during the heresy. And mark 4 was the last version introduced during the crusades. Models for the varying marks have been available since their introduction.

[Emperors Immortals]

Some time after the fall of Caliban, the DA Chapter changed their scheme to Green and White for the 3-10 companies. The 1st had Black and Red and the second Black and White. After the Plains World incident, the DW changed their scheme to Bone/ash-white and Red to remember and honour the fallen comrades who cleansed the world. Also, the symbol of the DW was changed to a broken winged sword to honour the commander of the DW squads that went to the world as a broken sword was his personal symbol.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

I'm not sure the Plains World incident actually occurred. To me, it's a parable for the Fall, as would be told to lower-ranked brethren. Think about it, the Dark Angels are crusading around the galaxy, and return to their world to find it corrupted. They fight to cleanse it, and their leader falls while fighting the leader of the enemy, defeating them in the process. In addition, the survivors are forever marked by what happened there. Now, why does that story sound familiar?

 

We're already told that the Dark Angels are told countless metaphors of the Fall, seeing which are capable of joining the inner circle. The Plains World story is just one of those stories. Swap the Plains World for Caliban, and the genestealers for the Fallen, and it's the same story.

 

 

Am i the only one who thinks thats brilliant? I never thought the genestealer idea carried much weight really, no matter teh sacrifice.

 

Is it your theory LC?

[Haranin]

Am i the only one who thinks thats brilliant? I never thought the genestealer idea carried much weight really, no matter teh sacrifice.

 

Agreed!

 

If I recall the fluff surrounding it has made a change from it happened, to its a legend that is told...

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Dark Angels in the Horus Heresy or just a bit later when marines still fought marines, already were green. Now fanmade stuff might tell otherwise, what might have influence GW as well ie Cypher the Fallen Angel worn Green Power Armour firstly, and was changed to Black in the Black Library books I believe. As of the Black power armor of Dark Angels in Rogue Trader, stuff wasn't fixed for sure, DA even shared background with BA.

 

Cheers.

[Vodunius]

So the scheme in RT was supposed to be its scheme in the 41st Millenium.

But then the Heresy was concocted, and at first was supposed to be a current event.

Then they decided that they wanted to set 40K long after the Heresy, so the Heresy stopped being 40K, and became 30K instead.

 

So, technically, the black scheme is Heresy Era, it's just that the time the Heresy occurred has been altered after the fact. All of the "older Marks" of armor were introduced as the fluff was evolving, and Forge World has helped influence this idea twenty years later so they can sell you overpriced "Heresy Era" armors for your armies that you got inspired to make by reading the books. The original fluff put the Marines already in Mk 6 and Mk 7 armor by the time the Heresy was ending (because that's what the models had at the time, lol). But that's not going to sell you expensive resin kits, so the fluff has been massaged again to say that most Marines were wearing Mk 4 and 5 suits, if not 3.

 

No, there was the occassional cross-contamination (ie: first 40k scale Vindicator was an Emperors Children one from the Siege of Terra) but the Horus Heresy/First Inter-Legionary War was always 30K. It was only current to the epic game system. StrayCatt is correct about the fluff but not the edition, the armour fluff article was in WD129 smack bang in the middle of the RT era as well as the heyday of Epic (the full Space Marine army list for Space Marine 1st edition having been published in WD126) - said article also explictly stated that Mk4s adoption was only half complete when the heresy started, which didn't contradict the existing game line since the Space Marine 1st edition rulebook put 'now' as the period of the 'Heresy' that we would call the Scouring: After Horus death.

 

Of course if you want to muddy things up, alegedly Rick Priestly says that the change from black to green was meant to be a retcon, that the pre-heresy = black was the result of people 'not getting the memo', this is supported somewhat by the fact that WD129 was also the first 'definitive*' appearance of green dark angels, the article does present the DA, BA and Smurf schemes as modern day but the concept sketches for the Ultramarine scheme were published in WD346 and they show the scheme was intended for the late Heresy era (which explains why the Smurfs have always lacked a company colour for scouts, even tho the old scouts had trims: the colours were invented for the Heresy era 9 company system, so there was no 10th)

 

* many people will insist with their dying breath that the marines on the cover of Space Marine 1st edition are in black armour that just looks green because of yellow light.. *cough*colour theory fail *cough*

[Aleax]

So the scheme in RT was supposed to be its scheme in the 41st Millenium.

But then the Heresy was concocted, and at first was supposed to be a current event.

Then they decided that they wanted to set 40K long after the Heresy, so the Heresy stopped being 40K, and became 30K instead.

 

So, technically, the black scheme is Heresy Era, it's just that the time the Heresy occurred has been altered after the fact. All of the "older Marks" of armor were introduced as the fluff was evolving, and Forge World has helped influence this idea twenty years later so they can sell you overpriced "Heresy Era" armors for your armies that you got inspired to make by reading the books. The original fluff put the Marines already in Mk 6 and Mk 7 armor by the time the Heresy was ending (because that's what the models had at the time, lol). But that's not going to sell you expensive resin kits, so the fluff has been massaged again to say that most Marines were wearing Mk 4 and 5 suits, if not 3.

 

No, there was the occassional cross-contamination (ie: first 40k scale Vindicator was an Emperors Children one from the Siege of Terra) but the Horus Heresy/First Inter-Legionary War was always 30K. It was only current to the epic game system. StrayCatt is correct about the fluff but not the edition, the armour fluff article was in WD129 smack bang in the middle of the RT era as well as the heyday of Epic (the full Space Marine army list for Space Marine 1st edition having been published in WD126) - said article also explictly stated that Mk4s adoption was only half complete when the heresy started, which didn't contradict the existing game line since the Space Marine 1st edition rulebook put 'now' as the period of the 'Heresy' that we would call the Scouring: After Horus death.

 

Of course if you want to muddy things up, alegedly Rick Priestly says that the change from black to green was meant to be a retcon, that the pre-heresy = black was the result of people 'not getting the memo', this is supported somewhat by the fact that WD129 was also the first 'definitive*' appearance of green dark angels, the article does present the DA, BA and Smurf schemes as modern day but the concept sketches for the Ultramarine scheme were published in WD346 and they show the scheme was intended for the late Heresy era (which explains why the Smurfs have always lacked a company colour for scouts, even tho the old scouts had trims: the colours were invented for the Heresy era 9 company system, so there was no 10th)

 

* many people will insist with their dying breath that the marines on the cover of Space Marine 1st edition are in black armour that just looks green because of yellow light.. *cough*colour theory fail *cough*

This.

 

Also:

many people will insist with their dying breath that the marines on the cover of Space Marine 1st edition are in black armour that just looks green because of yellow light.. *cough*colour theory fail *cough*

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg213/scale...amp;res=landing

DA are green already during the Horus Heresy.

 

Cheers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm not sure the Plains World incident actually occurred. To me, it's a parable for the Fall, as would be told to lower-ranked brethren. Think about it, the Dark Angels are crusading around the galaxy, and return to their world to find it corrupted. They fight to cleanse it, and their leader falls while fighting the leader of the enemy, defeating them in the process. In addition, the survivors are forever marked by what happened there. Now, why does that story sound familiar?

 

We're already told that the Dark Angels are told countless metaphors of the Fall, seeing which are capable of joining the inner circle. The Plains World story is just one of those stories. Swap the Plains World for Caliban, and the genestealers for the Fallen, and it's the same story.

 

 

Am i the only one who thinks thats brilliant? I never thought the genestealer idea carried much weight really, no matter teh sacrifice.

 

Is it your theory LC?

 

Yep, it's my theory. I was just reading over the story, when I noticed the many, many similarities. After all, when you think about it, the Dark Angels can't say "the Deathwing wear bone-coloured armour because of what happened during the Fall", because the Fall totally never happened, guys. So they've made up a story to explain it, still keeping the same themes and imagery, so that they're subconsciously preparing the listener for the truths of a closer circle. Did the Dark Angels recruit from the Plains World? Probably. They might even have had to fight off an enemy force from there too, and from there sprung a new legend to tell to the newest recruits, beginning their path down the circles.

[Veteran Sergeant]

So, technically, the black scheme is Heresy Era, it's just that the time the Heresy occurred has been altered after the fact. All of the "older Marks" of armor were introduced as the fluff was evolving, and Forge World has helped influence this idea twenty years later so they can sell you overpriced "Heresy Era" armors for your armies that you got inspired to make by reading the books. The original fluff put the Marines already in Mk 6 and Mk 7 armor by the time the Heresy was ending (because that's what the models had at the time, lol). But that's not going to sell you expensive resin kits, so the fluff has been massaged again to say that most Marines were wearing Mk 4 and 5 suits, if not 3.

Umm ... Yes and no ...

 

The other marks of armor were introduced around the time of 2nd edition, and had their 'fluff' has remained virtually changed. Mk6, the predominant armor type in RT, was introduced in small numbers towards during the Heresy. MK 5 was a stopgap design adopted by many chapters during the heresy. And mark 4 was the last version introduced during the crusades. Models for the varying marks have been available since their introduction.

Are you sure? My copy of the Warhammer 40K Compilation (which collected material from White Dwarf and such and is definitely RT and not 2nd Edition as Lexicanum has its publish date as 1991) has the articles on all of the different marks of armor. So they definitely pre-date 2E. I don't have thing with me at work, obviously, but the fluff most certainly pointed at Mk 7 available at the end of the Heresy. I'm fairly sure it has the Mk8 as the only set that had been developed subsequently (as a modification to Mk 7. Up-armored, if you will, lol). However Mk 8 may be from other sources. I'll dig it up and get back to you, however Lexicanum writes: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#.T-iCYlK1Up4 and cites WD: 129 as its source, so I'm going to assume the book will back this up.

 

Models were definitely always available, but in 1 or 2 sculpts per version. They were included as "historical" Marines. However, they were never pushed, nor marketed to any great extent because they weren't principal to any fluff or much of the artwork. The FW versions are definitely much more profit oriented.

[Arkangilos]

Hi.

 

Dark Angels in the Horus Heresy or just a bit later when marines still fought marines, already were green. Now fanmade stuff might tell otherwise, what might have influence GW as well ie Cypher the Fallen Angel worn Green Power Armour firstly, and was changed to Black in the Black Library books I believe. As of the Black power armor of Dark Angels in Rogue Trader, stuff wasn't fixed for sure, DA even shared background with BA.

 

Cheers.

 

Nope. Index Astartes says that preheresy Dark Angels were black. Index Astartes was NOT fan made.

[Aleax]

GW is contradicting itself on that. Look at the link above. Anyway, for me it does not matters. I can see DA power armours being Black at some point before, now they are green. Fine. Also the Black power armoured Fallens IS typically a change from GW due to fans, Cypher was first painted green by GW.

 

Cheers.

[Arkangilos]

GW is contradicting itself on that. Look at the link above. Anyway, for me it does not matters. I can see DA power armours being Black at some point before, now they are green. Fine. Also the Black power armoured Fallens IS typically a change from GW due to fans, Cypher was first painted green by GW.

 

Cheers.

 

Well I can understand the Fallen painting their armor green, too. If it is green, it they are harder to detect as fallen.

 

But I did look at the link above. It doesn't tell me if it is Horus Heresy or not, and if it is Horus Heresy, notice their armor marks are the wrong kind as well.

[Aleax]

Well I can understand the Fallen painting their armor green, too. If it is green, it they are harder to detect as fallen.

Nah, good idea but not the reason.

But I did look at the link above. It doesn't tell me if it is Horus Heresy or not, and if it is Horus Heresy, notice their armor marks are the wrong kind as well.

The link above is the cover of Epic Space Marine 1st edition, which was set precisely during the Horus Heresy.

 

IMO, Dark Angels are meant to be green, from the start, and this was decided in Epic 1st edition (not in Rogue Trader, as they were Black in it). But GW was inclined by fans and the rule of cool to make them black, pre-heresy, as seen in Index Astartes.

 

Cheers.

[Vodunius]

The link above is the cover of Epic Space Marine 1st edition, which was set precisely during the Horus Heresy.

 

That picture was however also used as the cover of the novel Space Marine, a book about Imperial Fists.. so it could have been a case of "What should we put on the front cover?" "Well, this is pretty awesome?" (note the pic doesn't show who they are fighting, unlike the similar cover to Battle for Armageddon which appears to show Salamanders fighting red armoured marines instead of orks)

 

But I did look at the link above. It doesn't tell me if it is Horus Heresy or not, and if it is Horus Heresy, notice their armor marks are the wrong kind as well.

 

Under Space Marine 1st editions definition the Horus Heresy covered both the Isstvan to Terra period but also the Scouring as well - the rulebooks fluff specifically putting 'now' as being after Horus death - the subsequent & current armour fluff has Mk7 first seeing action during the Siege of Terra.

 

PS: Dark Angels were listed as green on the 1st Founding chart in Codex Imperialis