The Sanguinor

[DarthOvious]

6 attacks at S6 on a vehicles rear armour isnt exactly useless though - is it? Its not like there are many vehicles with a rear armour of 13 or 14 are there...

 

No its not useless, its still quite good. In saying that the other day I had a 1000pt game against a Necron player who took two monoliths. So I took Mephiston :D Mephiston took out one monolith and passed a toughness test thank goodness, while an assault marine squad with an infernus sarg took out the other one. :)

 

All in all some good fun. In saying that I did have Death Company with two Thunder Hammers in it as well another melta/infernus assault squad.

[knife&fork]

I will however admit this, he has some stiff competition from Mephy and Mephy has the uncanny ability to become S10 and go tank hunting & the psychic hood is also useful. So although I do love The Sanguinor and think he is a great character to have, a lot of the time I do take Mephy for his abilty to destroy vehicles, which is handy is a jumpers list.

 

That's the problem right there. It's difficult to give up Mephiston and/or Dante.

[DarthOvious]

I will however admit this, he has some stiff competition from Mephy and Mephy has the uncanny ability to become S10 and go tank hunting & the psychic hood is also useful. So although I do love The Sanguinor and think he is a great character to have, a lot of the time I do take Mephy for his abilty to destroy vehicles, which is handy is a jumpers list.

 

That's the problem right there. It's difficult to give up Mephiston and/or Dante.

 

Dante I only take for apocalypse. Thats so I can deep strike without scattering, I especially need it because I am bringing down other squads with lots of melta so I can blow up some super heavies. Other than that one thing, I would take The Sanguinor before Dante. The only struggle is with Mephy I find. Sometimes I just wanna taske both, but then I know I've put too much into my HQ choices. In saying that, showing that The Sanguinor can do just as well as assault squad might make me try using both sometime just to see how it works.

[Deschenus Maximus]

His combat abilities are included in his cost though. Unit cost is not just based on their survivability alone.

 

Of course - I just wanted to illustrate that really, he's not that tough.

 

Well IG field Battle Cannons

 

Not nearly every IG list I know of uses leman russes.

 

and every Eldar player I've played against has Dark Reapers and they USE THEM, especially when they know they're playing marines.

 

1) List-tailoring. Laaaaaame.

2) Still easily one of the worst choice in the Eldar HS regardless of that. BA still get cover saves and FnP, so really not that scary unless you are out in the open without a Priest.

 

There are still plenty of other AP3 shots though and that was my main point.

 

Not that many that I can think of: missile launchers, flamestorm cannons and... that's it, I think.

 

Also throw in rending assault cannons to the mix or any rending attack for that matter and those assault marines are still dying outright. In the case of rending they don't even get a feel no pain save

 

Rending also works on Sanguinor though. Yes, he has his 3+, if you are throwing enough rending to kill off a full squad of ASM with the rends, Sangui is just as screwed.

 

First, I will say that other units can get those extra attacks also.

 

Yes, but realistically, it is going to be hard to get more than 30 guys into a relatively small area of the board. Even with just 3 squads formed on 2 ranks, base to base, you are looking at a frontage of 15 inches. Since Sangui's bubble is only 6 inches in radius, going to be hard to pack more dudes in there AND get off any sort of decent charge.

 

So you're using the basic assault marines here in your calcs for this. You are also only counting one round of combat. This ability not only confers to subsequent rounds but also in your OPPONENTS assault phase, which makes it a hell of a lot more useful.

 

Hmm yeah; the same thing is true of Unleash Rage plus the attacks of the extra marines, so that point is moot.

 

Lets run the numbers shall we. Against a toughness 4, ws 4, 3+ arm sv squad.

 

In your example:

 

27 standard attack -> 13.5 hits (50%) -> 6.75 wounds (50%) -> 2.25 failed armour saves (33%)

 

3 powerfist attacks -> 1.5 hits (50%) -> 1.25 wounds (83%) -> 1.25 wounds, no armour saves (0%)

 

So for the 3 squads that you posit we are looking at about 3.5 dead models extra. This roughly translate to about 1 dead model extra for each round of combat per single assault marine squad.

 

If however we were to add this to a unit of termies instead. Lets say five strong with powerfists.

 

5 attacks -> 2.5 hits (50%) -> 2.08 wounds (83%) -> 2.08 wounds, no armour saves.

 

Again, I don't think realistically you could get 30 guys in AND 5 terminators AND Sanguinor AND get them all to charge effectively. So that example is not really realistic. You would have to make room for the termies, which means less ASM attacks.

 

Interestingly enough, lets see how much The Sanguinor DOES HIMSELF.

 

5 attacks (no charge) -> 3.333 hits (66%) + 0.666 hits (re-roll) -> 2.666 wounds, no armour saves.

 

So interestingly enough The Sanguinor is doing more wounds than that 10 man assault squad since the numbers you give above as also the same numbers for one squad WHILE CHARGING and these calcs are made without The Sanguinor getting the charge and at S5 instead of 6.

 

So what have we learned? We have learned that it takes a lot to kill The Sanguinor but now I have proven that he can dish it out better than a 10 man assault squad with a powerfist attached who have charged that turn.

 

No, Sanguinor does more damage than a 10 man squad that HASN'T charged (and not by much - 2.666 kills for the Sang, 2.166 for the ASM). When you compare them both charging, the Assault Squad (10 men, power fist, 2 meltaguns) actually do more:

 

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead marines

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 4.02 dead marines (2.777 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

That is not even taking into consideration the extra wounds caused by 8 bolt pistol and 2 meltas made before charging.

 

But that's not the whole picture, is it? What about when fighting Orks?

 

Not charging:

Sanguinor : 5 attacks = 4 hits = 2.666 dead Orks

 

ASM: 16 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 8 normal hits, 1 fist hit = 4 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 4.02 dead Orks (3.333 from normal attacks, 0.83 from fist)

 

Hmm, not looking quite as good now, is he? But wait, it gets better!

 

Charging:

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead Orks

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attack = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 8.19 dead Orks (6.94 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

So not only is he not better on the charge versus Marines, he gets completely blown out of the water versus horde-type units like Orks.

 

The extra hits maybe the difference between winning a combat and failing one.

 

The very small difference between what is generated by the Sang and the example I gave with the Rage libby and the extra ASM would matter in such exceedingly rare occasions that I think it's reasonable to discount that as being irrelevant.

 

Nope in the grand scheme of things I have shown mathematically why The Sanguinor does more damage than a 10 man assault squad with a powerfist costing 215pts and this is without adding on the charge for The Sanguinor which he is most likely to get, without the extra attacks he gives to those nearby, without the pimped up Sargent and lastly without his ability to re-roll against an independent character.

 

And as I have shown, Sang DOES NOT do more damage on the charge, only when standing still. And as I have explained, the difference between the number of extra hits generated by the Sang vice those by a Rage Libby and extra ASM is very small. The pimped up sarge is a fun gimmick, but compared to the utility of having a psychic hood and any secondary psychic power, plus being able to insta-kill stuff? Weak. And as I explained before the rerolls on HQs is only useful if your opponent brings an expensive HQ - which not many people do, at least in my neck of the woods.

[DarthOvious]

Of course - I just wanted to illustrate that really, he's not that tough.

 

Well he is really, AP3 shots he still gets a save against, not to mention he is easier to hide as he is a single model rather than squad.

 

Not nearly every IG list I know of uses leman russes.

 

It still wasn't the point I was making. AP3 shots kill those assault marine instantly. IG players can still take hot shot las guns or whatever other AP3 they have.

 

 

1) List-tailoring. Laaaaaame.

2) Still easily one of the worst choice in the Eldar HS regardless of that. BA still get cover saves and FnP, so really not that scary unless you are out in the open without a Priest.

 

1) The Eldar player I played against last week brought them to the 500 pt doubles tournie we had. Also my Eldar friend has them and he uses them.

2) No you don't get cover saves if the exarch has crack shot. You obviously don't know Eldar. Nice to see you're throwing FnP in there. How are getting this FnP? Oh thats right, you're buying a Sanguinary priest with a 6" BUBBBLE, the same type of 6" bubble you are arguing against here as being ineffective due to "space restrictions".

 

 

Not that many that I can think of: missile launchers, flamestorm cannons and... that's it, I think.

 

Missile launchers are actually quite popular in a lot of lists and then you dismiss it out of hand so readily.

 

 

Rending also works on Sanguinor though. Yes, he has his 3+, if you are throwing enough rending to kill off a full squad of ASM with the rends, Sangui is just as screwed.

 

Rending still kills marines outright with no save.

 

 

Yes, but realistically, it is going to be hard to get more than 30 guys into a relatively small area of the board. Even with just 3 squads formed on 2 ranks, base to base, you are looking at a frontage of 15 inches. Since Sangui's bubble is only 6 inches in radius, going to be hard to pack more dudes in there AND get off any sort of decent charge.

 

I take it you say the same thing about Sanguinary Priests then?

 

 

Hmm yeah; the same thing is true of Unleash Rage plus the attacks of the extra marines, so that point is moot.

 

The point I was making is that the extra attacks from the unit(s) gaining the bonus still happens in the subsequent rounds. With unleash rage, sure that happens in subsequent rounds also, but its only D3 extra attacks. Also lots of players might not want to take unleash rage with their libby.

 

No, Sanguinor does more damage than a 10 man squad that HASN'T charged (and not by much - 2.666 kills for the Sang, 2.166 for the ASM). When you compare them both charging, the Assault Squad (10 men, power fist, 2 meltaguns) actually do more:

 

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead marines

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 4.02 dead marines (2.777 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

That is not even taking into consideration the extra wounds caused by 8 bolt pistol and 2 meltas made before charging.

 

But that's not the whole picture, is it? What about when fighting Orks?

 

Not charging:

Sanguinor : 5 attacks = 4 hits = 2.666 dead Orks

 

ASM: 16 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 8 normal hits, 1 fist hit = 4 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 4.02 dead Orks (3.333 from normal attacks, 0.83 from fist)

 

Hmm, not looking quite as good now, is he? But wait, it gets better!

 

Charging:

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead Orks

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attack = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 8.19 dead Orks (6.94 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

So not only is he not better on the charge versus Marines, he gets completely blown out of the water versus horde-type units like Orks.

 

Your math here is wrong, check it again and repost. Also I think you are having these marines wound on a 3+. How is that? You're not giving them furious charge through some sort of useless 6" bubble are you? I mean how are you fitting in all these guys into 6" /s

 

Anyway its quite decitful of you to do this since the furious charge add on comes froma priest that YOU PAY POINTS FOR and yet you have not included that above.

 

 

The very small difference between what is generated by the Sang and the example I gave with the Rage libby and the extra ASM would matter in such exceedingly rare occasions that I think it's reasonable to discount that as being irrelevant.

 

No its not. It doesn't just go away just because you want it to.

 

 

And as I have shown, Sang DOES NOT do more damage on the charge, only when standing still. And as I have explained, the difference between the number of extra hits generated by the Sang vice those by a Rage Libby and extra ASM is very small. The pimped up sarge is a fun gimmick, but compared to the utility of having a psychic hood and any secondary psychic power, plus being able to insta-kill stuff? Weak. And as I explained before the rerolls on HQs is only useful if your opponent brings an expensive HQ - which not many people do, at least in my neck of the woods.

 

 

No you didn't, your math was all wrong. So you had better check it again.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Well he is really, AP3 shots he still gets a save against,

 

AP3 weapons is not his weakpoint - lots of AP1/2 shots and torrenting are.

 

not to mention he is easier to hide as he is a single model rather than squad.

 

Hide him where exactly? If we're discussing a DoA list, the only way to hide him is behind terrain that blocks line of sight. Since he has to get out in the open to assault, he will have to expose his butt sooner or later.

 

It still wasn't the point I was making. AP3 shots kill those assault marine instantly.

 

Unless they have cover.

 

IG players can still take hot shot las guns or whatever other AP3 they have.

 

Hotshots still allow you to have FNP, and if you have cover, you go from a 3+/4+FnP to 4+/4+ FnP. Nothing to be too worried over.

 

 

1) The Eldar player I played against last week brought them to the 500 pt doubles tournie we had. Also my Eldar friend has them and he uses them.

 

Hey, you are the one who said "especially when they know they're playing marines." That's called list-tailoring.

 

2) No you don't get cover saves if the exarch has crack shot. You obviously don't know Eldar.

 

Before you shoot your mouth off, you should probably open the Eldar codex and have a look at what Crackshot actually does. Only the exarch ignores cover saves - not the rest of the squad.

 

Nice to see you're throwing FnP in there. How are getting this FnP? Oh thats right, you're buying a Sanguinary priest with a 6" BUBBBLE, the same type of 6" bubble you are arguing against here as being ineffective due to "space restrictions".

 

You do know that you can take more than 1 priest, right? Space restriction does not apply when you have 2+ priests spreading the FnP love.

 

Missile launchers are actually quite popular in a lot of lists and then you dismiss it out of hand so readily.

 

*shrugs* yeah, they are popular in certain lists. They are not universal, however, and you still get your 4+ cover save when you do face them, so its not like missile are as big a threat to jump marines like they are for armoured lists. That's one of the nice features of a jump list - the enemy antitank suddenly is suddenly very cost-inneffective.

 

Rending still kills marines outright with no save.

 

Unless they have cover, which they should, really. And rending still kills Sanguinor too, so since both are affected, the point is still moot.

 

I take it you say the same thing about Sanguinary Priests then?

 

Again, you can take more than 1 Priest.

 

The point I was making is that the extra attacks from the unit(s) gaining the bonus still happens in the subsequent rounds. With unleash rage, sure that happens in subsequent rounds also, but its only D3 extra attacks. Also lots of players might not want to take unleash rage with their libby.

 

You have your powers wrong. Unleash Rage allows you to reroll all your hits in close combat. The power you are thinking of is Might of Heroes. Rage is a good power when you have a large unit of assault marines, so why not take it?

 

Your math here is wrong, check it again and repost.

 

Unless Excell somehow developped some sort of math impediment, there is nothing wrong with my math.

 

Also I think you are having these marines wound on a 3+. How is that? You're not giving them furious charge through some sort of useless 6" bubble are you? I mean how are you fitting in all these guys into 6" /s

 

Again, multiple bubbles from multiple priests. Seriously, that is basic Blood Angels stuff here.

 

Anyway its quite decitful of you to do this since the furious charge add on comes froma priest that YOU PAY POINTS FOR and yet you have not included that above.

 

Are you saying that you wouldn't take Priests in a list with Sanguinor for some reason? Cause otherwise, since both your list and mine would have Priests, I don't see how it is deceitful, or relevant for that matter.

 

No its not. It doesn't just go away just because you want it to.

 

I'm just saying it like it is. Sorry you don't see it that way.

 

No you didn't, your math was all wrong. So you had better check it again.

 

No it's not. Do it for yourself and see.

[knife&fork]

The point I was making is that the extra attacks from the unit(s) gaining the bonus still happens in the subsequent rounds. With unleash rage, sure that happens in subsequent rounds also, but its only D3 extra attacks. Also lots of players might not want to take unleash rage with their libby.

 

I think you might be confusing 'rage' with 'might'. Rage is preferred enemy, might is d3 attacks.

 

Still, the fact that you get these extra attacks every phase with no chance of nullifying them is pretty big. And the sanguinor is a much more durable delivery system for the buffs compared to the librarian.

 

I do not consider librarians (or priests) to be a good pick for armies that want to get up close and personal. Way too easy to take out 1-2 wounds with no invul, and with them gone you've usually lost your edge.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Still, the fact that you get these extra attacks every phase with no chance of nullifying them is pretty big. And the sanguinor is a much more durable delivery system for the buffs compared to the librarian.

 

Durable in CC, yes, but remember that against shooting attacks, he has all the squad members to soak up wounds for him.

 

I do not consider librarians (or priests) to be a good pick for armies that want to get up close and personal. Way too easy to take out 1-2 wounds with no invul, and with them gone you've usually lost your edge.

 

You don't take priests in assault lists? :)

[knife&fork]

Durable in CC, yes, but remember that against shooting attacks, he has all the squad members to soak up wounds for him.

 

A similar challenge you face with memphy, and I haven't found it impossible to keep him out of harms way.

 

It's not the shooting that worries me when running a lib, it's the combat. If everything goes right my units will have to endure more assault phases than shooting phases. The librarian on the other hand still has that T4, no invul and only two wounds. A perils and a PW attack landing is all it takes.

 

You don't take priests in assault lists? :)

 

PA priests with JP, no. They are expensive for what they do and die too easily.

 

TDA priest and noviates, yes.

[Morticon]

Desch and Darth - you guys are dancing on the line of civility here.

Darth, you a little bit more so.

Feel free to agree, disagree and discuss all you want - but leave out the snide comments you guys are jabbing each other with, please.

 

I'm sure members are enjoying the differing opinions and discussion as much as I, so it would be a shame to lock the thread and start issuing warnings.

[DarthOvious]

Well since you're insistent that your math is correct, we will look at it.

 

No, Sanguinor does more damage than a 10 man squad that HASN'T charged (and not by much - 2.666 kills for the Sang, 2.166 for the ASM). When you compare them both charging, the Assault Squad (10 men, power fist, 2 meltaguns) actually do more:

 

In my example the Sanguinor didn't charge but the assault marines did. If you are now adding 2 meltaguns onto your assault squad then your unit is now 235pts.

 

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead marines

 

Yes, this is fine so far.

 

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 4.02 dead marines (2.777 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

This is where your math is wrong. It should read:

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 6.25 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 3.3333 dead marines (2.08 from normal, 1.25 from fist)

 

In your example you are wounding on 3s, which is ONLY THE CASE if you then spend 75pts (with jump pack) on a priest to attach to the squad. This now makes your assault marines 310pts, thus costing more than The Sanguinor.

 

That is not even taking into consideration the extra wounds caused by 8 bolt pistol and 2 meltas made before charging.

 

True, but The Sanguinor also has more staying power in subsequent rounds of combat. In terms of the pistols you are talking 0.888 extra dead marines and the meltaguns are an extra 1.11 extra marines. Some people might not want to shoot though as doing so might mean your opponent can remove models to stop you from getting into combat. Once you do get into combat you will start losing attacks as your marines will die off. Heck, getting your whole ten men into combat in the first place is a big ask, so you will more than likely not be getting a full units of attacks with lost wounds. The Sanguinor GETS ALL HIS ATTACKS as long as he is not dead, so he has room for a loss of two wounds.

 

But that's not the whole picture, is it? What about when fighting Orks?

 

So what? What about fighting Eldar who will get to strike before marines? How about we run your numbers against Striking Scorpions or something after they've HIT YOU FIRST.

 

Not charging:

Sanguinor : 5 attacks = 4 hits = 2.666 dead Orks

 

ASM: 16 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 8 normal hits, 1 fist hit = 4 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 4.02 dead Orks (3.333 from normal attacks, 0.83 from fist)

 

Striking Scorpions: 3 attacks each if not charging. Say a unit of 9 of them, using just their normal chainswords. I might be wrong, but I think it makes them S5. I will need to check the Eldar codex later. I will re-run the numbers if they are S4.

 

27 Attacks -> 18 hits (66%) -> 12 wounds (66%) -> 4 dead marines BEFORE you attack.

 

Attacks back -> 13 attacks, 3 fist attacks -> 6.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits -> 4.33333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds -> 2.69 dead scorpions (1.25 from fist and 1.44 from normal)

 

Lost combat by 1.31 models.

 

Now for The Sanguinor at I7

 

6 Attacks -> 4.66666 hits -> 3.88888 wounds -> 3.888888 Dead Scorpions we'll even round downwards to killing 3.

 

Scorpions back -> 18 Attacks -> 9 hits -> 6 wounds -> 1 failed armour sv by Sanguinor.

 

The Sanguinor wins combat by 2.

 

So no, its not the whole picture but your example is tailored to your argument and then you complain about Eldar players tailoring their lists.

 

 

Charging:

Sanguinor: 6 attack = 4.666 hits (with MC reroll) = 3.888 dead Orks

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attack = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 8.333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 8.19 dead Orks (6.94 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist)

 

Yes, but your argument only works vs Ork boys. Put the Sanguinor up against a Warboss or something and the story is likely to be different. The Sanguinor is specifically designed to take on elite units, which is very helpful; considering that Mephy isn't and is a troop and Tank killer.

 

So not only is he not better on the charge versus Marines, he gets completely blown out of the water versus horde-type units like Orks.

 

No, with the marines you were adding on stuff that cost extra which meant your assault marine squad ended up costing more than The Sanguinor. Its no surprise that under those circumstances that you now get more damage out of them, but at 310pts for it all you are now costing more than The Sanguinor. In the other thread you were the one who was adamant that they knew what they were talking about when it came to points efficiency, so I now find it surprising that you forgot about the extra points that a Priest costs.

[DarthOvious]

Desch and Darth - you guys are dancing on the line of civility here.

Darth, you a little bit more so.

 

Fair enough I apologise if I am coming across too harsh. I will admit that saying that Desch was being deceitful was crossing the line.

 

Also to note I have edited my current post to remove some language which may appear confrontational.

[DarthOvious]

First off I will apologise for any offense I may have caused. None was meant.

 

AP3 weapons is not his weakpoint - lots of AP1/2 shots and torrenting are.

 

The same can be said for anything though. Basically Terminators with T/Hammers and Storm Shields have a 2+/3++ save as well and a unit of them cost 200pts, so they could come down to torrenting fire.

 

Hide him where exactly? If we're discussing a DoA list, the only way to hide him is behind terrain that blocks line of sight. Since he has to get out in the open to assault, he will have to expose his butt sooner or later.

 

Well yes, he can hide behind terrain that blocks line of sight or he can hide behind a vehicle if you take one. Hide behind a combat even. Drop him with Vanguard Vets and while they assault and gain the +1 attack the resulting combat can screen you from enemy fire.

 

Unless they have cover.

 

To quote you. "they will have to expose their butts sooner or later".

 

 

Hotshots still allow you to have FNP, and if you have cover, you go from a 3+/4+FnP to 4+/4+ FnP. Nothing to be too worried over.

 

Yes, providing you spend the extra 75 pts for a priest which puts your assault squads as costing more than The Sanguinor. The Sanguinor will also benefit from the feel no pain.

 

 

Hey, you are the one who said "especially when they know they're playing marines." That's called list-tailoring.

 

Yes, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you play against friends who you know have a certain army.

 

 

Before you shoot your mouth off, you should probably open the Eldar codex and have a look at what Crackshot actually does. Only the exarch ignores cover saves - not the rest of the squad.

 

I did say the exarch in my statement, so no I'm not shooting my mouth off. Not to mention that the Exarchs weapon is a BLAST weapon with 2 shots. So he is getting an awful lot of marines with it and if you have to spread out to minimise blast damage then you are not going to make full use of cover then.

 

 

You do know that you can take more than 1 priest, right? Space restriction does not apply when you have 2+ priests spreading the FnP love.

 

Yes I do know that, but are you taking into account the points cost when you pay for those priests? Don't get me wrong, they are effective but you can't kid on that this doesn't change the matter about cost effectiveness between an assault squad and The Sanguinor.

 

 

*shrugs* yeah, they are popular in certain lists. They are not universal, however, and you still get your 4+ cover save when you do face them, so its not like missile are as big a threat to jump marines like they are for armoured lists. That's one of the nice features of a jump list - the enemy antitank suddenly is suddenly very cost-inneffective.

 

Sure cover is great, I admit that, but if you can find cover for a whole squad then I don't see how finding line of sight blocking against The Sanguinor should be difficult. Not to mention some guys will still die with cover saves and they wont get into combat.

 

 

Unless they have cover, which they should, really. And rending still kills Sanguinor too, so since both are affected, the point is still moot.

 

The Sanguinor still gets his 3++ save against rending hits though. At best a squad of assault marines will get 4+ cover save at best. They might only get 5+ or something and also might suffer wounds from template AP3 weapons instead.

 

 

Again, you can take more than 1 Priest.

 

If we're taking 2 priests then its costing 150pts with jump packs.

 

You have your powers wrong. Unleash Rage allows you to reroll all your hits in close combat. The power you are thinking of is Might of Heroes. Rage is a good power when you have a large unit of assault marines, so why not take it?

 

Sorry my mistake, got confused with might of heroes. Yes, you could take a librarian at 125pts and it is an option but once again for that ability you are paying points which puts your price above that of The Sanguinor.

 

There is no difference to what you said here and then I reply with, well take a recluisarch, 9 death company and Lemartes and give them all power weapons and they will outkill your assault marines in close combat. Yes, sure they would but then look at the points you pay for that. It would cost you 595pts to do that and thats without a Stormraven to go with them.

 

 

Unless Excell somehow developped some sort of math impediment, there is nothing wrong with my math.

 

What was wrong was you had those assault marines wounding on 3s.

 

 

Again, multiple bubbles from multiple priests. Seriously, that is basic Blood Angels stuff here.

 

Points costage is also a basic philosophy within 40k

 

 

Are you saying that you wouldn't take Priests in a list with Sanguinor for some reason? Cause otherwise, since both your list and mine would have Priests, I don't see how it is deceitful, or relevant for that matter.

 

It matters because those priests confer those abilities at a points cost. You don't get them for nothing. At 310pts for your assault squad with a powerfist and 2 meltaguns with an attached jump priest then its understandable why the damage output would be more than The Sanguinor since they cost more.

 

 

I'm just saying it like it is. Sorry you don't see it that way.

 

You're not exactly jumping at the chance to see my side of it either, are you?

 

 

No it's not. Do it for yourself and see.

 

I did check it and I told you what was wrong with it.

[DarthOvious]

I think you might be confusing 'rage' with 'might'. Rage is preferred enemy, might is d3 attacks.

 

Yes, my mistake I got confused.

 

Still, the fact that you get these extra attacks every phase with no chance of nullifying them is pretty big. And the sanguinor is a much more durable delivery system for the buffs compared to the librarian.

 

The problem with the libby is he costs points to add onto an assault squad. Through our whole discussion its all been about giving the assault marines extras in order to make them look more killy than The Sanguinor but those extras at the end of the day cost points and then the cost effectivenees needs to be re-evaluated with the points boost taken into account.

 

I do not consider librarians (or priests) to be a good pick for armies that want to get up close and personal. Way too easy to take out 1-2 wounds with no invul, and with them gone you've usually lost your edge.

 

I use Priests. I even give them a power weapon, I seem to find for the most part people don't bother with them. I don't know why because they should. I suppose once they get into combat they have already been given their furious charge and feel no pain.

[Deschenus Maximus]

A similar challenge you face with memphy, and I haven't found it impossible to keep him out of harms way.

 

Mephy has T6 and 5 wounds, however. It's very hard to take him down with small arms. Even with heavy weapons, it is no easy feat as long as you keep him behind the cover of a squad.

 

It's not the shooting that worries me when running a lib, it's the combat. If everything goes right my units will have to endure more assault phases than shooting phases. The librarian on the other hand still has that T4, no invul and only two wounds. A perils and a PW attack landing is all it takes.

 

I don't disagree that the libby is considerably more vulnerable in assaults, but with the mobility of the jump pack, I find that it is relatively easy to avoid things like power weapons and power fists. That is not to say that he can't be struck down by sheer volume of attacks, but I would say that, generally speaking, I have been pretty successful in keeping my libbies alive, short of unlucky psychic tests that resul in Perils.

 

PA priests with JP, no. They are expensive for what they do and die too easily.

 

TDA priest and noviates, yes.

 

Sample list, if you please? I can see how the novitiate fits in, but the TDA priest? In a full DoA list?

[knife&fork]

Mephy has T6 and 5 wounds, however. It's very hard to take him down with small arms. Even with heavy weapons, it is no easy feat as long as you keep him behind the cover of a squad.

 

Not saying that they are exactly the same, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Memphy dislikes low ap, poisoned, force- and power-weapons while sanguinor obviously is more vulnerable to volume of fire.

 

 

I don't disagree that the libby is considerably more vulnerable in assaults, but with the mobility of the jump pack, I find that it is relatively easy to avoid things like power weapons and power fists. That is not to say that he can't be struck down by sheer volume of attacks, but I would say that, generally speaking, I have been pretty successful in keeping my libbies alive, short of unlucky psychic tests that resul in Perils.

 

Ideally yes, you can keep him out of harms way (at least the first round of combat). But it doesn't take a lot to kill him and any opponent with mobile units is probably going to try to take him out ASAP. It's easily worth sacrificing a small unit early on to take out a lib or priest.

 

Sample list, if you please? I can see how the novitiate fits in, but the TDA priest? In a full DoA list?

 

I haven't played a 'pure' DoA (all jump packs) list in ages, I usually play a list with most units DS capable and the rest scouting, infiltrating or very agile (Mephiston). If there's a TDA priest he goes with a full squad of shooty terminators. 35 pts for 2+/5++ a PW and teleport is a pretty good deal and he will spend the game in a sturdy support unit rather than being on the front line. The squad has a huge footprint so it's quite easy to get some FnP+FC coverage for another squad as well as cover saves.

[Deschenus Maximus]

This is where your math is wrong. It should read:

 

ASM: 25 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 12.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 6.25 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 3.3333 dead marines (2.08 from normal, 1.25 from fist)

 

In your example you are wounding on 3s, which is ONLY THE CASE if you then spend 75pts (with jump pack) on a priest to attach to the squad. This now makes your assault marines 310pts, thus costing more than The Sanguinor.

 

Darth, the mistake you are making is looking at it in a vacuum. Your list would have jump priests to give your guys (including the Sanguinor) FnP/FC, would it not? So would mine. Ergo, its not a mistake to assume that they get FC since within the context of the army, they would have it.

 

But just for the sake of argument, let's do it your way, and modify our unit to reflect the cost of the Priest while not going above 275 pts (Sang's cost) - 1 Sang Priest with Jump pack, 8 Assault Marines with fist and single melta (264 pts):

 

Against Marines, receiving charge:

 

Sang is still 2.66 kills

 

ASM + Priest: 3 Priest attacks, 13 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 2 priest hits, 6.5 normal hits, 1 fist hit = 1 priest wound, 3.25 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 2.25 dead marines (0.33 from priest, 1.08 from ASM, 0.83 from sarge)

 

So Sang still ahead, but margin decreasing compared to previous example.

 

Against Marines, charging:

 

Sang is still 3.88 dead marines

 

ASM + Priest: 4 Priest attacks, 20 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 2.66 priest hits, 10 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 1.77 priest wounds, 6.666 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 4.06 dead marines (0.59 from priest, 2.22 from ASM, 1.25 sarge)

 

So you see, even with 10 points to spare compared to Sanguinius, the Priest + ASM combo is still netting you more kills. I can run the numbers against Orks, but I don't think that is necessary, as we know the Priest + ASM will win that too.

 

True, but The Sanguinor also has more staying power in subsequent rounds of combat.

 

Yes an no - his combat power doesn't go down until he dies, unlike the ASM getting whittle down through attrition, but it actually takes less normal CC attacks to bring him down, statistically, than the 10 man squad we were discussing (against a WS4, S4 opponent, Sang falls to 72 normal attacks, the 10 ASM to 120 such attacks if neither have FnP). If going up against power-weapon wielding foes, it takes about the same number of wounds to kill him off that it take to kill the 10 man squad, also (against WS4, S4 power weapon wielding opponent, it takes 36 attacks to fell him and 40 attacks to fell all 10 ASM).

 

In terms of the pistols you are talking 0.888 extra dead marines and the meltaguns are an extra 1.11 extra marines. Some people might not want to shoot though as doing so might mean your opponent can remove models to stop you from getting into combat.

 

That's why I didn't factor them in. It is still worth mentionning them though, as some (most) situations will allow you to use them.

 

Once you do get into combat you will start losing attacks as your marines will die off.

 

True, but the impact on your army as a whole of losing those Marines vice that of losing the Sanguinor is also not going to be the same.

 

Heck, getting your whole ten men into combat in the first place is a big ask, so you will more than likely not be getting a full units of attacks with lost wounds.

 

It will depend entirely on the disposition of the enemy. From personnal experience, it is not that hard to get 10 guys into a fight.

 

That said, say I take your argument at face value - this also means that the Sanguinor's aura is less valuable. After all, if the whole unit is not able to get in on the action, that is a bunch of +1 attacks that are not getting made as well.

 

So what? What about fighting Eldar who will get to strike before marines? How about we run your numbers against Striking Scorpions or something after they've HIT YOU FIRST.

 

Sure, let’s do that (see below).

 

Striking Scorpions: 3 attacks each if not charging. Say a unit of 9 of them, using just their normal chainswords. I might be wrong, but I think it makes them S5. I will need to check the Eldar codex later. I will re-run the numbers if they are S4.

 

27 Attacks -> 18 hits (66%) -> 12 wounds (66%) -> 4 dead marines BEFORE you attack.

 

Attacks back -> 13 attacks, 3 fist attacks -> 6.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits -> 4.33333 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds -> 2.69 dead scorpions (1.25 from fist and 1.44 from normal)

 

Lost combat by 1.31 models.

 

Your math is off because the Scorpion Chainsword gives them S4, not S5, and they have WS 4, not 5. The correct math is as follows:

 

27 attacks = 13.5 hits = 6.75 wounds = 2.25 dead (let’s round up to 3, just to be nice)

 

7 Marines fight back (no FC this time): 17 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 8.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 5.666 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 3.13 dead Scorpions (1.88 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist).

 

Victory by 0.88 for the Marines.

 

But that’s not a very good example, is it? Let’s run this with the Priest + ASM squad from earlier to see how that compares to Sanguinor. Both Scorprions and Marines strike simultaneously thank to FC:

 

Scorpions kill 1.125 marines now due to FnP

 

ASM + Priest kill 4.76 scorpions, winning the fight by 3.64 wounds.

 

With the correct numbers, Sanguinor still kills 3.888 but the scorps only do 0.75 wounds to him, meaning he wins by 3.13.

 

So no, its not the whole picture but your example is tailored to your argument and then you complain about Eldar players tailoring their lists.

 

As shown above, at equal points value, Priest + ASM are still better damage-dealers than Sanguinor. As for tailoring to the argument, is that not what you did yourself when you chose Marines as the target in your initial comparison, completely ignoring horde-type units?

 

Yes, but your argument only works vs Ork boys. Put the Sanguinor up against a Warboss or something and the story is likely to be different.

 

That is extremely dependant on the situation. Is the Warboss in Mega Armour? Heavy Armour? Does he have the 5+ invul? Is he accompanied by a Painboy?

 

If you`re looking at a Warboss with Klaw and ‘Eavy armour alone, for example, the ASM + Priest from earlier actually still do a bit more damage (4.875 wounds to 4.74 for Sanguinor, even with all the rerolls). If you add the 5+ invuln, the disparity falls further in favour of the ASM (4.45 wounds to 3.16). If the Boss is in Mega Armour, then it swings in Sanguinor’s favour (4.74 to 2.45). Same thing if a Painboy is present. So it’s not so cut and dry.

 

The Sanguinor is specifically designed to take on elite units, which is very helpful; considering that Mephy isn't and is a troop and Tank killer.

 

Again, very dependant on the type of Elite unit you are talking about.

 

No, with the marines you were adding on stuff that cost extra which meant your assault marine squad ended up costing more than The Sanguinor. Its no surprise that under those circumstances that you now get more damage out of them, but at 310pts for it all you are now costing more than The Sanguinor. In the other thread you were the one who was adamant that they knew what they were talking about when it came to points efficiency, so I now find it surprising that you forgot about the extra points that a Priest costs.

 

Well I went back and took that into account above, and it still came out in favour of the ASM + Priest for the Marines, Ork Boyz and Scorpions, so the point stands.

[DarthOvious]

Ideally yes, you can keep him out of harms way (at least the first round of combat). But it doesn't take a lot to kill him and any opponent with mobile units is probably going to try to take him out ASAP. It's easily worth sacrificing a small unit early on to take out a lib or priest.

 

I was under the impression that independent characters were the first to move into combat and had to if they could.

[knife&fork]

Ideally yes, you can keep him out of harms way (at least the first round of combat). But it doesn't take a lot to kill him and any opponent with mobile units is probably going to try to take him out ASAP. It's easily worth sacrificing a small unit early on to take out a lib or priest.

 

I was under the impression that independent characters were the first to move into combat and had to if they could.

 

You can try to position him before combat so that he can't engage anyone, keeping him alive can be more important than making his attacks. Or make sure that a model with fist/claw/pw is not in base2base with him.

[Deschenus Maximus]

First off I will apologise for any offense I may have caused. None was meant.

 

Apologies accepted. And I am sorry too.

 

The same can be said for anything though. Basically Terminators with T/Hammers and Storm Shields have a 2+/3++ save as well and a unit of them cost 200pts, so they could come down to torrenting fire.

 

 

I know, I was just pointing out that saying he his very resilient due to not caring about AP3 doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

 

Well yes, he can hide behind terrain that blocks line of sight

 

With the rules for TLoS, that is not always as simple as that.

 

or he can hide behind a vehicle if you take one.

 

Well we were talking pure DoA here, were we not?

Hide behind a combat even. Drop him with Vanguard Vets and while they assault and gain the +1 attack the resulting combat can screen you from enemy fire.

 

That will protect him from enemy fire coming up from behind the combat, but leaves him vulnerable from attacks coming from the sides.

 

To quote you. "they will have to expose their butts sooner or later".

 

That’s the beauty of having a Librarian – even out in the open you can still get a 5+ cover.

 

Yes, providing you spend the extra 75 pts for a priest which puts your assault squads as costing more than The Sanguinor. The Sanguinor will also benefit from the feel no pain.

 

 

Again, both your list with the Sanguinor and mine without would have Priests in them, so that is a moot point.

 

Yes, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you play against friends who you know have a certain army.

 

 

Hmm, well we have differing opinions on that then. I find that is being most unsportsmanlike, especially if your opponent doesn’t expect it. I always play as if I didn’t know what my opponent is fielding, regardless of knowing it or not. Only exception would be if we both agreed beforehand to tailor to beat each other. Is that the case? If so then fine.

 

 

I did say the exarch in my statement, so no I'm not shooting my mouth off.

 

The way you worded your comment seemed to imply that you don’t get cover saves at all as long as the exarch has Crackshot. At the very least it was less than clear what you meant.

 

Not to mention that the Exarchs weapon is a BLAST weapon with 2 shots. So he is getting an awful lot of marines with it and if you have to spread out to minimise blast damage then you are not going to make full use of cover then.

 

Between scatter and feel no pain, it's not that scary really.

 

Yes I do know that, but are you taking into account the points cost when you pay for those priests? Don't get me wrong, they are effective but you can't kid on that this doesn't change the matter about cost effectiveness between an assault squad and The Sanguinor.

 

 

Again this is a case where both your list and mine would have Priests in them, so it’s not like its unfair.

 

Sure cover is great, I admit that, but if you can find cover for a whole squad then I don't see how finding line of sight blocking against The Sanguinor should be difficult.

 

True Line of Sight versus Area terrain. Getting cover saves for squads is easy, hiding things completely, not quite as easy. It really depends on how much terrain you have, and more importantly, what kind of terrain you have.

 

Not to mention some guys will still die with cover saves and they wont get into combat.

 

I don’t deny that, but in that instance, assuming you have Assault Marines of your own, both our lists would be equally affected by missiles, as it would be a waste to shoot at the Sanguinor with them.

 

 

The Sanguinor still gets his 3++ save against rending hits though. At best a squad of assault marines will get 4+ cover save at best.

 

Killing a full squad of ASM in cover is actually going to be harder than killing the Sanguinor. Need to do 20 rending wounds to the ASM to kill them all, but only 9 to the Sanguinor.

 

They might only get 5+ or something

 

In which case they are still tougher to kill off completely than Sangman. 15 rending wounds to kill all the ASM, still 9 for the Sanguinor.

and also might suffer wounds from template AP3 weapons instead.

 

Ap3 flamer template weapons? Or just blast weapons?

 

 

If we're taking 2 priests then its costing 150pts with jump packs.

 

Yes, and this is something that both your list and mine need to do.

 

Sorry my mistake, got confused with might of heroes. Yes, you could take a librarian at 125pts and it is an option but once again for that ability you are paying points which puts your price above that of The Sanguinor.

 

Well obviously you would need to cut something out to make him fit.

 

There is no difference to what you said here and then I reply with, well take a recluisarch, 9 death company and Lemartes and give them all power weapons and they will outkill your assault marines in close combat. Yes, sure they would but then look at the points you pay for that. It would cost you 595pts to do that and thats without a Stormraven to go with them.

 

 

I’ve illustrated in my previous reply that at equal points value, ASM + Priest outkill Sanguinor in at least 3 situations which we’ve looked at.

 

 

What was wrong was you had those assault marines wounding on 3s.

 

 

There was nothing wrong with that within the context of the army as a whole, and I did the calculations with Priest + ASM after, which still supported what I had put forth earlier.

 

Points costage is also a basic philosophy within 40k

 

This is something that neither your list nor mine could avoid including, so why bring that up?

 

 

It matters because those priests confer those abilities at a points cost. You don't get them for nothing. At 310pts for your assault squad with a powerfist and 2 meltaguns with an attached jump priest then its understandable why the damage output would be more than The Sanguinor since they cost more.

 

 

Again, at equal points value, still ASM + Priest outkilling Sanguinor.

 

You're not exactly jumping at the chance to see my side of it either, are you?

 

Darth: I have actually been in your shoes before, taken a good long hard look at the issue, and came to the conclusions that I am presenting here in this thread. Hence why I am not “seeing your side” – I have already seen it, and found it wanting.

 

I did check it and I told you what was wrong with it.

 

Adressed that enough times already, I think.

[knife&fork]

A question for the folks that own the model... Can you hide him behind a dread?

 

 

What has really kept me from fielding the Sanguinor so far is probably the 3 wounds. Everytime I take a fresh look at him he looks interesting.. until you get to the W - 3 part. :D

Hands up everyone who has failed three or more 3+ or 2+ saves in a single phase. With vampire jesus you at least get some room for bad luck and small mistakes.

[JamesI]

Ideally yes, you can keep him out of harms way (at least the first round of combat). But it doesn't take a lot to kill him and any opponent with mobile units is probably going to try to take him out ASAP. It's easily worth sacrificing a small unit early on to take out a lib or priest.

 

I was under the impression that independent characters were the first to move into combat and had to if they could.

IC only have to move first when responding to being charged. On the charge they don't have to move first and it can be manipulated to try to keep them safe.

[Deschenus Maximus]

A question for the folks that own the model... Can you hide him behind a dread?

 

 

Directly from the front, I believe so, but he will still be exposed to fire coming from the sides.

 

 

What has really kept me from fielding the Sanguinor so far is probably the 3 wounds. Everytime I take a fresh look at him he looks interesting.. until you get to the W - 3 part. :D

Hands up everyone who has failed three or more 3+ or 2+ saves in a single phase. With vampire jesus you at least get some room for bad luck and small mistakes.

 

Yep. That's what I've been saying: 3 wounds, even with 2+/3++, is not that tough.

[DarthOvious]

Darth, the mistake you are making is looking at it in a vacuum. Your list would have jump priests to give your guys (including the Sanguinor) FnP/FC, would it not? So would mine. Ergo, its not a mistake to assume that they get FC since within the context of the army, they would have it.

 

Yes, but those abilities are paid for by the priests in points. That was the point I was making. You could say the same thing about Death Company with a Chaplain, but it doesn't change the fact that points are spent. You wouldn't all of a sudden say "Look the Death Company are more killy than your squad" and then go on to automatically include re-rolls to hit and wound just because they can be given it and then say "Ha, that makes the Death Company more cost effective".

 

We could try it now. a 10 man Death Company with 2 power weapons at 230 pts

 

32 attacks, 8 PW attacks -> 28.444 normal hits, 7.11 PW hits -> 25.282 normal wounds, 6.30 PW wounds -> 14.72 dead marines.

 

Yah, my squad kills so much more than yours. See how I just automatically included the chaplains re-rolls in that without putting on the points cost for him. In saying that they do a heck of a lot more wounds even without that. Run the numbers yourself on this. honestly.

 

Actually, seriously, hang on a minute. That is actually ridiculously sick. I'm going to be fielding more death company in future. Rhinos are my freind.

 

But just for the sake of argument, let's do it your way, and modify our unit to reflect the cost of the Priest while not going above 275 pts (Sang's cost) - 1 Sang Priest with Jump pack, 8 Assault Marines with fist and single melta (264 pts):

 

Now you're talking

 

 

Against Marines, receiving charge:

 

Sang is still 2.66 kills

 

ASM + Priest: 3 Priest attacks, 13 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 2 priest hits, 6.5 normal hits, 1 fist hit = 1 priest wound, 3.25 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 2.25 dead marines (0.33 from priest, 1.08 from ASM, 0.83 from sarge)

 

So Sang still ahead, but margin decreasing compared to previous example.

 

Yes, he is still ahead.

 

 

Against Marines, charging:

 

Sang is still 3.88 dead marines

 

ASM + Priest: 4 Priest attacks, 20 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 2.66 priest hits, 10 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 1.77 priest wounds, 6.666 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 4.06 dead marines (0.59 from priest, 2.22 from ASM, 1.25 sarge)

 

Yes, correct.

 

 

So you see, even with 10 points to spare compared to Sanguinius, the Priest + ASM combo is still netting you more kills. I can run the numbers against Orks, but I don't think that is necessary, as we know the Priest + ASM will win that too.

 

OK, and how many extra kills were the squad getting because of The Sanguinors ability passed onto them?

 

1 extra priest attack, 7 extra normal attacks, 1 extra fist attack -> 0.66 priest hits, 3.5 normal hits, 0.83 fist hits -> 2.2 dead marines (0.22 from priest, 1.15 normal, 0.83 fist)

 

So that means there are 6.08 dead marines in total thanks to The Sanguinor. I believe thats pretty good if you ask me.

 

Yes an no - his combat power doesn't go down until he dies, unlike the ASM getting whittle down through attrition, but it actually takes less normal CC attacks to bring him down, statistically, than the 10 man squad we were discussing (against a WS4, S4 opponent, Sang falls to 72 normal attacks, the 10 ASM to 120 such attacks if neither have FnP). If going up against power-weapon wielding foes, it takes about the same number of wounds to kill him off that it take to kill the 10 man squad, also (against WS4, S4 power weapon wielding opponent, it takes 36 attacks to fell him and 40 attacks to fell all 10 ASM).

 

The Sanguinor also has higher intiiative and so a lot time will be going first. At I7 on the charge he even goes before a lot of Eldar stuff. Grey Knights Halbards strike at I6 as well. Etc, etc. So a lot of kills will not be striking him in return. At I5 against normal marines then yes the assault squad gets to strike first also, but in a broader picture The Sanguinor has his advantages.

 

 

That's why I didn't factor them in. It is still worth mentionning them though, as some (most) situations will allow you to use them.

 

Agreed but I think we should remember that The Sanguinor has other abilties to make up for the lack of shooting.

 

 

True, but the impact on your army as a whole of losing those Marines vice that of losing the Sanguinor is also not going to be the same.

 

Yes, but at an average of 72 normal attacks to take down him down I would say he can take that stuff out before they take him out. However against more elite stuff I think those assault marines are going to die pretty quickly. Perhaps a run using termies with ten fist attacks.

 

assault marine:

10 attacks -> 5 hits -> 4.16 wounds -> 4.16 dead assault marines

 

Sanguinor:

10 attacks -> 5 hits -> 4.16 wounds -> 1.38 wounds off The Sanginor

 

In the second round of combat after this, the assault marines will have less attacks by 4 marines worth, also not to mention they are probably losing the combat here big time and could be running away. This is what I meant by The Sanguinor has more staying power. In the next round, those assault marines will be all but dead, while The Sanguinor will be most likely to be cleaning up combat. Lets try a first round combat and see what happens.

 

assault marines:

4 Priest attacks, 20 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 2.66 priest hits, 10 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 1.77 priest wounds, 6.666 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 2.255 dead terminators (0.295 from priest, 1.11 from ASM, 0.85 sarge)

 

The Sanguinor:

6 attacks -> 4.66 hits -> 3.88 wounds -> 2.56 dead Terminators

 

So The Sanguinor is hitting harder against the termies than the assault squad with the priest even without the extra attacks he passes onto other units. SO when the terminator hit back with 3 models (we'll say that 2 died in each case above)

 

against assault marines:

6 attacks -> 3 hits -> 2.5 wounds -> 2.5 dead assault marines

 

against The Sanguinor:

6 attacks -> 3 hits -> 2.5 wounds -> 0.825 wounds on the Sanguinor.

 

So more times than not the assault marine lose the combat against the terminators while more time than not The Sanguinor wins combat against the terminators. So whats happens in round 2? Well the assault squad losses their furious charge ability and all their attacks for charging. I'll be generous and allow you only 2 dead guys instead of 3 in the last round for assault marines.

 

assault marines round 2:

3 Priest attacks, 10 normal attacks, 2 fist attacks = 1.98 priest hits, 5 normal hits, 1 fist hits = 0.99 priest wounds, 2.5 normal wounds, 0.83 fist wounds = 1.135 dead terminators (0.165 from priest, 0.42 from ASM, 0.55 sarge)

 

Sanguinor round 2:

5 attacks -> 4 hits -> 2.64 wounds -> 1.74 dead terminators

 

So in round 2 the margin for The Sanguinor gets bigger.

 

Over the two rounds, The Sanguinor kills 4.30 terminators. The assault marines take out 3.39 terminators. So more than likely in the third round The Sanguinor only has 1 terminator to deal with in combat, whereas the assault squad still needs to deal with two most likely.

 

So hits back against the assault squad

4 attacks -> 2 hits -> 1.66 dead marines (4.16 running total)

 

Hits back against The Sanguinor

2 attacks -> 1 hit -> 0.83 wounds -> 0.25 wounds on The Sanguinor (1.1 wounds running total)

 

After second round of combat. Once again the assault marines have lost combat while The Sanguinor has once again won the combat.

 

The assault squad are now at 4 dead marines and so have 3 priest attacks, 4 normal attacks and 2 fist attacks for the third round of combat. Meanwhile The Sanguinor is still dishing out his full attack power.

 

 

It will depend entirely on the disposition of the enemy. From personnal experience, it is not that hard to get 10 guys into a fight.

 

Sometimes but more times than not a couples of marines are usualy downed. Sometimes its not uncommon for squads to bite the dust. In that 500pt doubles tournie I played in last week, that Dark Reaper Exarch that I was talking about took out most of a ten man squad and then he used a D Cannon to finish them off. He didn't even need line of sight to see them and also negating cover saves for it all.

 

That said, say I take your argument at face value - this also means that the Sanguinor's aura is less valuable. After all, if the whole unit is not able to get in on the action, that is a bunch of +1 attacks that are not getting made as well.

 

Yes, true, but remember its a balance of what The Sanguinor can bring to the combat himself and also what he can provide others while doing it. If the assault squad is strong then his aura is strong to pass on to them, if the assault squad is weak then The Sanguinors attacks will do more damge than them when they get there. So the Sanguinor wins out in both scenarios. In the scenario in which he losses, is the scenarion where he is shot down, but then again if your opponent is shooting at The Sanguinor while leaving your assault squads alone because he is frightened by him then thats a win situation for you also since you prefer to have their attacks in close combat rather than The Sanguinors. Obviously I would prefer The Sanguinor myself.

 

 

Your math is off because the Scorpion Chainsword gives them S4, not S5, and they have WS 4, not 5. The correct math is as follows:

 

Well I did say that. I know it gives them +1S but I wasn't sure if their base was S3 or S4.

 

 

27 attacks = 13.5 hits = 6.75 wounds = 2.25 dead (let’s round up to 3, just to be nice)

 

Are striking scorpions not hitting on 3s? I'm pretty sure their weapon skill is higher than yours.

 

So it should read

 

27 attacks = 17.82 hits = 8.91 wounds = 2.94 dead

 

7 Marines fight back (no FC this time): 17 normal attacks, 3 fist attacks = 8.5 normal hits, 1.5 fist hits = 5.666 normal wounds, 1.25 fist wounds = 3.13 dead Scorpions (1.88 from normal attacks, 1.25 from fist).

 

Yes.

 

 

Victory by 0.88 for the Marines.

 

Actually no, the margin is actually smaller than that. On average you kill 3 each and its a drawn combat.

 

 

But that’s not a very good example, is it? Let’s run this with the Priest + ASM squad from earlier to see how that compares to Sanguinor. Both Scorprions and Marines strike simultaneously thank to FC:

 

Scorpions kill 1.125 marines now due to FnP

 

ASM + Priest kill 4.76 scorpions, winning the fight by 3.64 wounds.

 

OK, I will check the numbers when I get home. However I'm sure The Scorpions are hitting on 3s here as Elder have higher weapons skill than marines EXCEPT for guardians. So you you're dead marine pile should be bigger, although my calcs suggest only by a fraction.

 

With the correct numbers, Sanguinor still kills 3.888 but the scorps only do 0.75 wounds to him, meaning he wins by 3.13.

 

Did you remember that The Sanguinor hits first here? So those 4 dead scorpions happen before they hit back. So they only do 0.625 wounds to him. So the margin is 3.263.

 

Sure but The Sanguinor will still outperform those assault marines in subsequent rounds of combat and also The Sanguinor will provide more kills for the assault squad with his ability. about 1/3 of the ones you mentiones above. So The Sanguinor will contribute another 1.5 dead Striking Scorpions to the combat.

 

See how that works :P

 

As shown above, at equal points value, Priest + ASM are still better damage-dealers than Sanguinor. As for tailoring to the argument, is that not what you did yourself when you chose Marines as the target in your initial comparison, completely ignoring horde-type units?

 

I thought everybody used MEQ around here in their calcs ;)

 

 

That is extremely dependant on the situation. Is the Warboss in Mega Armour? Heavy Armour? Does he have the 5+ invul? Is he accompanied by a Painboy?

 

I suppose it is. What do you reckon is the best set-up?

 

If you`re looking at a Warboss with Klaw and ‘Eavy armour alone, for example, the ASM + Priest from earlier actually still do a bit more damage (4.875 wounds to 4.74 for Sanguinor, even with all the rerolls). If you add the 5+ invuln, the disparity falls further in favour of the ASM (4.45 wounds to 3.16). If the Boss is in Mega Armour, then it swings in Sanguinor’s favour (4.74 to 2.45). Same thing if a Painboy is present. So it’s not so cut and dry.

 

Can you do the calcs for the warboss with klaw and eavy armour along with The Sanguinors re-rolls.

 

 

Again, very dependant on the type of Elite unit you are talking about.

 

I will wait to see the calcs for the above example to see hwat you mean.

 

 

Well I went back and took that into account above, and it still came out in favour of the ASM + Priest for the Marines, Ork Boyz and Scorpions, so the point stands.

 

It doesn't really, because I showed that with just one squad getting the +1A bonus from The Sanguinor he hands out more damage overall with his attacks plus his ability.

[Xenith]

Man, this thread got into boring post dissection pretty rapidly. No actual conversation.

 

Sanguinor is good if you want a support hero killer, mephy is better at screwing with your opponent's plans.