Sniper scouts - are they useful at all?

[Brother_Ovis]

This is not an attempt to start a flamewar, I'm asking it out of exasperation :lol: I'm playing Raven Guard army with captain Korvydae, which forces me to field at least one squad of scouts (which I'd do anyway because of fluff). I have a CC oriented squad with LSS, which is great, but sometimes the situation calls for something more shooty. At first I thought said snipers would do, but after fielding them several times I am sorely disappointed. Apart from being an excuse to field a ML or a HB, they are next to useless! I mean - there's 4 SR in a squad, which means that statistically no more than 2 shots will wound at all with no AP. In theory the 4+ wounding rule means that they could be useful against high T models, but such models usually have high Save stat, so they respond better to lascannons ^_^ I bought 15 of them sniper scouts without thinking it over first (I got a deal on them) and now I'm thinking about ditching them and getting some regular bolter-equipped ones. Bolters have shorter range, granted, but they at least pack a punch...

 

Help, brothers, some advice would be apprieciated - how to make the sniper scouts useful?

[DarkGuard]

Your experience and thinking seems very similar to my own. I've never had sniper Scouts consistently perform. 4 to hit, 4 to wound, most armies are MEQ so good armour saves, and rending is just relying on luck. In honesty I haven't used a 10 man squad as some people who have luck with them do, but that's because I only wanted a cheap objective scorer, at that points range I'd much rather take a Tactical squad with lascannon for backfield scoring. I remember starting a thread here asking if boltguns would be better for the reasons you described, but consensus was that the longer range of snipers would prove more useful in the long run, which isn't wrong. I've continued to use the snipers when I want to spend only a small number of points on a backfield objective holder.

 

I have found one unit that performs quite well though. Telion, 3 snipers and a missile launcher. 135pts, have Stealth so can hold objectives well, and Telion provides a substantial threat to upgrade models in squads, and his BS6 can be conferred to the missile launcher making them a threat against vehicles. Cheap, long-range, survivable, and has utility.

 

But in general I've never been impressed with sniper Scouts.

[MagicMan]

They're pretty good against some units.

 

Remember they can cause pinning tests with just one wound, which can be a god-send. Cause a wound on that small unit of Lootas lurking in the backfield shooting up your rhinos, or on that Guard Lascannon heavy weapon squad to stop them firing for a turn, and if you're lucky have them run off the board.

 

One game (pretty lucky i know) i kept my opponents squad of Lootas pinned for 4 turns out of six, not too shabby.

[Muctar]

I have to echo much of what DarkGuard has said. In terms of damage output they're not great, but have their uses with luck. Cheap scoring is their best trait since it frees up points for the rest of your army, which you can use to insert units with better damage output. I personally have a squad of 10 snipers, but don't use them often as I'd rather use my combat squaded tacticals' heavy weapons to hold objectives. The only thing I sometimes could miss out on is the 3+ cover saves, though I find those specific squads don't tend to need it as they are a part of my very aggressive army which poses more of a threat as a whole. However, with the right type of army I think snipers can do more for you.

 

I have found that 10 sniper have been useful a few times as a distraction in my opponent's backfield. For example, when an opponent deploys in a refused flank formation I set up opposite them but infiltrate my snipers off to the side in the opponent's deployment zone. A few times the enemy drew off a few units of his army to deal with them, which helped the core of my army since I had less to face on the other end of the table. The other times the snipers were ignored and because of that were able to make a few late-game moves and runs to capture or contest objectives to swing those games into my favor. Definitely something other units in my usual army could not do.

 

Overall sniper scouts aren't very good at doing damage, but can useful if used in conjunction with some guile and the right army.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The main reason I use my full Scout Sniper Squad on a fairly regular basis is that are, essentially, poisoned weapons. They provide a long-range threat to deal with things like Wraithlords, C'tan, and other monstrous creatures whose high Toughness makes knocking them down with bolters difficult. Normally, we can deal with these threats with our anti-tank weapons, but personally, I'd rather have my AT guns shooting at tanks. There's enough winged daemon princes flying around that I normally get pretty good results out of my Scouts. The one thing I don't like is that BS3. It gets really annoying.

[DarkGuard]

The one thing I don't like is that BS3. It gets really annoying.

 

This is what gets to me as well. Sniper targeters, 2pts each, +1BS when using the sniper rifle. Simple, quick and easy fix. Maybe 3pts. For me it's the drop in BS more than anything that made me start to shy away from them.

[voi shet magir]

A bs4 missile launcher that infiltrates for about a hundred points makes a bs4 missile launcher that doesn't infiltrate for 170 points seem a little terrible. Scouts have bs3 so that tactical squads look better.

 

Of course, an infiltrating missile launcher that starts at 85 points is great for spam, especially at high points levels where no amount of ablative models will save your squad.

 

Sniper rifles aren't special weapons, they are free. Tactical squad bolters aren't really useful without a missile or flamer, so "sniper scouts" aren't really a thing. They are missile squads.

[greatcrusade08]

agreed with the above, its the reason why you need more of them tbh, if your taking 5 with telion, then the extra 5 only costs 65 points and they benefit from stealth for free.. you cant get any other troops that cheap so IMO its a no brainer.

generally scout snipers should be used to target MCs, heavy infantry or light mech, with a squad of ten, the chances of getting a rend is pretty good (hopefully on telions shots) so if you kill a 40/50 point model or blow up a razorback, then they have done thier job for that turn, a couple more turns like that and they have made thier points back (if thats your thing.. truth is your paying for thier ability to score with a 2+ cover save, infiltrate and telions ability to pick of leaders.. and of course pinning)

[DarkGuard]

But yet that 65pts doesn't have to be spent on troops. That can get you a new Razorback turret, nearly two Rhinos, two Sternguard with upgrades, a multi-melta attack, nearly a MM/HF Speeder, and the most part of a dakka pred, Typhoon or TFC. It's not just other troops that people may look to use that 65pts on, there's a whole host of other units and models in the army list that could be taken. That's why for a unit like that I'd stick the 5 man squad in the list first, and if I have 65pts left over at the end then I'd stick the other 5 in, so long as I had everything else I needed.

[Ming]

Going back to the OP...

 

Get a 10-man scout squad, half consists of 4 sniper rifles and 1 ML.

 

The other half includes the sergeant with some form of CC ability, all with bolt pistols and CC weapons for the extra attack, to ride around in the landspeeder storm (LSS mentioned above). Meltabomb or combimelta optional.

 

The LSS storm of course should have a multi-melta.

 

Where the situation dictates, combat squad on turn 1, with half in the storm, the other half on foot where the ML can get a good fire lane, the storm itself should either accompany other lansdpeeders or bikes to your assault point / schwerepunkt. The transported scouts can do one of two things on disembarking - 1. Bubblewrap or protect the landspeeders from assault, or 2. assault the target / survivors of the landspeeder attack. The other half with the ML would claim objectives or provide overwatch / flank protection.

 

I'm finding where one speeder was fun, 2 or 4 are more fun, could not imagine how much fun 9 would be....

[MagicMan]

Unfortunately dude, you can't combat squad and have half of them start in the LSS.

[Brother_Ovis]

Unfortunately dude, you can't combat squad and have half of them start in the LSS.

 

Yes you can. You split the squad before deployment and the combat squads are "treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point". So they can very well start embarked onto the LSS.

[MagicMan]

Sorry, i meant to say you can't if you intend to use the LSS' outflank ability if you combat squad, and place half of the squad inside.

 

 

Which for me is its most appealing aspect. Since you cannot combat squad before deploying the unit, you cannot choose to embark a combat squad on an outflanking speeder.

[greatcrusade08]

im inclined to agree with magicman, its not that you cant combat squad into an LSS, its that you shouldnt in my humble opinion.

by doing so you essentially remove the ability to outflank, IMO thats worth the extra ten points for a seperate unit.

moreover, i highly recommend that if your taking snipers, you take Telion, a feat you couldnt manage if your combat squading to make the best from a LSS team

 

@Darkguard, your quite correct, i was just highlighting that 65 points is cheap for 5 models

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm with Ovis and Ming on this one, Magic Man. Combat Squadding takes place prior to deployment, which is also when you declare what's in Reserve. So if its all basically simultaneous. . . why couldn't you?

[greatcrusade08]

sorry i missed that bit.. you can indeed combat squad before deploying in the LSS, its just not wise IMO

although upon further reading, magicman was showing why you cant deploy a combat squad in an outflanking speeder, which he was correct about

[MagicMan]

I don't have a copy of the rulebook with me atm, but that's how i read it when i started using my LSS. I could be entirely wrong!

 

Please feel free to contradict me with an extract from the rulebook. Would certainly be useful to be able to combat squad and still outflank.

[Brother_Ovis]

Yes, I just checked that in the codex and in the BRB. Both decisions (reserves and combat squadding) are made simultaneously, during deployment, so the outflank option remains available.

 

Anyway - I do have CC scout squad & LSS combo, which I'm using quite succesfully as tank hunters (power fist and multi-melta), I'm just trying to decide what to do with snipers. Unfortunately I cannot take Telion, much to my dismay, as my gaming club has this stupid 'fluff first' rule which bans using special characters from one chapter with another and I can't convince them that I'm not taking the actual Telion character but just a bunch of stats for a sergeant upgrade... So anyway I'm stuck with the regular guys and while they're useful as the ablative wounds for a HB or ML, I hate to see them sitting idle like this, hence my inquiry. It's probably a matter of experience but every time I field them they do literally nothing (and not for a lack of trying on my part), just sitting there and dying eventually.

 

Right now I'm thinking about a mixed loadout, 2-3 snipers, as the pinning rule seems worth it, a heavy weapon and some bolters for close range punch.

[greatcrusade08]

I don't have a copy of the rulebook with me atm, but that's how i read it when i started using my LSS. I could be entirely wrong!

 

Please feel free to contradict me with an extract from the rulebook. Would certainly be useful to be able to combat squad and still outflank.

 

 

i did edit to include this, but its worth a new post for continuity.

if a squad wants to outflank it can do so, if at the time of ourflanking it wants to combat squad it can do so, the two seperate squads are combat squadded at the time of actual deployment.. which means that youd only need to roll the one dice for both 'halves'.

however if you want a squad to outflank 'with' a transport, they would have to be deployed in it at the time it is put into reserve..

since you cant put ten men into a LSS this cannot happen.

 

you couldnt for instance deploy half a combat squad and reserve the other half, brother Ovis is incorrect in his assessment

Rules linky

[Brother_Ovis]

Now I'm a little confused.

 

Socuts have 'infiltrate', which means they are deployed AFTER the LSS. So:

 

- if I move them to reserves together with LSS, do I have to roll for them separately, or can they 'embark' while waiting in reserves? That's a little unclear to me now.

 

- if I don't move them to reserves, can they deploy INSIDE a waiting LSS on the table, or do they have to use their 'scouts' extra move to embark?

[greatcrusade08]

i think your getting very confused about the rules.

 

if you want to embark scouts onto a land speeder storm with regular deployment/infiltrate you can do so with no restrictions.

 

if you wanted to outflank any units you declare them at the time of regular deployment, if you want to reserve a scout squad "in" a LSS you simply declare it.

however the sticking point comes with combat squadding. you dont combat squad until the unit is actually deployed (placed on the table).

if you want to reserve them they must do so as a full ten man unit, hence cannot board a LSS.

you cannot combat squad a unit, place one half on the board and the other in reserve

[Brother_Ovis]

if you want to embark scouts onto a land speeder storm with regular deployment/infiltrate you can do so with no restrictions.

 

 

Sorry, I edited the post you're replying to before seeing your answer. Please look above your post.

[greatcrusade08]

Now I'm a little confused.

 

Socuts have 'infiltrate', which means they are deployed AFTER the LSS. So:

 

- if I move them to reserves together with LSS, do I have to roll for them separately, or can they 'embark' while waiting in reserves? That's a little unclear to me now.

all reserves are declared during the deployment 'phase'.. if you have a 5 man squad of scouts you can declare them as outflanking/reserves inside the LSS

 

- if I don't move them to reserves, can they deploy INSIDE a waiting LSS on the table, or do they have to use their 'scouts' extra move to embark?

they can deploy inside the LSS already on the table

[Brother_Ovis]

Thanks, Master Greatcrusade :tu: It's all so much clearer now :)

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks, Master Greatcrusade :tu: It's all so much clearer now :)

 

no worries, it can be a big jumble of rules to begin with, makes more sense after a while of running them.

if you come across any scout related issues, ill be happy to answer them for you