The Dark Pantheon Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I have a question for all the Blood Angels experts on this forum regarding the Flaw. I am currently writing an IA article for my DIY Chapter, but I'm having trouble deciding on which Founding they were created in and the particular reason for their creation. Unless I'm mistaken, Sanguinius's gene-seed has fallen out of the High Lords' favour for use in new Foundings. I believe this was in the current codex, though if not it would be safe to surmise out of common sense that the Flaw would make the High Lords extremely reluctant to authorise a new Blood Angels successor. My question is, when, roughly, did the Imperium, or at least the Adeptus Terra, become aware the curse of Sanguinius? More specifically, when was the point that wispered rumours became concrete knowledge? Having the genesis of my Chapter in Second Founding would be an easy solution, if it were not off-limits to DIYers and, in my humble opinion, quite a lazy and unimaginative way to solve the issue in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Pantheon Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 After a bit of specualtion, I might just have answered my own question! I'd think that by the Third Founding, the Adeptus Terra would probably know about the details of Flaw, but I'll change the subject of this discussion: It could likely be that by the Third Founding and for quite a while after, whilst Imperium's adepts, and perhaps even the Blood Angels themselves to some extent, were well aware of the Flaw's qualities, they still greatly underestimated its dangerous potential. To the High Lords of Terra, the issues of Sanguinius's gene-seed were insignificant in comparison to the need more Astartes Chapters. Accordingly, a relatively large number of Blood Angels successors were created compared to later Foundings. Would this interpretation be a good, or at least plausible interpretation? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I don't see how the High Lords have to know about the flaw. I always looked at it with the "Smurfs" just being more favorable, due to the submissive nature of the UM when it comes to dealling with Terra and other Imperial Authorities. So I read that line in the codex about the Blood Angles being out of favor more like "just nots as infavor as the UM". So it isn't blatantly stating that the High Lords know, more that they just don't want to make more Marines that don't play well with others, like the Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, and Angles Sanguine. FT are wreckless killing machines that don't care who they kill, Lamenters and Asngles Sang just don't like to work with others and when sharing a battlespace just don't listen to cooperative battle plans well. These kind of things would drive a battlefield commander crazy, also take into count that with the Blood Knights being declared renegade also is a blemish on the leniage of BA chapters. But they still do make a chapter every now and then when the techpriest and what not believe they have "cured" the geneseed so there are opennings to go even further back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I think that you overestimate the impact the Flaw has on the BA lineage as a whole. Yes, there are chapters in which the Flaw has gone completely out of control in one way or other - but there are others in which it is just a kind of characteristic that doesn't at all make them any worse as a fighting force nor more likely to be corrupted and turn traitor. More specifically, one chapter has been 'fatally undone' by the Flaw - the Flesh Eaters - and another is on the brink of annihilation (after 10 millenia!) - the Flesh Tearers. One chapter has turned traitor. Now while the BA undoubtedly have fewer successors than the UM, the number of UM successors that have turned traitor is certainly higher. Likewise, the Blood Angels themselves suffer from the Flaw a lot less than it may seem. You can take 30 DC in your army, and most BA players do use DC, but if there were even 5 marines per battle to succumb to the Flaw, the Blood Angels would have ceased to exist early in M32 at the latest. In most battles and campaigns, there will be absolutely no victims of the Flaw. If I recall it correctly, it is only before massive, decisive battles that there happen to actually be DC marines. So the Flaw isn't really that dramatic, it has just been exaggerated in the most recent codex - like everything is being exaggerated in the current edition. So I wouldn't say the High Lords would refrain from using BA geneseed just because of some minor matter like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Do the tech priests working with the gene seed have a better idea that something might be wrong? It seems that if there are attempts to "fix" it there must be some awareness of a problem beyond some successors having a bad reputation, even if that awareness is very limited. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Knights of Blood haven't "turned traitor", they have been excommunicated and made renegade because of their reckless and homicidal tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Well, they seem to have tried to fix the Flaw with the Lamenters, which would suggest they were aware by the Twenty-First Founding. I'd suspect a fairly level usage rate for the first few foundings, dropping off as rumours start. Anything up to about tenth founding would seem perfectly reasonable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3049800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pandion40 Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Thing is the Blood angels Gene seed has a number of advantages compared to the more typical UM geneseed. Very long lives and a Very low rejection rate being 2 of them. I think the advantages would tempt the organisers of the various foundings enough that the gene seed would stay in low level use right up to present day. Also the impression I have is that it's use has become rare not that they have stopped creating new BA successors totaly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Thing is the Blood angels Gene seed has a number of advantages compared to the more typical UM geneseed. Very long lives and a Very low rejection rate being 2 of them. I think the advantages would tempt the organisers of the various foundings enough that the gene seed would stay in low level use right up to present day. Also the impression I have is that it's use has become rare not that they have stopped creating new BA successors totaly. Not to mention it takes only 1 year as opposed to teh conventional 3 to turn an aspirant into a marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 emperors immortal and Octavulg have the crux of it. The Lammenters were created during the experiments of the cursed founding in an attempt to fix known flaws in the "otherwise superior" Blood Angels geneseed. (source: IA:Cursed Founding) Given this we can assume that at least some adepts specialising in Space Marine geneseed know about the flaw. However, that doesn't mean the knowledge is widespread. Space Marine foundings can only be sanctioned by the High Lords themselves, and given the rarity, importance and sensitivity of such a project you're going to have to be pretty damn good to be allowed to work on it. There's also the fact that foundings using many different genseeds have been conducted down the years. One would imagine that as Guilliman's geneseed is so favoured, there must be a supply issue, otherwise all new foundings would use it. Indeed, the High Lords may well deem that the trade off of using Sanguinius's geneseed is worth it for a particular founding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Pantheon Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Some very good points raised, I'll have to look into what information is available on the circumstances of the Foundings. I also remembered today a quote which I had read a while ago in the 5th ed. Space Marine codex, and found it on page 5: Blood Angels and their successors follow unconventional and deviant gene-replication practices which had led to the debasement of their gene-seed. Rumours of the 'Red Thirst' and 'Black Rage' still abound where the Blood Angels are concerned, despite investigation on numerous occasions. Inquisitor Damne (M.34) This confirms that there were certainly rumours in M.34, but investigation didn't reveal any concrete facts, possibly due to the BA and successors actively hiding evidence from the Inquisition, or simply not aiding them in their investigation. As Octavulg pointed out, any founding up to the Tenth Founding would be perfectly reasonable to found a BA successor in. A quick look at Lexicanum tells me that the 8th Founding was in M34. I would assume that further investigations would take place after M.34, and the Inquisition would probably have found proof by the Tenth Founding at least 1000 years later or even the earlier Ninth Founding. As discussed, usage of Sanguinius's gene-seed would continue even after then, even if with caution, if the High Lords considered it a minor issue compared to the aforementioned benefits of long lifespans, a low rejection rate and a shorter 'pupal stage' in their metamorphisis into a full Astartes; an increased production rate, if that's the right way to describe it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Who is to say that The Flaw is widely known? A chapter after all is only a thousand men, in a universe of untold billions. Being able to name the BAs or any other chapter, would be like being able to name the Spec Ops team of Uzbekistan - some would have heard of it, fewer have any actual knowledge, and even less would give a damn, since the BA like any other jarheads are expendable assets :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Who is to say that The Flaw is widely known? A chapter after all is only a thousand men, in a universe of untold billions. Being able to name the BAs or any other chapter, would be like being able to name the Spec Ops team of Uzbekistan - some would have heard of it, fewer have any actual knowledge, and even less would give a damn, since the BA like any other jarheads are expendable assets Not necessarily. The Imperium is a place of legends. The Emperor and all his works were glorified on every world in the Imperium, and fewer of those works are more famous and lauded than the Space Marines. This Chapter is one of the originals, a First Founding Chapter, so it has literally been around since the birth of the Imperium, an honor roll stretching back ten thousand years. These guys have had stories told about them from one end of the galaxy to another. THere's a better chance of them knowing the Blood Angels before recognizing say, Dark Hunters or Doom Eagles. I'm not saying everyone in the Imperium knows them, but I bet it'd be less like knowing the Uzbekistanian Spec Ops and more like knowing the individual names of a country's team for the Olympics. Everyone in the Imperium knows the Space Marines, just like everyone on Earth knows the Olympics, and if an Imperial citizen were of the mind to do even a bit of research into Space Marines in the heavily-edited and propaganda-laden data stacks of the Imperial public archives, chances are they'll hear of the name Blood Angels. Just my take. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3050993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Any citizen who is aware of anything more than their own trible/country/planet will know of the Blood Angels. Sanguinius is unique amongst the Primarchs in that there is an Imperium-wide official celebration in his name - the Sanguinala (IIRC) which celebrates his stand against Horus. That being said - actually knowing anything about the Black Rage? - Maybe the odd planetary Governor might know, possibly some High-level IG officers (almost certainly above what gets represented in a normal 40k game) might suspect something if they happen to have served alongside/in the same theatre but would be incredibly unlikely to actually know anything concrete. Not even every Inquisitor or fellow Marine Chapter Master would know as a matter of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3051735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Few people will ever meet a space marine. Fewer still will ever stand and fight shoulder to shoulder with a space marine? I can imagine many survive a battle near A DEATH COMPANY space marine Of those fewer fewer few, how many will know that the black armoured space marines are the same as the red armoured space marines, but different from the blue armoured? Even if one was found with all that experience How many would know it for what it was? Presumably some none BA marines crack after 500 years of warfare? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251532-the-flaw-and-the-wider-imperiums-awareness-of-it/#findComment-3054789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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