The Sanguinor

[Deschenus Maximus]

Darth. The Sanguinor being a beatstick against enemy HQs is fine, but for 275 pts, he needs to be something else beyond that and a +1A provider.

[Drunken Angel]

"Sure he may die too easily if not used correctly but for the most part if you're smart he will do a great job. "

 

The problem is that his job is one that is not really needed.

 

I dont think there is any problem at all, the original poster was asking are there any good reasons to take him, there are and they got listed. You think his advantages (job) is not really needed and thats a problem please go ahead and describe why he is not needed. I want to hear we all may learn something :D

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Drunken Angel:

 

Here are the two main reasons why you don't need anti-rock Sanguinor :

1) If your opponent does not use badass HQs (like many/most people do), Sanguinor is total overkill and thus cost-innefficient. You really don't need him to kill a 2 wound, no invul save, I4 Space Marine Librarian, for example.

2) There are more effective ways to deal with rock HQs than sending in your own beatstick. Delaying through blocking and bubblewrapping, tarpitting, mobility-killing (i.e. blow up their transports), and focus-firing them down are chief among them.

[Leksington]

I think he's priced just right.

 

2+ save, 3+ invulnerable save, eternal warrior! At BS 4, it would take an average of 16.2 Lascannon, melta, or plasma shots to kill him (maybe you want to keep him away from plasma :D ). Imagine how many points those 16 high strength shots would destroy if fired elsewhere! He has just enough teeth to earn back most of his points, plus his aura (and it's synergy with our assault oriented forces), plus his buff to a sergeant, and ability to force an enemy HQ unit to stay away from him.

 

He needed to be expensive enough that he isn't an automatic choice for a DoA list. I think the Sanguinor is a perfect example of GW getting it right.

[DarthOvious]

Darth. The Sanguinor being a beatstick against enemy HQs is fine, but for 275 pts, he needs to be something else beyond that and a +1A provider.

 

its just that I know that he isn't a choice for you especially with the type of strategy you use in your games i.e. Mech list. However his main function works well with DOA.

[DarthOvious]

Here are the two main reasons why you don't need anti-rock Sanguinor :

1) If your opponent does not use badass HQs (like many/most people do), Sanguinor is total overkill and thus cost-innefficient. You really don't need him to kill a 2 wound, no invul save, I4 Space Marine Librarian, for example.

 

The Sanguinor can still do other things though. OK, so your re-rolls are going onto a standard Libby, but you are still giving that extra attack to every squad within 6". Just think of the potential. Now your death company are charging with 5 attacks each instead of 4 or perhaps a unit of sanguinary guard who also have a banner are now striking with 5 attacks each. Not to mention its not like The Sanguinor is unable to kill other things off the table either.

 

As pointed out by leks, it takes on average a lot of firwpower to bring him down. Like I said, he can stand toe to toe with Mephy in combat. Ran the numbers myself and playtested it. The fact that Mephy is wounding The Sanguinor on 2s and yet The Sanguinor can still take him down half the time is unbelieveable.

 

Don't forget his stats either. He is WS8, has a high init and is also STRENGTH 6 on the charge. Not many marines are able to hit on S6. In fact most marines can't even hit S5 while hitting in init order. He has 5 attacks base, 6 if charging, with a master crafted power weapon and he even has a 3+ invulonerable save. He makes Vulcan look like a big girls blouse, although I understand that Vulcan confers other abilities onto his army through Chapter Tactics.

 

2) There are more effective ways to deal with rock HQs than sending in your own beatstick. Delaying through blocking and bubblewrapping, tarpitting, mobility-killing (i.e. blow up their transports), and focus-firing them down are chief among them.

 

I think your whole mindset on the game seems to be hit & run, hit & run, hit & run.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Leksington:

 

His survivability is not that impressive when you compare it to other infantry units. For example, it also take about 16 BS 4 las/plas/melta shots to kill a 10 man assault squad... in the open. Double that as soon as they have cover, which isn't hard to do. His survivability to small arms is also comparable to the survivabilty of 6 assault marines... not that impressive when you put it in that context, don't you think?

 

His aura needs to touch at least 3 full squads of ASM just to beat by a slight margin the extra number of hits you would get by spending the points on a jump libby with Rage and more assault marines. That in itself is going to be a pain (30 marines do take up a lot of room), but is also discounting the benefit of you know... more guys to take hits, capture/contest objectives, and blow up tanks.

 

The buff to the sergeant I would care more about if I could select who gets the blessing. Yay! Baddass Devastator Squad sergeant!

[Deschenus Maximus]

Here are the two main reasons why you don't need anti-rock Sanguinor :

1) If your opponent does not use badass HQs (like many/most people do), Sanguinor is total overkill and thus cost-innefficient. You really don't need him to kill a 2 wound, no invul save, I4 Space Marine Librarian, for example.

 

The Sanguinor can still do other things though. OK, so your re-rolls are going onto a standard Libby, but you are still giving that extra attack to every squad within 6". Just think of the potential. Now your death company are charging with 5 attacks each instead of 4 or perhaps a unit of sanguinary guard who also have a banner are now striking with 5 attacks each. Not to mention its not like The Sanguinor is unable to kill other things off the table either.

 

As pointed out by leks, it takes on average a lot of firwpower to bring him down. Like I said, he can stand toe to toe with Mephy in combat. Ran the numbers myself and playtested it. The fact that Mephy is wounding The Sanguinor on 2s and yet The Sanguinor can still take him down half the time is unbelieveable.

 

Don't forget his stats either. He is WS8, has a high init and is also STRENGTH 6 on the charge. Not many marines are able to hit on S6. In fact most marines can't even hit S5 while hitting in init order. He has 5 attacks base, 6 if charging, with a master crafted power weapon and he even has a 3+ invulonerable save. He makes Vulcan look like a big girls blouse, although I understand that Vulcan confers other abilities onto his army through Chapter Tactics.

 

I answered most of those points in my reply to Leksington, just above. The point about Sang vs vulkan you answered yourself.

 

2) There are more effective ways to deal with rock HQs than sending in your own beatstick. Delaying through blocking and bubblewrapping, tarpitting, mobility-killing (i.e. blow up their transports), and focus-firing them down are chief among them.

 

I think your whole mindset on the game seems to be hit & run, hit & run, hit & run.

 

No, but I don't mind hit and running when it is appropriate to do so. Just another tactics set to use.

[DarthOvious]

@Leksington:

 

His survivability is not that impressive when you compare it to other infantry units. For example, it also take about 16 BS 4 las/plas/melta shots to kill a 10 man assault squad... in the open. Double that as soon as they have cover, which isn't hard to do. His survivability to small arms is also comparable to the survivabilty of 6 assault marines... not that impressive when you put it in that context, don't you think?

 

And those ten assault marines will cost you over 200pts, can also be killed outright by AP3 shots, such as Dark Reapers and are not fearless and so need to take leadership tests. Battle Cannons have a field day with power armour marines. Given that context it looks a lot more drab now for your argument. Not to mention those Assault marine won't be hitting as hard in combat.

 

 

His aura needs to touch at least 3 full squads of ASM just to beat by a slight margin the extra number of hits you would get by spending the points on a jump libby with Rage and more assault marines. That in itself is going to be a pain (30 marines do take up a lot of room), but is also discounting the benefit of you know... more guys to take hits, capture/contest objectives, and blow up tanks.

 

What numbers are you running here? That Libby of yours ain't getting no invulnerable save in combat either. A Libby goes down rather easily in close combat to a Sargent with a powerfist.

 

The buff to the sergeant I would care more about if I could select who gets the blessing. Yay! Baddass Devastator Squad sergeant!

 

Sure it would be better, but if you're playing a DOA army then I don't think it matters really. Chances are it will be an assault marine squad sarg who gets it which is fine with me.

[Leksington]

His aura needs to touch at least 3 full squads of ASM just to beat by a slight margin the extra number of hits you would get by spending the points on a jump libby with Rage and more assault marines. That in itself is going to be a pain (30 marines do take up a lot of room), but is also discounting the benefit of you know... more guys to take hits, capture/contest objectives, and blow up tanks.

The librarian's powers are not automatic, and you are assuming that your opponent has 0 psychic defenses. The librarian is also easier to kill once you get him in combat, so the Sanguinor's aura is likely to last for more of the game.

 

The buff to the sergeant I would care more about if I could select who gets the blessing. Yay! Baddass Devastator Squad sergeant!

1) It is not like Devs are even close to automatic for a DoA list.

2) It would only be like 1/6 that your Devs get the blessing.

3) Even if you are unlucky enough to have your Devs get the blessing, you can use the extra wound on the sergeant for wound allocation shenanigans.

 

His survivability to small arms is also comparable to the survivabilty of 6 assault marines... not that impressive when you put it in that context, don't you think?

Get Sangiunor a FNP bubble and it will take an average of 108 Bolt gun shots to take him down. Still impressive.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Leksington:

 

His survivability is not that impressive when you compare it to other infantry units. For example, it also take about 16 BS 4 las/plas/melta shots to kill a 10 man assault squad... in the open. Double that as soon as they have cover, which isn't hard to do. His survivability to small arms is also comparable to the survivabilty of 6 assault marines... not that impressive when you put it in that context, don't you think?

 

And those ten assault marines will cost you over 200pts, can also be killed outright by AP3 shots, such as Dark Reapers and are not fearless and so need to take leadership tests. Battle Cannons have a field day with power armour marines. Given that context it looks a lot more drab now for your argument. Not to mention those Assault marine won't be hitting as hard in combat.

 

I was strictly comparing survivability in that bit, not combat power or leadership, etc.

 

Battle cannons and dark reapers (who the hell fields those, anyhow?) are scarier to the ASM, but mass small-arms/cc attacks are scarier to Sanguinor. Which of these two sets of threats is more prevalent?

 

His aura needs to touch at least 3 full squads of ASM just to beat by a slight margin the extra number of hits you would get by spending the points on a jump libby with Rage and more assault marines. That in itself is going to be a pain (30 marines do take up a lot of room), but is also discounting the benefit of you know... more guys to take hits, capture/contest objectives, and blow up tanks.

 

What numbers are you running here? That Libby of yours ain't getting no invulnerable save in combat either. A Libby goes down rather easily in close combat to a Sargent with a powerfist.

 

Numbers are the hits generated by 27 normal attack and 3 fist attacks generated by the Sanguinor's bubble on 3 x 10 ASM with fist and double metla versus hits generated by the rerolls granted by Rage on a 10 man ASM with fist and double melta plus the hits of 7 man ASM squad with melta (i.e. comparison between 275 pts Sang vs 271 pts of Libby + ASM). And just to be nice, I calculated that with both the sets of situations receiving the charge instead of giving it.

 

Again, not comparing the combat power of the librarian vs Sanguinor themselved, as that is not what I was addressing in this example; just the amount of extra hits.

 

The buff to the sergeant I would care more about if I could select who gets the blessing. Yay! Baddass Devastator Squad sergeant!

 

Sure it would be better, but if you're playing a DOA army then I don't think it matters really. Chances are it will be an assault marine squad sarg who gets it which is fine with me.

 

Fair enough, but the boost is still a pretty marginal bonus in the grand scheme of things.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The librarian's powers are not automatic, and you are assuming that your opponent has 0 psychic defenses.

 

Not automatic, but with Ld 10, pretty reliable. Even if the opponent has psychic defence, unless it's Wolves, Nids or Eldar, the probabilties of the power going off are still in your camp. Even with Wolves it's still 50/50 unless Njal is involved.

 

The librarian is also easier to kill once you get him in combat, so the Sanguinor's aura is likely to last for more of the game.

 

The Sanguinor can't hide in squads, so while the libby is more vulnerable in combat, it is far easier to avoid having him touching a power fist or the like than it is for the Sanguinor to avoid getting shot off the board.

 

1) It is not like Devs are even close to automatic for a DoA list.

 

For pure DoA, probably not. That said, I don't think pure DoA is all that great to being with, so make of that what you will.

 

2) It would only be like 1/6 that your Devs get the blessing.

3) Even if you are unlucky enough to have your Devs get the blessing, you can use the extra wound on the sergeant for wound allocation shenanigans.

 

I would be pretty dissapointed if all I get from my blessing is the chance to maybe play wound allocation games. And if he can at all, my opponent would simply prioritise shooting my 2 other dev squads first in order to further minimise the impact of the blessing.

 

Get Sangiunor a FNP bubble and it will take an average of 108 Bolt gun shots to take him down. Still impressive.

 

Same thing with the 6 ASM, so they are still tied in that respect.

[spartan II]

@Leksington:

 

His survivability is not that impressive when you compare it to other infantry units. For example, it also take about 16 BS 4 las/plas/melta shots to kill a 10 man assault squad... in the open. Double that as soon as they have cover, which isn't hard to do. His survivability to small arms is also comparable to the survivabilty of 6 assault marines... not that impressive when you put it in that context, don't you think?

 

And those ten assault marines will cost you over 200pts, can also be killed outright by AP3 shots, such as Dark Reapers and are not fearless and so need to take leadership tests. Battle Cannons have a field day with power armour marines. Given that context it looks a lot more drab now for your argument. Not to mention those Assault marine won't be hitting as hard in combat.

 

I was strictly comparing survivability in that bit, not combat power or leadership, etc.

 

Battle cannons and dark reapers (who the hell fields those, anyhow?) are scarier to the ASM, but mass small-arms/cc attacks are scarier to Sanguinor. Which of these two sets of threats is more prevalent?

 

i dont wanna dick around but has nobody come up with the idea that 1 model would be way easier to hide then 30 marines so getting him at least a cover safe at most no line of sight parking a rhino or something in front of it

 

His aura needs to touch at least 3 full squads of ASM just to beat by a slight margin the extra number of hits you would get by spending the points on a jump libby with Rage and more assault marines. That in itself is going to be a pain (30 marines do take up a lot of room), but is also discounting the benefit of you know... more guys to take hits, capture/contest objectives, and blow up tanks.

 

What numbers are you running here? That Libby of yours ain't getting no invulnerable save in combat either. A Libby goes down rather easily in close combat to a Sargent with a powerfist.

 

Numbers are the hits generated by 27 normal attack and 3 fist attacks generated by the Sanguinor's bubble on 3 x 10 ASM with fist and double metla versus hits generated by the rerolls granted by Rage on a 10 man ASM with fist and double melta plus the hits of 7 man ASM squad with melta (i.e. comparison between 275 pts Sang vs 271 pts of Libby + ASM). And just to be nice, I calculated that with both the sets of situations receiving the charge instead of giving it.

 

Again, not comparing the combat power of the librarian vs Sanguinor themselved, as that is not what I was addressing in this example; just the amount of extra hits.

 

eeuuhm also youre paying for being sure youre power works you know psychic hoods and stuff do exist

 

The buff to the sergeant I would care more about if I could select who gets the blessing. Yay! Baddass Devastator Squad sergeant!

 

Sure it would be better, but if you're playing a DOA army then I don't think it matters really. Chances are it will be an assault marine squad sarg who gets it which is fine with me.

 

Fair enough, but the boost is still a pretty marginal bonus in the grand scheme of things.

 

sorry but if you use the sanguinor ho would be idot enough to put in devs when there role can be performed by attack bikes which do not have a sarge then if you equip youre sarges the same what most people do anyway you have chosen which one becomes tha cptn and you just have to deploy according to it i dont see ho you could miss this

[the jeske]

Battle cannons and dark reapers (who the hell fields those, anyhow?) are scarier to the ASM, but mass small-arms/cc attacks are scarier to Sanguinor. Which of these two sets of threats is more prevalent?

+ a RAS can do stuff about it . spreading for plates or cover +4 we get in 5th helps . Sang cant do a thing about being focused fired [and it would take some realy impresive bubble wraping to get 3 RAS units down at the same time as sang with sang out of LoS but still in range of 3 units by the way]. He is not viable because there is too many good armies that can do just that . GK will kill him with psycannons and rifleman [and will strike before him with higher I on some models and his buff doesnt help RAS when they die before being able to use it] . Same with IG or SW . [and IG is an army that can actualy pull off 16las class shots per turn , if they play a slogger build].

 

as to him being awesome because he buffs DC or sang guard . when do you need an extra A for those . against what kind of units ? sang is a kill more units . and the fact that he buffs only DoA doesnt help him much too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Imagine how many points those 16 high strength shots would destroy if fired elsewhere!

a single unit of melta vets and/or drive by shoting from a vendatta ? besides he doesnt have to get killed by shoting against , what do you charge/how do you use him if you lose 2 wounds from him . and it is not realy hard considering the number of small weapon shots he can be targeted in most armies.

[Leksington]

The librarian's powers are not automatic, and you are assuming that your opponent has 0 psychic defenses.

 

Not automatic, but with Ld 10, pretty reliable. Even if the opponent has psychic defence, unless it's Wolves, Nids or Eldar, the probabilties of the power going off are still in your camp. Even with Wolves it's still 50/50 unless Njal is involved.

 

The librarian is also easier to kill once you get him in combat, so the Sanguinor's aura is likely to last for more of the game.

 

The Sanguinor can't hide in squads, so while the libby is more vulnerable in combat, it is far easier to avoid having him touching a power fist or the like than it is for the Sanguinor to avoid getting shot off the board.

 

1) It is not like Devs are even close to automatic for a DoA list.

 

For pure DoA, probably not. That said, I don't think pure DoA is all that great to being with, so make of that what you will.

 

2) It would only be like 1/6 that your Devs get the blessing.

3) Even if you are unlucky enough to have your Devs get the blessing, you can use the extra wound on the sergeant for wound allocation shenanigans.

 

I would be pretty dissapointed if all I get from my blessing is the chance to maybe play wound allocation games. And if he can at all, my opponent would simply prioritise shooting my 2 other dev squads first in order to further minimise the impact of the blessing.

 

Get Sangiunor a FNP bubble and it will take an average of 108 Bolt gun shots to take him down. Still impressive.

 

Same thing with the 6 ASM, so they are still tied in that respect.

Nothing in here convinces me that Sanguinor isn't priced appropriately.

 

Not your tenuous assurances that your opponents psychic defenses will reliably fail, not your belief that Sanguinor is easy to shoot down despite the math saying otherwise, not your dislike of DoA lists, and not your stubborn insistance on bringing Devs to a DoA list.

[Leksington]

Battle cannons and dark reapers (who the hell fields those, anyhow?) are scarier to the ASM, but mass small-arms/cc attacks are scarier to Sanguinor. Which of these two sets of threats is more prevalent?

+ a RAS can do stuff about it . spreading for plates or cover +4 we get in 5th helps . Sang cant do a thing about being focused fired [and it would take some realy impresive bubble wraping to get 3 RAS units down at the same time as sang with sang out of LoS but still in range of 3 units by the way]. He is not viable because there is too many good armies that can do just that . GK will kill him with psycannons and rifleman [and will strike before him with higher I on some models and his buff doesnt help RAS when they die before being able to use it] . Same with IG or SW . [and IG is an army that can actualy pull off 16las class shots per turn , if they play a slogger build].

 

as to him being awesome because he buffs DC or sang guard . when do you need an extra A for those . against what kind of units ? sang is a kill more units . and the fact that he buffs only DoA doesnt help him much too.

 

 

Imagine how many points those 16 high strength shots would destroy if fired elsewhere!

a single unit of melta vets and/or drive by shoting from a vendatta ? besides he doesnt have to get killed by shoting against , what do you charge/how do you use him if you lose 2 wounds from him . and it is not realy hard considering the number of small weapon shots he can be targeted in most armies.

The way you tell the tale, you wouldn't take him if he was 200 points. ;)

[Deschenus Maximus]

sorry but if you use the sanguinor ho would be idot enough to put in devs when there role can be performed by attack bikes which do not have a sarge then if you equip youre sarges the same what most people do anyway you have chosen which one becomes tha cptn and you just have to deploy according to it i dont see ho you could miss this

 

Attack bikes don't fill the same role as Devs. They complement - not replace - each other.

 

Nothing in here convinces me that Sanguinor isn't priced appropriately.

 

Not your tenuous assurances that your opponents psychic defenses will reliably fail, not your belief that Sanguinor is easy to shoot down despite the math saying otherwise, not your dislike of DoA lists, and not your stubborn insistance on bringing Devs to a DoA list.

 

*shrugs* suit yourself dude.

[Morticon]

People in this thread are going to have to chillax a tad. Its getting a bit personal.

Calm it down, please.

:tu:

[The Holy Heretic]

I'm definitely getting my interest piqued by the pro Sanguinor crowd.

 

Enough to field him, I don't know, so I'm gonna rant a bit, and hopefully someone will find some meaning in my unintelligible gibberish - or point out my errors..

 

More often than not, I find killy HQs to 'lose out' in offensive power compared to lowlier 'troops'. Troops bring more attacks, firepower and resilience for the points spent - not to mention scoring units - simple as that. So an HQ needs to bring a little more.

 

Currently the best HQ choice in my book is the Reclusiarch, he buffs his units, is fairly resilient, comes with a built in power weapon, and unlike the librarian his abilities will never be shut down - and I'm honestly not that concerned with psychic defense, as plenty of armies lives without it. The jump reclusiarch allows me to get by with 'only' spending 155-160 on HQs and leaving the rest to be spent on 'the good stuff'.

 

So I've got to justify spending an extra 120 points on the HQ section, for which I get a souped up sergeant - nice, but 120 points gives me almost 5 fists or 8 Infernus/melta upgrades and to make the most of the sergeant, he needs to be upgraded with a 25 pt. fist (though this is mandatory anyway), and when push comes to shove, its only 1 extra attack, not even remotely an extra wound caused.

 

I also get a +1 attack bubble - although a 'fragile' one, as the sanguinor can't hide that well - but is it needed? The units that benefit the most from these are the 'elite' units DC/sanguinary guards/assault termies, as they've got a fair amount of special weaponry (10 ordinairy CC attacks vs MEQ only result in 0,825 wounds after all). But the elite either lack mobility or numbers to gain a lot from this bonus, and will gain more from added numbers to add both resilience and offensive power. Then there is the competing priest buff bubbles, where FC has a higher return on investment, since the squad benefits from higher wound count and less return attacks, and not only this the priest bubbles add FNP to the mix for added resilience to aid both vs. shooting and CC attacks, and the priest can hide out in units thanks to being ICs - and I get almost 2 jump priests at the price of the Sanguinor.

 

Then we have the "My dad can beat up your dad" HQ kill ability. Its nice for when you meet the big BAMF SC HQs, but it won't kill any tanks, and it will be overkill vs. most HQs. Not to mention the 8 melta/infernus pistols, I could get for 120 pts, should be able to kill both tanks, paladins, Mephy and other annoying HQs.

 

Rant over :P

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Heretic: yup.

[Morollan]

Then we have the "My dad can beat up your dad" HQ kill ability. Its nice for when you meet the big BAMF SC HQs, but it won't kill any tanks, and it will be overkill vs. most HQs. Not to mention the 8 melta/infernus pistols, I could get for 120 pts, should be able to kill both tanks, paladins, Mephy and other annoying HQs.

 

Yes there are other things that you can spend the extra points on and they may or may not be useful in certain circumstances. Certainly the extra melta shots can be very handy but then again they are of precisely zero use if the wielder is tied up in combat with a nasty enemy SC. They are also spread across the entire army so may or may not actually see any use. It's swings and roundabouts really. Sanguinor is very good at certain things (HQ killing, buffing) and rubbish at other things (tank hunting). It all comes down to how you want to use him, what type of army you play etc.

[DarthOvious]

I was strictly comparing survivability in that bit, not combat power or leadership, etc.

 

His combat abilities are included in his cost though. Unit cost is not just based on their survivability alone.

 

Battle cannons and dark reapers (who the hell fields those, anyhow?) are scarier to the ASM, but mass small-arms/cc attacks are scarier to Sanguinor. Which of these two sets of threats is more prevalent?

 

Well IG field Battle Cannons and every Eldar player I've played against has Dark Reapers and they USE THEM, especially when they know they're playing marines. There are still plenty of other AP3 shots though and that was my main point. Also throw in rending assault cannons to the mix or any rending attack for that matter and those assault marines are still dying outright. In the case of rending they don't even get a feel no pain save

 

Numbers are the hits generated by 27 normal attack and 3 fist attacks generated by the Sanguinor's bubble on 3 x 10 ASM with fist and double metla versus hits generated by the rerolls granted by Rage on a 10 man ASM with fist and double melta plus the hits of 7 man ASM squad with melta (i.e. comparison between 275 pts Sang vs 271 pts of Libby + ASM). And just to be nice, I calculated that with both the sets of situations receiving the charge instead of giving it.

 

First, I will say that other units can get those extra attacks also. So you're using the basic assault marines here in your calcs for this. You are also only counting one round of combat. This ability not only confers to subsequent rounds but also in your OPPONENTS assault phase, which makes it a hell of a lot more useful. Lets run the numbers shall we. Against a toughness 4, ws 4, 3+ arm sv squad.

 

In your example:

 

27 standard attack -> 13.5 hits (50%) -> 6.75 wounds (50%) -> 2.25 failed armour saves (33%)

 

3 powerfist attacks -> 1.5 hits (50%) -> 1.25 wounds (83%) -> 1.25 wounds, no armour saves (0%)

 

So for the 3 squads that you posit we are looking at about 3.5 dead models extra. This roughly translate to about 1 dead model extra for each round of combat per single assault marine squad.

 

If however we were to add this to a unit of termies instead. Lets say five strong with powerfists.

 

5 attacks -> 2.5 hits (50%) -> 2.08 wounds (83%) -> 2.08 wounds, no armour saves.

 

 

Interestingly enough, lets see how much The Sanguinor DOES HIMSELF.

 

5 attacks (no charge) -> 3.333 hits (66%) + 0.666 hits (re-roll) -> 2.666 wounds, no armour saves.

 

So interestingly enough The Sanguinor is doing more wounds than that 10 man assault squad since the numbers you give above as also the same numbers for one squad WHILE CHARGING and these calcs are made without The Sanguinor getting the charge and at S5 instead of 6.

 

So what have we learned? We have learned that it takes a lot to kill The Sanguinor but now I have proven that he can dish it out better than a 10 man assault squad with a powerfist attached who have charged that turn.

 

Again, not comparing the combat power of the librarian vs Sanguinor themselved, as that is not what I was addressing in this example; just the amount of extra hits.

 

The extra hits maybe the difference between winning a combat and failing one. Besides as I have shown above, The Sanguinor actually does more damage than a 10 man assault squad with a powerfist.

 

 

Fair enough, but the boost is still a pretty marginal bonus in the grand scheme of things.

 

Nope in the grand scheme of things I have shown mathematically why The Sanguinor does more damage than a 10 man assault squad with a powerfist costing 215pts and this is without adding on the charge for The Sanguinor which he is most likely to get, without the extra attacks he gives to those nearby, without the pimped up Sargent and lastly without his ability to re-roll against an independent character.

[knife&fork]

I also get a +1 attack bubble - although a 'fragile' one, as the sanguinor can't hide that well - but is it needed? The units that benefit the most from these are the 'elite' units DC/sanguinary guards/assault termies, as they've got a fair amount of special weaponry (10 ordinairy CC attacks vs MEQ only result in 0,825 wounds after all). But the elite either lack mobility or numbers to gain a lot from this bonus, and will gain more from added numbers to add both resilience and offensive power.

 

I have to disagree strongly with this part. Volume of attacks is extremely important for every unit that might find itself in CC.

Assault marines are not that great in CC and running into a grey hunter pack or CSM squad can be like hitting a brick wall. Some unlucky rolls in the first round of combat will get you stuck and then you loose momentum.

A single wound can often be the difference between a loss, tie or win. The more saves you force the less opportunities your opponent get to play wound allocation games.

 

Sometimes you might want to get stuck in an assault for an extra turn to save you from enemy shooting, what you never want is to get bogged down in a combat you're slowly losing.

 

 

I've never used the Sanguinor so far, but having played a lot of DoA type lists I could definitely see the +1A bubble coming in handy for both troops and dreads. This thread has at least convinced me to try taking him. Could all those points be spent in better ways to help my troops? Maybe, but it's not as simple as just adding more assault squads or fire support. Sanguinor is a case where you don't get the whole story just by looking at his stats.

[DarthOvious]

I also get a +1 attack bubble - although a 'fragile' one, as the sanguinor can't hide that well - but is it needed? The units that benefit the most from these are the 'elite' units DC/sanguinary guards/assault termies, as they've got a fair amount of special weaponry (10 ordinairy CC attacks vs MEQ only result in 0,825 wounds after all). But the elite either lack mobility or numbers to gain a lot from this bonus, and will gain more from added numbers to add both resilience and offensive power.

 

I have to disagree strongly with this part. Volume of attacks is extremely important for every unit that might find itself in CC.

Assault marines are not that great in CC and running into a grey hunter pack or CSM squad can be like hitting a brick wall. Some unlucky rolls in the first round of combat will get you stuck and then you loose momentum.

A single wound can often be the difference between a loss, tie or win. The more saves you force the less opportunities your opponent get to play wound allocation games.

 

Sometimes you might want to get stuck in an assault for an extra turn to save you from enemy shooting, what you never want is to get bogged down in a combat you're slowly losing.

 

 

I've never used the Sanguinor so far, but having played a lot of DoA type lists I could definitely see the +1A bubble coming in handy for both troops and dreads. This thread has at least convinced me to try taking him. Could all those points be spent in better ways to help my troops? Maybe, but it's not as simple as just adding more assault squads or fire support. Sanguinor is a case where you don't get the whole story just by looking at his stats.

 

Certainly, have a go and try him. I have liked him so far, once you get him into the combat then you're laughing all the way. Thats what I have found. I have killed off other characters without even needing the re-rolls to hit and wound.

 

What has been shown is that he takes a lot of shots to kill off, also remember he is a single model so he is easier to hide than a whole unit (terrain is your friend), he can dish out more wounds than a charging 10 man assault squad with a power fist. He is also an Eternal Warrior, so no instant death with a 2+ & 3++ save.

 

I will however admit this, he has some stiff competition from Mephy and Mephy has the uncanny ability to become S10 and go tank hunting & the psychic hood is also useful. So although I do love The Sanguinor and think he is a great character to have, a lot of the time I do take Mephy for his abilty to destroy vehicles, which is handy is a jumpers list.

[Leonaides]

6 attacks at S6 on a vehicles rear armour isnt exactly useless though - is it? Its not like there are many vehicles with a rear armour of 13 or 14 are there...