The Sanguinor

[spartan II]

math hammer huh you people should trust you're gut more if you keep this up you'le be calculating you're movement fase instead of measuring the 6 inches any way id say both make a list 1 with the sanguinor1 with meq from it and vassal test it winnen wins the argument and has brag rights oh and you didn't calculate his fluff points in btw because what is cooler than the sanguinor ariving just at the right time to save youre man from horrors of the warp (read draigo )

[DarthOvious]

Man, this thread got into boring post dissection pretty rapidly. No actual conversation.

 

Sanguinor is good if you want a support hero killer, mephy is better at screwing with your opponent's plans.

 

I think I might be fielding more death company with a chappie if those calcs were correct. My goodness, what absolute carnage.

[DarthOvious]

math hammer huh you people should trust you're gut more if you keep this up you'le be calculating you're movement fase instead of measuring the 6 inches any way id say both make a list 1 with the sanguinor1 with meq from it and vassal test it winnen wins the argument and has brag rights oh and you didn't calculate his fluff points in btw because what is cooler than the sanguinor ariving just at the right time to save youre man from horrors of the warp (read draigo )

 

Well I would, but generally I'm not very good anyway. So I'm likely to be smashed even I took extra points over him. Perhaps some others can test it out though. I've not installed VASSAL either. I'm not sure if I have the time. I usually post here while I'm at work. My free nights are only Monday to Friday and thats from 8pm to 11pm UK time (guy has gotta have his dinner first).

[spartan II]

no problem just trying to keep you guys from tearing each others throath out btw i'm in the pro camp but with no reasons to stack it up i just like the idea of 5 attack DC with rerolls xp

[khurdur]

my take on the sanguinor...

yeah he is an overpriced poster boy for the Blood Angels.

Sure, he'll kill any enemy HQ, but that is only useful if your opponent has Abbadon, Ghazkull or Draigo. And even so, he doesn't do much else. The attack bubble is nice, but not game winning.

 

And, he'll never get to the enemy untouched. He may have a 2+ and 3++, but he has 3 wounds on T4. Even with FnP, you can wounds him. Just dakka him, make him take 10-15 saves and watch him lose most of his wounds. He's too vulnerable.

 

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero...he has a hood, can fly, can shred anything from a gant to a Land raider, and can't be shot down easily as he too has a 2+ w/FnP, but with T6 instead of 4. Bolters wound him on 6 instead of a 4+. And, yes plasma or lascannons can woud, but in cover he'll be fine, and those lascannons won't be hitting tanks or men.

[knife&fork]

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero

 

Why are we putting them against each other? It's perfectly legal to run both :)

[Taz]

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero

 

Why are we putting them against each other? It's perfectly legal to run both :)

 

 

*shudder*

 

All those points, but sweet Emperor... Tag-team champions of the entire Galaxy. It would be like if Big Show and the Hulk teamed up to fight a large room of various baby animals using only gardening equipment. Perhaps in large or Apoc games where you have an enemy unit that's really urgin' for a purgin'.

[SevenExxes]

I think Dante and The Sanguinor make a good tag team. Take Sanguinary Guard as troops with one vangard veteran squad for the The Sangionors blessing on the sergeant. Dante also nerfs the enemy HQ to make it easier for The Sanguinor to kill them.

 

But honestly, Bloods have too many awesome HQ choices. Not that I'm complaining mind you.

[knife&fork]

*shudder*

 

I'm serious. If we want to make the Sanguinor more survivable we have to either block los or make him a lower priority target (preferably both). Who is a higher priority than Mephiston? Ideally everything that we bring to draw attention from him will also benefit from his buffs.

 

Maybe the same could be done with with podding dreads. They can block LoS and DC talon dreads for example are pretty high on most peoples list of things to kill ASAP. Even the shooty variants get a reasonable amount of attacks with the buff.

 

I think any further discussion on this should be in the context of a list, the stats has been math-hammered enough. Not that I consider those calculations unimportant, far from it, but they don't tell the whole story of how a unit performs on the table when part of a complete force.

[Morticon]

Took the math-hammer discussion elsewhere.

Feel free to continue that vein there.

 

Mathhammer stuff

[knife&fork]

It would be too bad if a thread like this ends with everyone taking their ball and going home just because we had a little argument. :)

 

The stats has been worked back and forth so let's breath some life into by trying to fit the deadly cherub in an actual tabletop force. I apologize in advance if this slips into list talk, but I feel it's inevitable if we want to have a productive discussion.

 

I think we can summarize the thread so far by a few statements:

 

1: The Sanguinor is relatively fragile, we need things to block LoS and units higher on the opponents priority list to keep him alive. We also need a FnP bubble nearby.

 

2: The Sanguinor can't tank like Mephiston can, he's more of a support character. There are a few situations where he'll do better than Mephiston but usually we will have to be careful to keep him alive as long as possible.

 

3: To maximize the +1A bubble he should be part of a list with lots of aggressive units, preferably with a high model count.

 

I'd also like to add that to maximize the blessing we should be prepared to look at some unorthodox wargear on the sergeants. In other words, perhaps not take powerfists in every squad (:)) !

 

For the first point, hiding him (since he has no benefit from cover), only two models will do the trick as far as I know. Dreadnoughts and landraiders. Running landraiders and a 275 pt HQ seems unlikely but I'm happy if someone proves me wrong.You could of course put him in a stormraven but since I don't have a lot of experience running them I'll leave that option for someone else to expand upon.

That leaves us with dreadnoughts. Since we need to be mobile we are either looking at lib dreads with wings or any dread in a pod. Lib dreads have the advantage of bringing a psychic hood to the table removing the temptation of taking another HQ. Drop pod assault rules also makes sure we have to invest in a lot of podded units if we are to use them effectively.

The FnP bubble will probably have to come from a JP priest. As much as I dislike taking them I think that an honor guard is a bit pricey considering the other components that has to go into the list. What might work is going all out and taking a killy HG with the chapter banner, but that unit will probably attract way too much attention.

 

The second point is not something we can really plan for when making the list. It's just being careful on the table, being aware of his capabilities and picking your fights. Stick to your battle plan and don't go after nasty units alone.

 

For the third point I think it's best to say that while any unit benefits from more attacks having as many models as possible getting the bonus is preferable. Getting more staying power and being able to torrent out specific models with lots of forced saves is good. Some single models like the DC talon dread will be downright nasty with the extra attack but making it work with the rest of the units we need might prove difficult.

 

 

Thoughts? Suggestions on army comp based on the above?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Sanguinor can't even hide behind a rhino? Wow, that's bad.

 

I've always used a proxy for him that is not so elevated... guess I've been cheating, sorta.

[knife&fork]

Sanguinor can't even hide behind a rhino?

 

I tried a mates today and it's borderline. Unless you are playing on a totally flat table I wouldn't count on a rhino to keep him safe. Preds could sorta work due to the turret but you generally don't want them up and close.

[Drunken Angel]

I would like to see this list include at least a Stormraven carrying 6 DC with Lemartes and a thunder hammer plus DC dread and talons. Make sure the stormraven unloads the DC and dread into combat with the Sanguinor nearby.

The DC and the Sanguinor side by side, it does not get any fluffier.

[The Crimson Cartel]

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero

 

Why are we putting them against each other? It's perfectly legal to run both ;)

 

 

*shudder*

 

All those points, but sweet Emperor... Tag-team champions of the entire Galaxy. It would be like if Big Show and the Hulk teamed up to fight a large room of various baby animals using only gardening equipment. Perhaps in large or Apoc games where you have an enemy unit that's really urgin' for a purgin'.

 

 

HAHA!!! I just got the greatest mental image of Sang ramming Abbadons face into Mephs boot which is placed conveniently on the top turnbuckle, straight out of the hey day of pro wrestling!! :) Lord knows they both have the hair and outfits for it... :tu:

 

Back on topic then...

 

-CC

[Black Memories]

Lengthy, but this is my opinion/experience with sanguinor and some ways to use him.

 

I've actually personally run Meph and Sang. at the same time in 1500-2000 point games. They weren't overly competitive tournament games or anything, but it was always very successful. Only had 1 close game and ended up winning that one. The real problem running them at once is deciding how to support them properly. The significant advantage is while both are on the field, it is very difficult for your opponents to focus down anything that isn't sanguinor or mephiston due to how much firepower it takes to bring down both of them. Add in a storm raven packed with assault terminators and some rhino/razorback shields and your opponents very quickly run into a lot of target priority problems.

 

While offensively sanguinor isn't as destructive as mephiston, he is very powerful, especially as sweeping away other elite targets. No you don't want to throw him up against your opponent's rock unit.....if it's fair. But assault squad + mephiston + sanguinor, or your own assault terminator unit--that isn't a fair fight. It's also a fight you're very likely to win except virtually everything but a 10 man paladin squad with draigo. Sanguinor also wrecks light armor. Sure your assault marines do very well against light armor, but the purifiers inside that rhino or chimera are going to butcher assault marines, where as a Mephiston/Sanguinor combo has a good chance to wipe the purifiers.

 

No, sanguinor isn't going to win a war of attrition very often with an orc boyz unit, but if they run a green tide unit than neither is a lone assault marine squad, so it's a silly comparison. Like has been mentioned a lot, that's fighting a vacuum. Sanguinor has the same significant strength mephiston does-size and speed. Being a single base model and having the speed and ability to get into spots and support assaults with significant force is a major boon to your army, much more so than a 10 man assault squad, also he serves a totally different role than a 10 man assault squad.

 

If your enemy is torrenting AP2-3 shots at sang, they aren't doing it to your assault marines. You don't have to kill 275 points to be worth 275 points, lord knows my stormravens rarely make it past turn 3-4 and almost never kill their points back, but that isn't always their purpose. Since we aren't fighting in a vacuum that is worth mentioning. Also, unlike mephiston, Sanguinor doesn't risk exploding his own head if he gets low on wounds to reach his damage potential, he always has it as long as he's on the board.

 

The biggest draw back of sanguinor, however, IS his 3 wounds. That said, mathhammer aside, sanguinor is perhaps the ultimate example in my personal experience of hot or cold dice. I've had him stack up amazing kill totals in a single game simply because i had a chance to do so. Keep in mind statistical averages are only a very small part of judging probability, also keep in mind you're dealing with binomial distributions, not simple probability. These situations aren't really being mapped as thoroughly as they could be to paint a complete picture. That said sanguinor has a strength mephiston cannot match, and that is a consistent 3+ invulnerable. Will you fail your invulnerable save sometimes? Yes. Can you potentially save everything? Yes. My theory on power weapons is the same as sanguinor in this situation. I want to have the opprotunity to make the saves, even if i may lose regardless. Having the opprotunity for a hot hand is a significant advantage in 40k, you never know when your luck will turn (for good or bad). I've had sanguinor kill a hive tyrant, a 10 man genestealer squad with a brood lord, 8 more genestealers without a brood lord in a single game. Should that have happened? Probably not, but it did. He also killed a tactical marine squad, marneus calgar, and lysander in 1 game, twice. He has also been killed by things shooting at him such as shotgun scouts, eldar guardians, and imperial guardsman, as well as flat out just being annihilated by lascannons via failing those 3+ saves that cost so make it cost many points for his model.

 

The trick to running the sanguinor is don't rely on the sanguinor. Much like a stormraven, if your strategy relies on the sanguinor (or your stormraven) surviving the battle, then you're in a lot of trouble. He can be killed, in fact he dies a lot--but not if properly supported. I also don't think he has to be run in a DoA list, just a list with assault components. He is not a very effective counter charge unit when compared to something like mephiston. He is an assault force augmentation in a codex that fills a specific role that no one else in the codex does (no matter how much one may want to argue it, or it's effectiveness or lack thereof). As crazy as it sounds the OP kind of has it right, though not in the same terms. Sanguinor is a dueling-specialist/soft elite killer and force multiple in a codex action packed with force multipliers (sanguinary priests, elite chaplains, excellent psychic powers, etc.). That's how he should be run, in my opinion, not as mephiston-lite, which so many people see him as.

 

Sorry for the length but I get the vibe that many people have not used Sanguinor extensively or as experimentally as I have, so I thought I would shed some of my insight into running him in a non-DoA environment and other experiences I've had with him. Hopefully this helps. Again this is not based on theory but actual play testing. Sanguinor is both very durable and horrible fragile, it really just depends on your and your opponent's dice. The same could be said for anything in 40k.

[SevenExxes]

Black Memories, that was a mad post. Thanks.

[DarthOvious]

And, he'll never get to the enemy untouched. He may have a 2+ and 3++, but he has 3 wounds on T4. Even with FnP, you can wounds him. Just dakka him, make him take 10-15 saves and watch him lose most of his wounds. He's too vulnerable.

 

Didn't have a problem getting him into combat at the weekend there with full wounds when using him. However mindshackle scarabs pretty much generally screwed me up in combat anyway. My opponent had 3 Necron Lords in total, 1 overlord, 1 destroyer lord and 1 normal lord, all with mindshackle scarabs. We played two games, first game was a draw and the second game was a defeat for me. I screwed up big time in the second game, I don't know what I was thinkiing. I even had death company in a rhino I forgot to disembark with ;) I completely forgot about them and had moved onto the shooting phase :blink:

 

Anyway I choose the Overlord for the re-rolls. When they eventually came base to base after a couple of rounds of combat I managed to pass the mindshackle scarab test, completely slew his lord, only to have him resurrect the next turn and mindshackle me. Needless to say I was really annoyed. :cuss . Unfortunately I was unlucky to have lost a lot of marine that charged with The Sanguinor. I did win combat in the first round but you know how Necrons are with high leadership.

 

On the plus side I found the Librarian with Shield to be great. The 5+ cover save and feel no pain from the priest helped the survivability of the squads immensely in the first game. With the list he runs I think some Libraian Dreadnoughts might be a good idea. I will admit he didn't have a lot of heavy shooting. He had 5 destroyers and a monolith, but that was it really. They'll be immune to mindshackle scarabs adn with shield the heavy shooting shouldn't affect them too much and they can pass that onto nearby squads. Obviously they will have wings so they can keep up with the assault marines and they could also be used to take on the monolith since they will be immune to the door.

 

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero...he has a hood, can fly, can shred anything from a gant to a Land raider, and can't be shot down easily as he too has a 2+ w/FnP, but with T6 instead of 4. Bolters wound him on 6 instead of a 4+. And, yes plasma or lascannons can woud, but in cover he'll be fine, and those lascannons won't be hitting tanks or men.

 

I did say that Mephy was stiff competition. I usually do run with him in a lot of games. His ability to completely maul land raiders and other vehicles is really good but lets not forget that comes from a psychic power that other Librarians can get as well. I know it works better on him since he is toughness 6 with 5 wounds.

[DarthOvious]

I think Dante and The Sanguinor make a good tag team. Take Sanguinary Guard as troops with one vangard veteran squad for the The Sangionors blessing on the sergeant. Dante also nerfs the enemy HQ to make it easier for The Sanguinor to kill them.

 

But honestly, Bloods have too many awesome HQ choices. Not that I'm complaining mind you.

 

After the games at the weekend I found that a squad of Sanguinary Guard with a banner with The Sanguinor quite near can dish out a lot of attacks each, they killed a lot in that combat and I even rolled very poorly for them with lots of misses.

[DarthOvious]

Sanguinor can't even hide behind a rhino? Wow, that's bad.

 

I've always used a proxy for him that is not so elevated... guess I've been cheating, sorta.

 

Technically he does hide behind a rhino. His sword sticks out a bit to see but I think there is a rule for that.

 

By the way I did check the stats for a scorpion and you were correct, they are only WS4 for the base, only the exarch is WS5. I apolgise for that, my bad.

[DarthOvious]

no problem just trying to keep you guys from tearing each others throath out btw i'm in the pro camp but with no reasons to stack it up i just like the idea of 5 attack DC with rerolls xp

 

Yeah its OK. My free time at the weekends I should mention are used up actually playing warhammer. On Saturday I go down to the store for apocalypse and on every second Sunday I go to the gaming club in my town.

[DarthOvious]

Mephiston is far better as heavy hero

 

Why are we putting them against each other? It's perfectly legal to run both ;)

 

I have thought about it, but putting that much stock into my HQ choices is pretty risky. Even in the 2000 pt apocalypse games I don't do that. Perhaps I should try it out.

[DarthOvious]

Sanguinor can't even hide behind a rhino?

 

I tried a mates today and it's borderline. Unless you are playing on a totally flat table I wouldn't count on a rhino to keep him safe. Preds could sorta work due to the turret but you generally don't want them up and close.

 

Yeah, it is close. I found that it was his sword that was sticking out mostly.

[DarthOvious]

1: The Sanguinor is relatively fragile, we need things to block LoS and units higher on the opponents priority list to keep him alive. We also need a FnP bubble nearby.

 

Ideally its best to get a block to LOS. I agree, its a lot easier though since he is only one model rather than a unit. I suppose it depends on the type of terrain you use as well. If you play with a few fortifications and some buildings then its not to bad. Some vehicles can be used also. There is a bit of discussion on the Rhino but I think a Razorback wouldn't be in question.

 

2: The Sanguinor can't tank like Mephiston can, he's more of a support character. There are a few situations where he'll do better than Mephiston but usually we will have to be careful to keep him alive as long as possible.

 

I agree, but lets remember that any Libraian can be S10 with Sanguine Sword. If give him a jump pack and also Shield then you're laughing all the way to the bank.

 

Although next time I'm going to try a suggestion from maximus. He suggested a Librarian with Unleash Rage for all those re-rolls, also conferring them to the squad and to be honest I could have done with them over the weekend there. My dice rolling was bad, even for the Death Company with the Chaplain I had the re-rolls to hit and wound were terrible for me but they did do an immense job in the first game for me.

 

3: To maximize the +1A bubble he should be part of a list with lots of aggressive units, preferably with a high model count.

 

I'd also like to add that to maximize the blessing we should be prepared to look at some unorthodox wargear on the sergeants. In other words, perhaps not take powerfists in every squad (;)) !

 

I found that Sanguinary Guard with a banner is a nice idea. In the first gaem they took out 3 Tomb Spyders thanks to it.

 

 

For the first point, hiding him (since he has no benefit from cover), only two models will do the trick as far as I know. Dreadnoughts and landraiders. Running landraiders and a 275 pt HQ seems unlikely but I'm happy if someone proves me wrong.You could of course put him in a stormraven but since I don't have a lot of experience running them I'll leave that option for someone else to expand upon.

That leaves us with dreadnoughts. Since we need to be mobile we are either looking at lib dreads with wings or any dread in a pod. Lib dreads have the advantage of bringing a psychic hood to the table removing the temptation of taking another HQ. Drop pod assault rules also makes sure we have to invest in a lot of podded units if we are to use them effectively.

 

Well I would include Razorbacks to the list above also. I just ran with The Sanguinor to help keep him behind it. The trick is to move over 12", so 13" at least to get your 4+ cover save and then fly with The Sanguinor and run behind the Razorback for complete cover. Of course you try and chance a larger move if you want your Razorback to be a bit closer.

 

 

The FnP bubble will probably have to come from a JP priest. As much as I dislike taking them I think that an honor guard is a bit pricey considering the other components that has to go into the list. What might work is going all out and taking a killy HG with the chapter banner, but that unit will probably attract way too much attention.

 

Something in your army is always going to attact some attention. The list I had at the weekend included The Sanguinor but also a Libraian with Shield. That way you really do get flying Termies in concerns to shooting.

 

 

The second point is not something we can really plan for when making the list. It's just being careful on the table, being aware of his capabilities and picking your fights. Stick to your battle plan and don't go after nasty units alone.

 

Agreed. I should also mention that to make full use of the Sanguinor try to get him into range with other units for the +1 attack bubble. Sometimes sticking him into a combat alone will work, but its best to pick your target and be aware of his capabilities like you mention but also into combat near another combat so another squad within 6" can benefit.

 

 

For the third point I think it's best to say that while any unit benefits from more attacks having as many models as possible getting the bonus is preferable. Getting more staying power and being able to torrent out specific models with lots of forced saves is good. Some single models like the DC talon dread will be downright nasty with the extra attack but making it work with the rest of the units we need might prove difficult.

 

I agree, it works best when elite units get the extra attacks.

[DarthOvious]

Lengthy, but this is my opinion/experience with sanguinor and some ways to use him.

 

I've actually personally run Meph and Sang. at the same time in 1500-2000 point games. They weren't overly competitive tournament games or anything, but it was always very successful. Only had 1 close game and ended up winning that one. The real problem running them at once is deciding how to support them properly. The significant advantage is while both are on the field, it is very difficult for your opponents to focus down anything that isn't sanguinor or mephiston due to how much firepower it takes to bring down both of them. Add in a storm raven packed with assault terminators and some rhino/razorback shields and your opponents very quickly run into a lot of target priority problems.

 

While offensively sanguinor isn't as destructive as mephiston, he is very powerful, especially as sweeping away other elite targets. No you don't want to throw him up against your opponent's rock unit.....if it's fair. But assault squad + mephiston + sanguinor, or your own assault terminator unit--that isn't a fair fight. It's also a fight you're very likely to win except virtually everything but a 10 man paladin squad with draigo. Sanguinor also wrecks light armor. Sure your assault marines do very well against light armor, but the purifiers inside that rhino or chimera are going to butcher assault marines, where as a Mephiston/Sanguinor combo has a good chance to wipe the purifiers.

 

No, sanguinor isn't going to win a war of attrition very often with an orc boyz unit, but if they run a green tide unit than neither is a lone assault marine squad, so it's a silly comparison. Like has been mentioned a lot, that's fighting a vacuum. Sanguinor has the same significant strength mephiston does-size and speed. Being a single base model and having the speed and ability to get into spots and support assaults with significant force is a major boon to your army, much more so than a 10 man assault squad, also he serves a totally different role than a 10 man assault squad.

 

If your enemy is torrenting AP2-3 shots at sang, they aren't doing it to your assault marines. You don't have to kill 275 points to be worth 275 points, lord knows my stormravens rarely make it past turn 3-4 and almost never kill their points back, but that isn't always their purpose. Since we aren't fighting in a vacuum that is worth mentioning. Also, unlike mephiston, Sanguinor doesn't risk exploding his own head if he gets low on wounds to reach his damage potential, he always has it as long as he's on the board.

 

The biggest draw back of sanguinor, however, IS his 3 wounds. That said, mathhammer aside, sanguinor is perhaps the ultimate example in my personal experience of hot or cold dice. I've had him stack up amazing kill totals in a single game simply because i had a chance to do so. Keep in mind statistical averages are only a very small part of judging probability, also keep in mind you're dealing with binomial distributions, not simple probability. These situations aren't really being mapped as thoroughly as they could be to paint a complete picture. That said sanguinor has a strength mephiston cannot match, and that is a consistent 3+ invulnerable. Will you fail your invulnerable save sometimes? Yes. Can you potentially save everything? Yes. My theory on power weapons is the same as sanguinor in this situation. I want to have the opprotunity to make the saves, even if i may lose regardless. Having the opprotunity for a hot hand is a significant advantage in 40k, you never know when your luck will turn (for good or bad). I've had sanguinor kill a hive tyrant, a 10 man genestealer squad with a brood lord, 8 more genestealers without a brood lord in a single game. Should that have happened? Probably not, but it did. He also killed a tactical marine squad, marneus calgar, and lysander in 1 game, twice. He has also been killed by things shooting at him such as shotgun scouts, eldar guardians, and imperial guardsman, as well as flat out just being annihilated by lascannons via failing those 3+ saves that cost so make it cost many points for his model.

 

The trick to running the sanguinor is don't rely on the sanguinor. Much like a stormraven, if your strategy relies on the sanguinor (or your stormraven) surviving the battle, then you're in a lot of trouble. He can be killed, in fact he dies a lot--but not if properly supported. I also don't think he has to be run in a DoA list, just a list with assault components. He is not a very effective counter charge unit when compared to something like mephiston. He is an assault force augmentation in a codex that fills a specific role that no one else in the codex does (no matter how much one may want to argue it, or it's effectiveness or lack thereof). As crazy as it sounds the OP kind of has it right, though not in the same terms. Sanguinor is a dueling-specialist/soft elite killer and force multiple in a codex action packed with force multipliers (sanguinary priests, elite chaplains, excellent psychic powers, etc.). That's how he should be run, in my opinion, not as mephiston-lite, which so many people see him as.

 

Sorry for the length but I get the vibe that many people have not used Sanguinor extensively or as experimentally as I have, so I thought I would shed some of my insight into running him in a non-DoA environment and other experiences I've had with him. Hopefully this helps. Again this is not based on theory but actual play testing. Sanguinor is both very durable and horrible fragile, it really just depends on your and your opponent's dice. The same could be said for anything in 40k.

 

I appluad this post. Absolutely brilliant.